Boycott The Qatar World Cup?

[shamans]

Is your coworker involved in the U.S. World Cup?

Read above. A lot of the migrant deaths have no linkage to the world cup either! That DW article itself is theorizing (completely on its own) that it's different construction projects

 

[Relevated]

Their foreign policy and Iraq is worthy boycott reasons on their own.

On top of that

School shootings
Invasions and proxy wars
Gay club shootings
Violence towards non white citizens
Involvement in toppling of other governments


But people will find some type of excuse

 

[Bert_]

15000 foreign workers out of 1.8 million foreign workers died in a 10 year period in Qatar. .

6500 foreign workers out of 1 million foreign workers from South Asian countries died in the same 10 year period. Contrary to what many of you guys might think not all Indians, Pakistanis, Sri Lankans etc in Qatar are labourers. But look at how what accounts for over 50% of the population doesn’t come close to 50% of the deaths in the same 10 year period.

So 1 in 120 foreign workers die? Is that a good stat?

No idea what you're on about in your second paragraph.

 

[AlPistacho]

You might want to read the rest of the article you’re quoting…

It’s easier to deceive someone than to

Apologies I don't understand this bit mate?

It’s not like say USA where if you looked at total deaths over a 10 year period due to say poor medical treatment. You might see certain groups make up a bigger slice of the pie.

 

[MUnchies]

I don't share the view that every loosely related topic is whataboutery, but if you so desperately want to shut down the discussion of these viewpoints, then report the post instead or don't reply.

He is Mr. Whataboutism. He uses that word in literally every post like he just found the word.
If you have a slightly different opinion he freaks out and screams whataboutism

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

The bitter truth for folks living in the west (including myself) is that our lifestyles cannot be sustained without the suffering of someone else in the world. Exploitation is key to the way we live.

Qatar is doing something to employ South Asians with no opportunity at least and it's disturbing to see us sitting cushy in the west raising a finger while doing nothing for it. Qatar labor obviously does not have the standards of U.S or England/wester Europe but then how many countries do?

I like that in two posts a person can go from sounding like J. Sakai to sounding like Matthew Yglesias.

 

[AlPistacho]

So 1 in 120 foreign workers die? Is that a good stat?

No idea what you're on about in your second paragraph.

Over a 10 year period for a total of 15000 out 1,800000.

Are foreigners are immune from death wherever you are? That is really all we can do. Compare living standards to others countries and compare death rates.

 

[JustAGuest]

So 1 in 120 foreign workers die? Is that a good stat?

No idea what you're on about in your second paragraph.

1 in 120 perfectly healthy young men I assume. Not to mention the working conditions regardless of whether it leads to death or not.

 

[Bert_]

Over a 10 year period for a total of 15000 out 1,800000.

Are foreigners are immune from death wherever you are? That is really all we can do. Compare living standards to others countries and compare death rates.

No, but not at that rate. Assuming the 15k is spread over ten years then that's over 10x the amount in the UK which includes UK citizens, not just foreign workers. And the UK has at least 20x the population of Qatar.

 

[MackRobinson]

He is Mr. Whataboutism. He uses that word in literally every post like he just found the word.
If you have a slightly different opinion he freaks out and screams whataboutism

It's quite childish, especially since I've already said I disagree with any human rights violations committed by Qatar. I guess I'm expected to pile on and pretend boycotting the World Cup isn't peak hypocrisy. Interestingly:

Accusing an interlocutor of whataboutism can also in itself be manipulative and serve the motive of discrediting, as critical talking points can be used selectively and purposefully even as the starting point of the conversation. (cf. agenda setting, framing, framing effect, priming, cherry picking). The deviation from them can then be branded as whataboutism.

 

[AlPistacho]

1 in 120 perfectly healthy young men I assume. Not to mention the working conditions regardless of whether it leads to death or not.

We’re speaking about 80-88% of the entire population. I’m not sure of age, most would have been screened for certain diseases.

It is absolutely fascinating how the lies/mislead of the media are so easily ignored even when pointed out. People often talk about the media of other countries but continuously remain blind to their own.

