Pretty much.
Lionel Messi | PSG Watch
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik @Rood and Imran @Annihilate Now! start with the good news by celebrating Manchester United Women's emphatic FA Cup win over Spurs at Wembley and the future of manager Marc Skinner.
Then it's the bad news and the ever worsening form of our Men with losses to Arsenal and Palace.
Finally the main debate - ETH Out now or keep him until the end of the season - if not longer. Are you Team Nik or Team Imran?
Thought for 10 years that he is the best player of all times. I think at this stage he is also the greatest player of all time, and would put him above Pelé.
And a second Golden Ball from the World Cup. Would be the first player ever to do so.
The golden ball for the world cup has to be secured. I don't see other player being better than him at this point at this tournament.
France are a good team and Mbappe can be unstoppable but Griezmann is their best player for me.
France are a good team and Mbappe can be unstoppable but Griezmann is their best player for me.
Messi will win it unless Mbappe goes crazy in the semi and final.
Agreed! People are so obsessed with status and standing. What's forgotten is that any footballer wants to win the WC first and foremost ... to win a WC for his country. Besides to decide such things based on a single game seems utterly moronic and I mean that both ways. What clown says Messi is the goat because his team won THIS match 1-0. Or the other way round.
What is certain is that at age 35 he has produced a fantastic display at this WC - a bit like Zidane in 2006 - with better numbers and dragging of team and worse opponents. It's a privilege, as it was with Zizou, to watch greatness remind everyone of its presence.
It's bandied around here too. Its nonsense. Fergie considered his 2006 squad the strongest he'd ever built at the time. Ronnie has played for the biggest team in Britain, the biggest team in the world(Madrid) and the biggest team in ItalyListening to Piers Morgan trying to make the case for Ronaldo as GOAT, bringing nonsensical arguments you'd expect from Ronaldo PR teams and those who suck him off in the media. Dude literally said Messi has had to play with world class players surrounding him at Barcelona his whole career while Ronaldo had to do it with nothing around. What the hell is wrong with idiots like these? Ronaldo has literally played with multiple Ballon D'or winners surrounding him for feck sakes.
The nerve to pretend that Ronaldo didn't play in a stacked Real Madrid team surrounded by elites of the elites at their craft is incredibly astounding
Imagine you're Benzema, Modric, Kroos, Casemiro, etc, listening to these PR7 fanboys in the media dismissing you to hype their boy.
Still lots of the CL campaign left. I honestly think the voters will feel that Messi has won his share now. Also i think Mpabbe simply is a better player at this point. No shame in that. He's an amazing talent and in his prime.
He doesn't have to go crazy. They have a quality team. But I'd fancy Otamendi crumbling against him.
Listening to Tears is pretty much like giving time to those mental Ronnie superfans - not worth itListening to Piers Morgan trying to make the case for Ronaldo as GOAT, bringing nonsensical arguments you'd expect from Ronaldo PR teams and those who suck him off in the media. Dude literally said Messi has had to play with world class players surrounding him at Barcelona his whole career while Ronaldo had to do it with nothing around. What the hell is wrong with idiots like these? Ronaldo has literally played with multiple Ballon D'or winners surrounding him for feck sakes.
The nerve to pretend that Ronaldo didn't play in a stacked Real Madrid team surrounded by elites of the elites at their craft is incredibly astounding
Imagine you're Benzema, Modric, Kroos, Casemiro, etc, listening to these PR7 fanboys in the media dismissing you to hype their boy.
World cup years, the WC achievements always weight a lot more than anything else. I mean Fabio Cannavaro, a defender(1 of only 3 defenders to ever do it) won it mostly due to the WC. Then you have Modric, etc. Whoever seals the WC for their country will likely win it. They both play for PSG which means their achievements there won't give neither the advantage over the other.
The WC will decide the Balon Dor. It's far more significant than the CL. I think Mbappe will win the WC and his first Balon Dor starting his (and whoever rivals him like Halaand etc) new era.
I expect @SportingCP96 to be there as well.
That’s because the tournament was at the end of the season, it’s what people remembered
He needs to win to be ahead of Maradona but he has done it longer so it’s up for debate.
Yeah silliest argument ever.Listening to Piers Morgan trying to make the case for Ronaldo as GOAT, bringing nonsensical arguments you'd expect from Ronaldo PR teams and those who suck him off in the media. Dude literally said Messi has had to play with world class players surrounding him at Barcelona his whole career while Ronaldo had to do it with nothing around. What the hell is wrong with idiots like these? Ronaldo has literally played with multiple Ballon D'or winners surrounding him for feck sakes.
