I think from the wing these days, and in theory from the #8 position. Tough to see anywhere else.
Can anything but a #10 ever be the best player of all time or even in the discussion?
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I believe that one day, the center backs of all center backs will arise and he will be a machine. A goal wouldn’t be conceded in his back line for more than one season. He’ll be a true leader, a captain who betters all his defenders and team mates.
His defense would be so perfect, you’d think he’d be a high end lawyer who charges 50,000 an hour.
A defense force so strong, the lads of 300 would tip their helmets.
He would be the known as “The defense that was promised.”
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I think it's less about the position but more about scoring plus contributing. The three mentioned have set the bar very high since they could dribble, pass and score like the very best specialists. Those players are usually 10s but we already see with Messi that they sometimes play like this from other positions as well.
One way or another I don't believe a classic 9 for example like Haaland or Lewandowski would ever been seen as such, even with the current goal obsession.
One way or another I don't believe a classic 9 for example like Haaland or Lewandowski would ever been seen as such, even with the current goal obsession.
If Yaya Toure did his 13-14 season for 10+ seasons perhaps?
Attacking player yes, but doesn't really matter which position.
Fred?
The game has since evolved and moving towards to wing forward system, with best players over past decades mostly playing in such position, instead of traditional no.10.
Top wing forward (excluding Messi):
- Ronaldo (won 5 Ballon D’ors, scored 800+ goals)
- Mbappe (WC winner, looks likely to dominate the next decade football)
- Neymar (most talented player of this generation, with his peak level just behind Messi/Ronaldo)
- Salah (best player from best league)
other upcoming best young players:
- Vinicius Junior (won CL, top 3 player in new generation)
- Foden (key player for best team in England, top 5 player in new generation)
- Leao/Felix/Rodrygo/Antony (other top/most talented players from new generation)
Top no.10:
- Dybala?
- Griezmann?
- Bruno?
Top no.9:
- Lewandowski
- Haaland
- Harry Kane
I’d say given the new trend of football:
Top WF > top no.9 > top no.10
Top wing forward (excluding Messi):
- Ronaldo (won 5 Ballon D’ors, scored 800+ goals)
- Mbappe (WC winner, looks likely to dominate the next decade football)
- Neymar (most talented player of this generation, with his peak level just behind Messi/Ronaldo)
- Salah (best player from best league)
other upcoming best young players:
- Vinicius Junior (won CL, top 3 player in new generation)
- Foden (key player for best team in England, top 5 player in new generation)
- Leao/Felix/Rodrygo/Antony (other top/most talented players from new generation)
Top no.10:
- Dybala?
- Griezmann?
- Bruno?
Top no.9:
- Lewandowski
- Haaland
- Harry Kane
I’d say given the new trend of football:
Top WF > top no.9 > top no.10
Premier League, the famous Ballon d’Or winners breeding ground?
Obviously right backs can be in contention for this topic.
I still remember when Micah Richards burst onto the scene.
I still remember when Micah Richards burst onto the scene.
I genuinely didn't realise that the general consensus was that Beckenbauer wasn't one of the GOATs any more. Growing up he was always in the conversation with the likes of Pele, Maradona and Cruyff.
I also don't understand how some people try and shoehorn Cristiano into these conversations. He clearly isn't as good at football as some of the other names mentioned. There's a special place in history for all time great goalscorers but it doesn't make them some of the all time best footballers as someone like Gerd Muller can attest to.
I also don't understand how some people try and shoehorn Cristiano into these conversations. He clearly isn't as good at football as some of the other names mentioned. There's a special place in history for all time great goalscorers but it doesn't make them some of the all time best footballers as someone like Gerd Muller can attest to.
Irrelevant. Ronaldinho has transcended our concept of "positions".