Those with a mind will have taken on board some of my posts and at least had a rethink for themselves. If you hate something be right about it and hate it for your own reasons.

 

[MUnchies]

It's quite childish, especially since I've already said I disagree with any human rights violations committed by Qatar. I guess I'm expected to pile on and pretend boycotting the World Cup isn't peak hypocrisy. Interestingly:

Not you. I am talking about he poster you quoted Rhyme Animal, even if you don't agree with Qatars ethics but have a slightly different opinion than his he screams whataboutism.

 

[JustAGuest]

We’re speaking about 80-88% of the entire population. I’m not sure of age, most would have been screened for certain diseases.

It is absolutely fascinating how the lies/mislead of the media are so easily ignored even when pointed out. People often talk about the media of other countries but continuously remain blind to their own.

Those with a mind will have taken on board some of my posts and at least had a rethink for themselves. If you hate something be right about it and hate it for your own reasons.

I choose to trust documentaries showing the work conditions there, but I'm guessing they were faked as well.

 

[AlPistacho]

No, but not at that rate. Assuming the 15k is spread over ten years then that's over 10x the UK rate which includes UK citizens, not just foreign workers.

It’s death from all causes and not just at the work place. Could have been sitting at home, driving, shopping.

 

[shamans]

I like that in two posts a person can go from sounding like J. Sakai to sounding like Matthew Yglesias.

Because it means you either are against exploitation and then there's a lot to boycott OR you are okay with some exploitation as long as it's done under certain conditions.

 

[MackRobinson]

Not you. I am talking about he poster you quoted Rhyme Animal, even if you don't agree with Qatars ethics but have a slightly different opinion than his he screams whataboutism.

I understand and I'm agreeing.

 

[2mufc0]

If you care so much about working conditions, let the migrant workers into your countries then?

They are shipped off to Rwanda or left to drown in the Mediterranean around here.

But on the wider picture the worldwide capitalistic system has enabled the worker exploitation we see in many countries .

 

[Hanks]

https://www.iranintl.com/en/202211279876

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Qatar can go to hell. Hopefully USA will win on Tuesday, so this murderous regime can't use success on the pitch as a propaganda campaign.

 

[Boavista]

We’re speaking about 80-88% of the entire population. I’m not sure of age, most would have been screened for certain diseases.

It is absolutely fascinating how the lies/mislead of the media are so easily ignored even when pointed out. People often talk about the media of other countries but continuously remain blind to their own.

Those with a mind will have taken on board some of my posts and at least had a rethink for themselves. If you hate something be right about it and hate it for your own reasons.

But you realise you're doing the exact opposite by turning a blind eye to the things we do know? Some examples:

Qatar refusing to investigate the cause of migrant worker deaths, refusing to release statistics that could clear up the narrative of disproportional worker deaths.

Qatar making it illegal for "bachelors" to live in residential family areas, by which they mean the entire city, unless those bachelors essentially don't work in construction. So they've basically getthoised the migrant work force, cut off from the city. The living conditions have been shown in various documentaries.

Many migrant workers have been withheld wages for months at a time, and when protests happened they'd often just deport those and bring in new migrants.

 

[Bert_]

It’s death from all causes and not just at the work place. Could have been sitting at home, driving, shopping.

I can't find the equivalent stats but even so it's still higher than the overall UK death rate which includes people dying of old age, infant mortality, cancer etc etc. Migrant worker deaths will be several orders of magnitudes lower.

 

[Pintu]

I can't find the equivalent stats but even so it's still higher than the overall UK death rate which includes people dying of old age, infant mortality, cancer etc etc. Migrant worker deaths will be several orders of magnitudes lower.

Death rate (restricted to people of similar age) in the countries of origin is the only reasonable comparison. Comparing the death rate among young workers to death rate of old people makes no sense whatsoever.

 

[Boavista]

Death rate (restricted to people of similar age) in the countries of origin is the only reasonable comparison. Comparing the death rate among young workers to death rate of old people makes no sense whatsoever.