The nerve to pretend that Ronaldo didn't play in a stacked Real Madrid team surrounded by elites of the elites at their craft is incredibly astounding
Imagine you're Benzema, Modric, Kroos, Casemiro, etc, listening to these PR7 fanboys in the media dismissing you to hype their boy.
He also said Ronaldo has scored more goals than Messi, he's scored 28 goals more but played 142 more games. People compare them like they're the same age... If Ronaldo never plays football again and Messi continues and retires after he equals Ronaldo's apps, he'll have all of his goal scoring records as well. Ronaldo knows this, why is he so insistent on playing and destroyed his relationship with our fanbase.
Even the different league argument he's spouting is rubbish. So if Messi joined Juve he wouldn't win a title ? If we had Messi instead of Ronaldo with Rooney, Tevez etc. We wouldn't have won a league ?
He can destroy Rio and Vida in a ucl final but would apparently struggle against Huth and Shawcross when there's some drizzle. Ok.
Ronaldo is lucky Messi doesn't care about records or this whole argument because if he decided to join City (Thank God he didn't) when he left Barca they would have no leg to stand on.
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As good as he is, I actually don’t think that assist and run against Gvardiol was anything crazy. I keep seeing people astounded by it and I’ve seen him do things I consider much more impressive before. I think the defending there was a bit comical to be honest
What a surpriseWe’ll never know. It’s best to just stick to what they’ve actually accomplished/done instead of these woulda/coulda/if scenarios - if you’re going to engage in these arguments to start with.
Messi evidently has done enough as it is to be lauded by what’s seemingly the majority as the best ever. Ronaldo doing it in multiple top European leagues is a positive bullet point for Ronaldo that Messi doesn’t have. No need for these fairy tale fanfictions in which Messi has/woulda done the same. Football has plenty of examples in which that doesn’t always translate.
I very much doubt Messi doesn’t care about records. That assertion to me is also partially why this was always a losing battle for Ronaldo. The public perception of both of them is set, and it’s the total opposite, with it favouring Messi. That’s Ronaldo’s damage though.
I see he's been absent since the weekend...
Although, to be fair, I do appreciate that he still found time to troll in the 'let's all laugh at England' thread
Exactly this and tbh I just don't see it. Messi will win it for sure
What if he dribbles past the entire French team 3 times to score a hat trick, but then the Argentine defence collapse and concede 4 howlers. Would he then not qualify as being better than Maradona? Having such a black and white view of individual achievements in a team based sport is so flawed
You’ve never seen Messi do better than that? Top speed wasn’t particularly impressive, he didn’t even do his usual slalom, he just changed pace a couple times and body feint/checked him once. I’m not saying it would be easy to stop - I’m saying most defenders would have fouled him before it got to what it go to, hence why it was comical to me.
Whatever bias you might think I hold, I don’t think that’s among the most impressive things I’ve seen Messi do, but alas
Exactly, then it shouldn't be used as a 'positive bullet point for Ronaldo that Messi doesn't have' as using it as a positive bullet point for Ronaldo would be using a woulda/coulda/if scenario but this time you'd be saying Messi woulda flopped in the PL and struggled against Shawcross and Huth on a Wednesday night in Stoke.
No ?
Thinking Messi can't do it in multiple leagues is an assumption just like thinking he can, therefore it can not be used as a 'positive bullet point for Ronaldo'. Using your own logic.
If Messi beats France in the final but PSG wins the CL with Mbappe as their top player/scorer, I don't think the Ballon d'Or will be guaranteed to Messi
No. If you perceive doing “XYZ” as a positive and A has done “XYZ” you highlight it as a positive for A. That doesn’t necessarily translate into “B wouldn’t have been able to do XYZ”. It’s simply “B hasn’t done it”
The value one places on XYZ will differ from individual to individual and each person can reserve the right to not care about it at all. Again, even without such, Messi has evidently done enough to be classed at the best that’s ever played.
Yeah agreed. There was a time during the MSN time at Barca, and if memory serves, they used to give any penalty they got to any one of the trio who hadn’t yet scored, if the other 2 had both scored.
If he wins the WC. If Mbappe does win the WC instead he'll be the favorite to win Ballon D'or. Messi winning the WC would seal it for him, he'd have so much narrative in his favor.