I think GOAT discussions are about players who can also create a lot and score. Football is won by scoring which means creating chances and putting them away. So if you have a player who can do both then, they will be considered the best. I think considering the question in terms of role rather than position would make the most sense. In this sense then Ronaldinho is clearly a creator/goalscorer.
re. C. Ronaldo. Of course the thread isn't intended to downplay him (I don't play down a footballer's ability via my dislike for them), but best player of all time he was not perceived to be by anyone other than his fans with his overall game and inability to influence a match throughout the 90 minutes always being part of the discussion since he turned into a goalscoring machine. The power of influence of all that happens in an atacking sense, up to, and obviously inclusive of goals is weighted much heavier than 'just' a goal, which always will put a divider between #10's and anyone else, I think. pre-injury Ronaldo broke all kinds of comic book walls to even enter the discussion - it wasn't because of his extreme scoring rate alone that he was being regarded as he was, it was because the 'rules' and preconceived structure of the game were knocked down by how he played, and I see that as the only way any other position can enter the discussion against a position that is already fantasy personified.
The conduit to everything is always more revered than the players who start or end a move are. Pele, Messi, Maradona, Cruyff, Beckenbauer and so on are placed above others because of this influence throughout a game rather than in moments, but further to that, the #10 is held in higher esteem still because they are the technical marvel; the one most easily and often hailed for their genius and ability, to go along with the goalscoring and assisting prowess. Wingers have always been praised and held in high regard, but what they do is less sustainable and more erratic than what the great #10's do or did, which is why they tend to fade away rather quickly in these discussions once the minutiae or seasonal breakdowns are discussed. Even then, is what a winger does ever rated above what a #10 does? Going through the heart of a team is considered the hardest route to goal and #10's are held in a particular esteem for being in the thick of the action and still doing what they do right in the heart and central core of the opposition.
re. Messi and the modern wing-forward. I don't believe any sees Messi as anomalous or dissociative of the #10. He was raised as one (clips of him as a 6yr old still being a #10 going through swathes of bodies), plays and thinks like one and even when put in a centre-forward position operated exactly like one. He, Neymar, Ronaldinho and anyone else who had time out wide but still worked toward the same end are still #10's and most certainly not wingers or wide-men in thought or action. The #10 might once have meant standing dead centre between defensive midfielder and ahead of a backline, but it has more scope than that and we don't reduce a #10's actions because they started out wide - nobody claims Maradona was a winger for carrying that 1/4 goal from out wide, for example. Pele often drifted around a catchment of the pitch that wasn't dead centre, but we don't consider it anything but the actions of a #10. I think a Cruyff is more atypical to a #10 discussion than a Messi because of both his intent and starting positions, and if the #14 wasn't his number, the discussion on what he actually was would be broader than it is, where currently he's always seen as a nebulous outlier who belies conventional numbering.
As far as I can tell: Beckenbauer, Ronaldo (fenom), Cruyff, Di Stefano and C.Ronaldo can only be in discussion because they broke the rules of what their respective positions are supposed to do and every one of them is an extreme outlier. There's been no such thing as even a fractional replicant of what they did, so much so as to say they are glitches that don't detract from the subject matter. In the end, the majesty of what #10's are on the pitch to do routes everything in their favour by default. Other positions have to become more than to even compete. Is that not true?
The conduit to everything is always more revered than the players who start or end a move are. Pele, Messi, Maradona, Cruyff, Beckenbauer and so on are placed above others because of this influence throughout a game rather than in moments, but further to that, the #10 is held in higher esteem still because they are the technical marvel; the one most easily and often hailed for their genius and ability, to go along with the goalscoring and assisting prowess. Wingers have always been praised and held in high regard, but what they do is less sustainable and more erratic than what the great #10's do or did, which is why they tend to fade away rather quickly in these discussions once the minutiae or seasonal breakdowns are discussed. Even then, is what a winger does ever rated above what a #10 does? Going through the heart of a team is considered the hardest route to goal and #10's are held in a particular esteem for being in the thick of the action and still doing what they do right in the heart and central core of the opposition.
re. Messi and the modern wing-forward. I don't believe any sees Messi as anomalous or dissociative of the #10. He was raised as one (clips of him as a 6yr old still being a #10 going through swathes of bodies), plays and thinks like one and even when put in a centre-forward position operated exactly like one. He, Neymar, Ronaldinho and anyone else who had time out wide but still worked toward the same end are still #10's and most certainly not wingers or wide-men in thought or action. The #10 might once have meant standing dead centre between defensive midfielder and ahead of a backline, but it has more scope than that and we don't reduce a #10's actions because they started out wide - nobody claims Maradona was a winger for carrying that 1/4 goal from out wide, for example. Pele often drifted around a catchment of the pitch that wasn't dead centre, but we don't consider it anything but the actions of a #10. I think a Cruyff is more atypical to a #10 discussion than a Messi because of both his intent and starting positions, and if the #14 wasn't his number, the discussion on what he actually was would be broader than it is, where currently he's always seen as a nebulous outlier who belies conventional numbering.