I don't think comparing the death rate to the countries of origin is that reasonable, because in theory Qatar has the means to provide better working conditions as opposed to Nepal, India etc.

We'll likely never get statistics that definitively prove something, but isn't that part of the problem? It's been reported that Qatari doctors were forced to fill out death certificates as natural causes, cardiac arrest etc which doesn't mean anything.

 

[Bert_]

Death rate (restricted to people of similar age) in the countries of origin is the only reasonable comparison. Comparing the death rate among young workers to death rate of old people makes no sense whatsoever.

I agree. But comparing all UK deaths to Qatar migrant worker deaths and Qatar migrant workers still ending up a higher % is bad enough.

Edit - But still not a great measure. Was just trying to make the point that that number of presumably healthy people dying is something that should concern people.

 

[Giggsyking]

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[maniak]

Nice try but no. For those of us who have lived in the middle east, and acknowledge where qatar lacks there is a lot of obvious western propaganda.

If anything it shows hypocrisy of western nations to me and the power of propaganda.

Boycott Qatar for something that has no proof but won't boycott your cellphone made in China which dont get me started on

Western propaganda, hypocrisy and phones made in china? Bingo! What's the prize.

I guess it's western propaganda and my phone made in china sending people to prison for being gay. I guess it's western propaganda when we literally have qatari gay citizens who fled to other countries telling us how bad things are.

But hey, random western folk whose normal reaction to human rights abuses would be "feck that, it's disgusting" are now online deflecting these abuses right left and centre. Yeah it doesn't prove at all sportswashing works.

Sad state of affairs.

 

[maniak]

Yeah. Qatar are rejoicing that their billions have made dozens of Caf posters post differently on an internet forum. Yay, sportswashing

C'mon mate, don't play dumb. If you interact with people you know it works. I had a coworker who is generally very sensible who really wanted to watch the WC live so he basically told people other countries also mistreat people one way or another. I'm sure every single person has examples like these. So it works, it works very well.

 

[maniak]

And for those making fun of the whataboutism accusations, just read the last few (not that few) pages. Are we discussing qatar? Not anymore. Job done.

There's a reason people use, it's really effective.

 

[Pintu]

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Basically calling out the officials' hypocrisy without using the word.

 

[AlPistacho]

But you realise you're doing the exact opposite by turning a blind eye to the things we do know? Some examples:

Qatar refusing to investigate the cause of migrant worker deaths, refusing to release statistics that could clear up the narrative of disproportional worker deaths.

Qatar making it illegal for "bachelors" to live in residential family areas, by which they mean the entire city, unless those bachelors essentially don't work in construction. So they've basically getthoised the migrant work force, cut off from the city. The living conditions have been shown in various documentaries.

Many migrant workers have been withheld wages for months at a time, and when protests happened they'd often just deport those and bring in new migrants.

Working laws in the ME, especially for foreign labourers and maids have been very bad for decades. But have started to improve especially the requirement for employers to hold onto passports and similar stuff. I think in many gulf countries that has been outlawed.

Regarding living conditions for labourers clearly not good. In what country do the lowest paid workers live in good conditions? Your waiter at your local Indian restaurant might share rent a grotty house with 6-10 people.

If you’re accused of murder based on false evidence. Are you really going to cooperate with your accusers ? It’s actually the job of the accuser, in this case the media, to gather accurate and real evidence to present a case.

Also I kind of don’t like the “migrant” term in this situation. Because technically all non Qataris in Qatar are foreign workers. Or if we class migrants as people who go abroad for better opportunities (regardless of time frame) than all of them, including westerners, are migrants. I know westerners for some reason don’t like to be called migrants/immigrants even when we move or go work abroad for a period. So we make up words like expat for ourselves.

 

[AlPistacho]

I can't find the equivalent stats but even so it's still higher than the overall UK death rate which includes people dying of old age, infant mortality, cancer etc etc. Migrant worker deaths will be several orders of magnitudes lower.

Around 11000 people died in the U.K. last week. We can start from there I suppose. Then do guesstimates based on age, and population size.