You’ve never seen Messi do better than that? Top speed wasn’t particularly impressive, he didn’t even do his usual slalom, he just changed pace a couple times and body feint/checked him once. I’m not saying it would be easy to stop - I’m saying most defenders would have fouled him before it got to what it go to, hence why it was comical to me.
Whatever bias you might think I hold, I don’t think that’s among the most impressive things I’ve seen Messi do, but alas
you said you want to taste his tears ffsAlso for prime Messi, sure. But 35 year old Messi doing that to the best performing defender in the tournament who doesn't lack pace / athleticism in a WC semi is a bit special.
Yeah it’ll be close as Messi’s racked up decent numbers this season for PSG as well and they’re neck and neck at the WC, albeit Messi has more assists. But I don’t see PSG getting past Bayern (they drew Bayern right?) anyway.
Yes but if A has done "XYZ" and B hasn't had the opportunity to do "XYZ" it can't be used as an argument for A over B unless your argument is B would not have been able to do "XYZ".
It's like saying Ronaldo hasn't done it in Dijon or Ajjacio but Messi has as a positive for Messi but then It would only be a positive for Messi if I'm assuming Ronaldo wouldn't be able to do it there....
I disagree. WC simply weight a lot more and the narrative surrounding Messi finally winning the WC would be insane. You'd have to assume that if PSG win the CL, Messi would have to be playing exceptionally even if Mpabbe is the top scorer and performer. A good CL run/winning it plus leading his country to a WC would certainly guarantee it for him in my opinion.
I’ve only seen him play live once and I’m bloody glad I have. I can’t believe though that it was a game at Tannadice.
You have to understand these debates are also narrative driven, not just pure skills and such. There is a romanticizing of what Maradona did in 86 for Argentina which elevates his status, not that Maradona wasn't a wizard and freak himself. He led an Argentina team who weren't the favorite to a title which boost his legacy and through rich legacies is how these players add themselves to these goat debates.
Also for prime Messi, sure. But 35 year old Messi doing that to the best performing defender in the tournament who doesn't lack pace / athleticism in a WC semi is a bit special.
But that’s not related to me assessing said run and assist. I want to see Messi/Argentina in the mud - my post history is consistent on that regard. I’m a fan of Mbappe - to me he could be the legend killer - and I want to watch him holding Messi’s carcass on the biggest stage. Break his spine like Bane did Batman and toss him to the bushes while majority of redcafe panics and doesn’t know what to do. I dream of it. I need it in my veins.
None of that matters in regards to what I’m said about that specific run though. Gvardiol was hilariously bad there. I just don’t think much of it.
For the record, I think Messi might indeed be the best of all time and I’ve said this before.
It's almost impossible for a single player to stop a Liverpool team when they're in full flow at anfield. That night all their stars aligned. How could he have stopped a ball boy having an assist in their 4th goal? Or the shoddy defending for all the goals conceded?
In the first leg Messi was inspirational and if Dembele had of scored that sitter Messi put on a plate for him it would of been 4-0 and chances are the 2nd leg would of been a different ball game. Very small margins. One player can only do so much and Messi wasn't the reason they eventually went out.
You’re using circular logic. That’s why I said the value one places on XYZ will differ from individual to individual and each person can reserve the right to not care about it at all.
If you consider doing it against Dijon or Ajaccio a positive, you can indeed list that as a positive for Messi as it is something that Ronaldo hasn’t done. It doesn’t mean people won’t laugh at it though.
Exactly, so the use of the argument of Ronaldo has done it in different leagues for being better than Messi, is an assumption that Messi wouldn't be able to do it in said league.
Which is exactly that you stated using a 'woulda/coulda/if' argument....
So you choosing to use that as an argument for Ronaldo over Messi is the exact same as me saying I think Messi would do alright against Huth and Shawcross.
Because if you were just listing accomplishments of Ronaldo I'd understand. Using it as an argument for Ronaldo over Messi however, is an assumption. Just like mine...
It’s not. Again, if you’re engaging in these arguments you’d list their accomplishments. Ronaldo has done it in three major European leagues. Messi hasn’t. That’s just a simple fact. It’s a plus for Ronaldo that doesn’t involve an assumption that Messi wouldn’t. He hasn’t. It’s that simple. How much you care for it is up to you. This shouldn’t be hard to grasp.
If you’re counter argument is that Messi done it against Dijon, you can rightly deserve the right to do so
Asking people to prove a negative is comical. Especially when discussing football.