As far as I can tell: Beckenbauer, Ronaldo (fenom), Cruyff, Di Stefano and C.Ronaldo can only be in discussion because they broke the rules of what their respective positions are supposed to do and every one of them is an extreme outlier. There's been no such thing as even a fractional replicant of what they did, so much so as to say they are glitches that don't detract from the subject matter. In the end, the majesty of what #10's are on the pitch to do routes everything in their favour by default. Other positions have to become more than to even compete. Is that not true?
Van Dijk at Liverpool is the only defender to podium in the past 10 years, but yeah point taken.
You’d need someone to have a peak Van Dijk season in a defensive competition, and do it over 6-7 years probably.
Oh look! Another tread to make sure CR7 has no place along the best in history.
It's much older, even if we consider only high profile and somewhat formalized examples.
Juan Peregrino Anselmo played as a False 9 under Alberto Suppici (the first World Cup winning manager) in the 1930 edition of the tournament. An even older variant is supposed to be José El Maestro Piendibene under John Harley at Peñarol, who might or might not have inspired Suppici (considering his stint as a player at cross-town rival Nacional).
https://www.nutmegmagazine.co.uk/issue-2/uruguays-world-cup-mastermind/
You don’t even need to go that far back I think Totti played that same position before Messi too(?).
Exactly to a lot of us Haaland will never be in the best ever arguments no matter how many goals he’s scored.
It’s almost as if people think incredible goalscorers just popped up yesterday go back and look at the goal ratios of the likes of Eusebio and Muller who too are rarely put in GOAT conversations and both especially the former had way more to their game than a player like Haaland.
In the 20+ years I’ve been watching football though I’ve never seen someone with the physical aptitude of Haaland to go with the positional and attacking awareness. You can’t make a direct comparison with anyone with Haaland, while Eusebio was better at dribbling and quick too, Haaland is equally quick to go with being 6 inches taller and built like a tank to go with it, and with that ability is able to do the sort of powerful plays that few forwards have been able to do. The problem with tall forwards has always been lacking in pace to stretch or beat a defence but Haaland can do that.
It's perfectly possible to be one of the all-time greats by "just" being a goalscorer. But to be the absolute GOAT you need to have more to your game.
Messi is in a class of his own and I can already say that neither Haaland nor Mbappe will ever reach his level.
Messi is in a class of his own and I can already say that neither Haaland nor Mbappe will ever reach his level.
Yes Haaland is like a cyborg at times but a player like Eusebio for example actually scored more goals than games he played for Benfica (473 goals in 440 games) while being a far more rounded player, just being a great goal scorer isn’t enough for me.
Haaland,Mbappe currently better than any 10.
This is a matter of personal preference, not a fact.
Of course. This is just my opinion.
Ah, fair enough then
It's much older, even if we consider only high profile and somewhat formalized examples.
Juan Peregrino Anselmo played as a False 9 under Alberto Suppici (the first World Cup winning manager) in the 1930 edition of the tournament. An even older variant is supposed to be José El Maestro Piendibene under John Harley at Peñarol, who might or might not have inspired Suppici (considering his stint as a player at cross-town rival Nacional).
https://www.nutmegmagazine.co.uk/issue-2/uruguays-world-cup-mastermind/
I always like reading these things from what we could call a beginning of football, because it helps understand game better.
Mathias Sindelar was probably the first superstar false nine, yet neither him nor his coach Hugo Meissl with his "Wunderteam" pioneered the position and playstyle.
I find it very ignorant when people claim that Guardiola or Spalletti invented the position with Messi and Totti, because it shows a lack of knowledge of the past.
Also the notion that we are seeing the revolution of the formations is overemphasized. We are mainly seeing the evolution, the recycling of concepts that have first been invented hundred or more years ago.