 

[AlPistacho]

I choose to trust documentaries showing the work conditions there, but I'm guessing they were faked as well.

Not necessarily. But if I set out with the objective of. “ London is the most dangerous City of Earth” I could easily make it look true even when it’s not. On the flip side I could also make London look like the most safe City on earth. The amount of work that the viewer would have to do to realise that London is neither, but does have a problem although nowhere near as bad as some other cities is something most viewers won’t do.

Don’t forget just a few weeks ago residents from Dover were complaining about the BBC going to prove a narrative. Basically they were seeking only people with very strong anti migrant views and ignoring the rest. And the one person who did get on with a moderate opinion was not shown again on later airings.

 

[AlPistacho]

Basically calling out the officials' hypocrisy without using the word.

Agreed. Only countries I’d currently want any WC not held are countries that are actively at war. So Russia, Iran (war against its people) Saudi/UAE, also China for its treatment of Uyghurs eg concentration camps, forcing Uyghurs women to marry Han Chinese men etc.

I know that then adds the but what about those that sell arms to the aggressors. But there has to be a cut off point in my opinion. As detestable as the arms trade is it is a trade that exists and it’s how nations collaborate, build relationships, and of course make money. Also don’t forget a lot of consumer tech originates from the stuff the military developed.

 

[Boavista]

Working laws in the ME, especially for foreign labourers and maids have been very bad for decades. But have started to improve especially the requirement for employers to hold onto passports and similar stuff. I think in many gulf countries that has been outlawed.

They've improved on paper, but many have spoken out that it's frequently not enforced. They might not hold on to passports anymore, but still require employer permission to change jobs so it's still massively unfair. Also withholding pay is another cruel way that doesn't give the workers any choice, that works in a similar way to withholding their pasport. And those reforms were only implemented after a lot of the work had already been done anyway.

Regarding living conditions for labourers clearly not good. In what country do the lowest paid workers live in good conditions? Your waiter at your local Indian restaurant might share rent a grotty house with 6-10 people.

While that's true and a failure of the system, it's not by design like the zoning laws in Qatar that literally create ghettos that are cut off from the actual cities.

If you’re accused of murder based on false evidence. Are you really going to cooperate with your accusers ? It’s actually the job of the accuser, in this case the media, to gather accurate and real evidence to present a case.

It's not false evidence just because it's not conclusive evidence. The information, individual anecdotes and the statistics they've gathered raise big questions that Qatar refuses to answer. And your example isn't really convincing in this context, because that's not really how it works in international relations. I think that's a very lazy defence personally. China refusing to let international observers inspect the Xianjang internment camps doesn't really exonerate them by saying "it's actually your job to gather accurate and real evidence to present a case".
There isn't freedom of press in either of these countries, so it's kind of hard to follow up and gather that evidence when doing so is actively resisted, by preventing access to these places or even arresting journalists asking too many questions.

Also I kind of don’t like the “migrant” term in this situation. Because technically all non Qataris in Qatar are foreign workers. Or if we class migrants as people who go abroad for better opportunities (regardless of time frame) than all of them, including westerners, are migrants. I know westerners for some reason don’t like to be called migrants/immigrants even when we move or go work abroad for a period. So we make up words like expat for ourselves.

I agree with that.

 

[stevoc]

They are BS because they are not all deaths from inhumane conditions. Weird you link that article there which I just read in full and makes the exact same claim. That the deaths are of total migrant workers and not those working on stadiums as well as no deaths on the stadiums.

I'm not sure I or the article claimed all 15,021 deaths were due to inhumane working conditions? I agree they won't have all been due to the harsh working conditions. But that doesn't make the stats BS, you are missing the point. Which is given high number of deaths among young relatively heathy people a significant number of them will be due to the working conditions in Qatar. How many exactly we will never know because Qatar seem to keep very poor records on the cause of migrant workers deaths and investigate very few of them.

Whether or not someone who died worked on the World Cup project is largely irrelevant if they died because of the poor conditions. Wouldn't you agree?

You may care and let migrant workers in but the officials complaining about this wouldn't dare to do it. Qatar is doing something to employ South Asians with no opportunity at least and it's disturbing to see us sitting cushy in the west raising a finger while doing nothing for it.

So Qatar are doing them a favour in your opinion?

Qatar labor obviously does not have the standards of U.S or England/wester Europe but then how many countries do?

No they obviously don't have the same standards given the large amount of deaths. But given their wealth they should be able to afford their construction workers much safer working conditions.

There are a lot of preconceived notions about Qatar and a lot has been propelled because of that. Just like the "slaves" argument

Honest question do you think Qatar treats all of these migrant workers well?

Because I've seen/read many first hand accounts from people who work/worked there that paints quite a different picture.

 

[Giggsyking]

But the DW article confirmed that more than 15,000 workers did die in Qatar over a 10 year period (the actual number is almost certainly higher). Just because they didn't die working specifically on the World Cup project doesn't make it ok that so many died due to the working conditions there. And certainly doesn't absolve Qatar from blame for a lot of those deaths.

Excuse me sir. We have multiple times explained that this number is natural to the size of the population and not out of proportion at all. How many times do we need to explain that this number is being misused. You should criticize their human rights records and rightly so. But to to throw numbers being misused by the media is not right at all.

The guardian 6500 number is from workers from India, Pakistan, Nepal, Bangladesh and Sri Lanka that is 1.8m person, that is 56% of the total population of Qatar. That number is the total number of deaths from these nationalities who died in the past 10 years, i,e 650/ year of 1.8m.
That means the death rate per 100k of these nationalities is ~36
Even if you take the number reported by amnesty int, the 15021, from the total 2,7m non qatari population that is about 550 deaths per 100k in 10 years, which make it ~55 per 100k/ year

Compared to the UK in the aprox the same age group (20-50) and sex (mainly males) is ~100 deaths per100k/year. Double the numbers of deaths in Qatar.
These numbers are not at all out of proportions, the opposite their numbers in Qatar are much better than countries like the UK. Even if we take all sexes in the UK data, still the number is around 80 per 100K/ year and higher than Qatar.

My question to you, why are the number of deaths of migrant workers in Qatar is much lower than the number of deaths of people in the same age group and sex in the UK?
Should amnesty international open an investigation in the UK to investigate the cause?

all numbers are taken from official statistical website including the WHO.
https://www.who.int/data/gho/data/t...-health-estimates/ghe-leading-causes-of-death

 

[MarylandMUFan]

Iran wants the USA kicked out of the WC: https://www.cnn.com/2022/11/27/foot...-klinsmann-2022-world-cup-spt-intl/index.html

 

[stevoc]

Excuse me sir. We have multiple times explained that this number is natural to the size of the population and not out of proportion at all. How many times do we need to explain that this number is being misused. You should criticize their human rights records and rightly so. But to to throw numbers being misused by the media is not right at all.

Is it not? Ok so the Qatari government says the proportion of migrant workers dying in their country is in fact lower than to a comparable amount of people from their home countries. But they are comparing them to the total populations of all age ranges in their home countries. Not just healthy men of working age. That is misleading, this article covers that.

https://www.dw.com/en/fact-check-how-many-people-have-died-for-the-qatar-world-cup/a-63763713

Compared to the UK in the aprox the same age group (20-50) and sex (mainly males) is ~100 deaths per100k/year. Double the numbers of deaths in Qatar.
These numbers are not at all out of proportions, the opposite their numbers in Qatar are much better than countries like the UK. Even if we take all sexes in the UK data, still the number is around 80 per 100K/ year and higher than Qatar.

My question to you, why are the number of deaths of migrant workers in Qatar is much lower than the number of deaths of people in the same age group and sex in the UK?
Should amnesty international open an investigation in the UK to investigate the cause?

Not sure on your stats of 100 per 100,000k in the UK as I don't have the time to check but I'll assume that's true. Then you have to take causes of those deaths into account. I believe (someone can correct me if I'm wrong) the 5 biggest causes of death for males aged 20-50 in the UK are Traffic accidents, Violence, Suicide, Drug use and Alcoholism. Do you imagine any of those causes of death are prevalent amount the Migrant worker populations in Qatar?