The formation mentioned that you quoted, the 2-3-5, isn't that exactly the thing managers of today are renowned for when team is in attacking phase? The difference being how teams actually fill those positions on the field, whether it's inverted fullbacks joining the midfield with midfielders pushing to forward positions or providing width, or having the width provided by the fullbacks themselves?
But generally speaking, football is hardly creating new concepts, more like improving old ones and making them work in new landscape.
Let's say, hypothetically, Haaland goes on to score more goals than anyone in football history, caveat being he still plays like he currently does. Clumsy and relative to the technical marvels that are #10's, like a donkey, relatively.
How far beyond the mean - how many more goals do you think he'd have to score, or what would he have to do to offset the majesty, creativity and aesthetic appreciation #10's engender by default? C.Ronaldo was a technical marvel compared to Haaland yet was still denigrated for the massive gulf between his creativity and ability to influence a game outside of scoring in it and the collective theirs; Haaland would face even stronger criticism for the way he plays, which isn't even a patch on Cristiano let alone the #10's being discussed. How is that offset?
Good question. He’d probably have to score at a higher rate than Cristiano Ronaldo. Not necessarily more goals as in needing to play until he’s 37 and 1,100 games like Ronaldo, but let’s say Ronaldo has
813 goals from 1,181 games
498 goals from 653 league games
143 goals from 195 continental games
Haaland would probably need to career 1 goal a game it, especially in the Champions League. He’s currently on 32 goals in 29 games in Europe, he’d need to maintain that and play at least 100 more games.
It would also help if Norway qualify for a few tournaments (I’m sure they will, they have a good upcoming team and tournaments are expanding) and he scored 7 or 8 World Cup goals, maybe helping Norway to a quarter final stage at some point in his career.
Haaland does have a wow factor too though in being a physical specimen in being that fast, strong and tall at the same time and that good at finishing. Ronaldo only got that devastating for Real when he was 26 or so (before that it was more about the all round game) whereas Haaland has been that devastating since he was a teenager.
Any greatest-of-all-time contender will need to be able to decide the game in at least two thirds of the park. Any attacker wanting to be considered will need to be able to impact in the middle third, while any defender will need to be able to influence further forward. It's hard to imagine anyone defending better than Baresi, dominating midfield more than Xavi, scoring more goals than Muller. Each of them have maxed out what they can do from their position on the park. But they aren't in the conversation because they didn't transcend their role in the way that Beckenbauer, Cruyff, Maradona and Messi did. Beckenbauer could keep the clean sheet and, if that wasn't enough to win the game, he could move forward and be the best midfielder on the park and win it from there. The same applies in reverse for the attackers: they were all impeccable in the final third, but if their team couldn't get that far forward, they could drop into midfield areas and win the game from there.
That's where Ronado isn't an outlier. He wasn't a 10, but he was a one-man attack who could get the ball anywhere on the park and cause havoc. And if his knee doesn't blow up in 1999 and he has another 2-3 years of brilliance, he'd clearly be in the conversation alongside the other three.
That's where Ronado isn't an outlier. He wasn't a 10, but he was a one-man attack who could get the ball anywhere on the park and cause havoc. And if his knee doesn't blow up in 1999 and he has another 2-3 years of brilliance, he'd clearly be in the conversation alongside the other three.
Suarez scored the most and created most chances in 2014 season.who are these mythical no 10s
QFT.
He did take on some more 10ish characteristics at Inter from memory and his passing improved.
They are all related, yep. And some of the pioneering concepts were extremely attacking — with as many as 8 forwards! As you pointed out, they all influence modern approaches in a myriad of ways.
- The 2—3—5 (also known as the Pyramid) originated in the 19th century, and was the first wide-spread and ultra-successful formation in football (ranging from Britain and the continent at large to South America).
- Then you have a variant of the 2—3—5, with the center forward having more freedom as a deep-lying forward of sorts (with the innovation bring traced to the aforementioned lot, as well as coaches like Hogan and Meisl (which led to the Danubian school moniker)).
- Yet another variant of the 2—3—5: Pozzo's iconic 2—3—2—3 defensive strategy from Italy's World Cup titles (a strong basis for future 4—3—3 variants), where the inside forwards were asked to be more spatially responsible, the halfbacks were repositioned to further secure the outside channels, and the central halfback became a proper conduit and anchor (inspired by Charlie Roberts (United's captain for over a decade), who was arguably the first true defensive midfielder and one of Pozzo's favorites while he studied in Manchester).