If you find the same stats for working men 20-50 per year in the UK that would be a fairer comparison.

 

[shamans]

I'm not sure I or the article claimed all 15,021 deaths were due to inhumane working conditions? I agree they won't have all been due to the harsh working conditions. But that doesn't make the stats BS, you are missing the point. Which is given high number of deaths among young relatively heathy people a significant number of them will be due to the working conditions in Qatar. How many exactly we will never know because Qatar seem to keep very poor records on the cause of migrant workers deaths and investigate very few of them.

Whether or not someone who died worked on the World Cup project is largely irrelevant if they died because of the poor conditions. Wouldn't you agree?


So Qatar are doing them a favour in your opinion?


No they obviously don't have the same standards given the large amount of deaths. But given their wealth they should be able to afford their construction workers much safer working conditions.


Honest question do you think Qatar treats all of these migrant workers well?

Because I've seen/read many first hand accounts from people who work/worked there that paints quite a different picture.

If it's something we don't know why are we so sure about it? All based on a gut feeling?

Money is not the only thing. China as money as well. Different countries mature and evolve socially at different rates. U.S or England are highly developed societies and that's not just due to the money but years of struggle and fighting for social justice.

You're gonna compare the countries with the most developed social justice systems to Qatar a country that got rich relatively very recently (90s) and expect it to be the same?

These things can't suddenly be forced they need time to develop and events like the world cup help towards that.

So yes I'm sure there are accurate accounts of poor labor practices but how is this conveniently ignored for every other country until the world cup is hosted in the middle east?

The talk about slaves really should raise red flags on some of the propaganda out there. While we are having these nuanced discussion the broader public opinion shaped by mass media is that Qatar has basically killed 10k migrants building their stadiums. How is that a fair reflection?

The severity of it matters. Having a "one death is too many" stance does not help and is not fair. Even in NYC workers have died building skyscrapers, but we have some of the best conditions for labor. Qatar is most likely not at that level but definitely not using "slave labor".

 

[shamans]

Is it not? Ok so the Qatari government says the proportion of migrant workers dying in their country is in fact lower than to a comparable amount of people from their home countries. But they are comparing them to the total populations of all age ranges in their home countries. Not just healthy men of working age. That is misleading, this article covers that.

https://www.dw.com/en/fact-check-how-many-people-have-died-for-the-qatar-world-cup/a-63763713



Not sure on your stats of 100 per 100,000k in the UK as I don't have the time to check but I'll assume that's true. Then you have to take causes of those deaths into account. I believe (someone can correct me if I'm wrong) the 5 biggest causes of death for males aged 20-50 in the UK are Traffic accidents, Violence, Suicide, Drug use and Alcoholism. Do you imagine any of those causes of death are prevalent amount the Migrant worker populations in Qatar?

If you find the same stats for working men 20-50 per year in the UK that would be a fairer comparison.

What the DW article also fails to point out is a lot of rich/well to do Indian Pakistani Bangladeshis etc have moved to Qatar for jobs as well. These are not construction workers and have regular desk jobs. These can 40-70 year olds.

So no it's not all young folks. Either way, that's no way to draw conclusions from statistics. You either have them at hand or you don't. You cant say "they're probably healthy". You could then say they are labor workers from poor cities in Pakistan and probably have poor health in the first place.

So again where are solid statistics on immigrant deaths that Qatar is responsible for?

 

[Robbo's Shoulder]

So do you have any proof of this? Even from biased western sources I've not read anything solid.

Have you ever even been to Qatar and how the system works? And if you're gonna say I wouldn't dare step into that shite hole, do you know anyone personally who has? Maybe you could talk to them.

FYI I work in a fancy tech company here in the U.S that you hear on the news a lot. We have a Chinese coworker who is here on a company sponsored visa (not H1B). My manager makes him work like a dog because he can't seek another job here due to visa status and he doesn't wanna go back to china.

Should we boycott the American world cup now due to exploitation?

Have you spoke up in support of your co worker?