A more interesting question would be can a midfielder or number 8 assist 800 goals instead of scoring 800 goals like Messi or Ronaldo and be consider GOAT?
Yea considering their is a #7 who has shared the World stage with a #10 for 15 years and is without a doubt a top 3 player all time alongside two Argentines.
Pele is sitting cozy and comfortably in that #4 position. You would have to be smoking dust to think he’s better then the 3 greatest footballer the game has ever seen bar none. However his importance in football history is obvious so a spot in the Mount Rushmore is guaranteed at least.
So to answer the OP question all you have to do is see the last 15+ years in football.
I also don’t feel like debating Pele again so instead just watch this.
Pele is sitting cozy and comfortably in that #4 position. You would have to be smoking dust to think he’s better then the 3 greatest footballer the game has ever seen bar none. However his importance in football history is obvious so a spot in the Mount Rushmore is guaranteed at least.
So to answer the OP question all you have to do is see the last 15+ years in football.
I also don’t feel like debating Pele again so instead just watch this.
No. The greatest player should be someone who actually plays with the ball. There should be a separate category for greatest defender. Defenders are anti-football.
He definitely is among the absolute greatest. No matter how much he has tarnished his legacy or how he's half the player now that he's pretty much 38, he is still 100% amongst the greatest ever
They are all related, yep. And some of the pioneering concepts were extremely attacking — with as many as 8 forwards! As you pointed out, they all influence modern approaches in a myriad of ways.
- The 2—3—5 (also known as the Pyramid) originated in the 19th century, and was the first wide-spread and ultra-successful formation in football (ranging from Britain and the continent at large to South America).
- Then you have a variant of the 2—3—5, with the center forward having more freedom as a deep-lying forward of sorts (with the innovation bring traced to the aforementioned lot, as well as coaches like Hogan and Meisl (which led to the Danubian school moniker)).
- Yet another variant of the 2—3—5: Pozzo's iconic 2—3—2—3 defensive strategy from Italy's World Cup titles (a strong basis for future 4—3—3 variants), where the inside forwards were asked to be more spatially responsible, the halfbacks were repositioned to further secure the outside channels, and the central halfback became a proper conduit and anchor (inspired by Charlie Roberts (United's captain for over a decade), who was arguably the first true defensive midfielder and one of Pozzo's favorites while he studied in Manchester).
False 9s, inside forwards, mezzalas, underlapping fullbacks, the Makelélé role, collective stuff like pressing and counter-pressing, and so forth — all very classical concepts, albeit fine-tuned and interpreted at very high levels with the passage of time.
Great post, completely agree with your general idea. I don't like it when people underrate football of old without taking into context what it was like back then.
@SportingCP96 Now that it's obvious Ronaldo can't push Messi out of equations, you will try pushing out Pele? Good luck with that. You made yourself extremely ridiculous recently, and you keep digging just deeper and deeper.
EDIT: I've just seen the video that you've posted. Full of shite, but thing that stands out the most is comparing Maradona's World Cup in 1986, Messi's Copa America triumph in 2021, and Ronaldo's role in winning Euro 2016 as if they were on the same level. Delusion is unreal with Ronaldo fanboys.
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I’ve had this opinion my whole life as you can see countless posts about it.
It’s not about pushing anyone out of any equation. I’ve always said Ronaldo Messi and Maradona were the three greatest players ever. You already know who I have at #1 and I know who you have at #1.
That has nothing to do with the statistical evidence that pele in terms of the “GOAT” debate is not comparable to Ronaldo Messi and Maradona. In fact no players in the history of the sport have hit the absolute peak ability of Ronaldo and Messi.
It’s also funny how you point out statistics, literally facts and numbers as “shite “.
Also yes of course you would rank Messi winning a Copa América (which btw argentina have won fecking 15 of before him AND since 1992 only 3 finals have not had Argentina or Brazil in it) over Ronaldo being the key player in Portugal winning their first ever major trophy. You lot don’t do well to hide your hate.
But yes let’s keep gaslighting the South American version of the Gold Cup….