Debatably, he still showed up and had a blinder in the final. That aside, I was arguing this all week that “a one off knock out match surely doesn’t change the GOAT debate” but was sort of shot down because he needed this win. So with this win, he’s gone from arguably, to undisputed GOAT in my books.
Lionel Messi is OFFICIALLY the Greatest Player of all Time (CONFIRMED OFFICIAL)
- Thread starter Pexbo
- Start date
Meanwhile CR73 will be stat padding against Faroe Islands to ensure he remains the highest scoring player on the international stage.
FFS
No longer debatable indeed. What an awful year for Cristiano Ronaldo. He'll probably blame it on us.
It won't be official until you capitalise the word 'all'.
Messi nearly scored as many goals in this months World Cup than he did for all of last season for PSG.
I think that tells us the overrated Poch somehow made one of the World's greatest talents look average.
I think that tells us the overrated Poch somehow made one of the World's greatest talents look average.
I share similar sentiments. Messi has filled those voids with the latest Copa and World Cup.Yes, by a whisker. He was close, but some of the voids in his resumé vis-à-vis Pelé gave me pause (and others too, no doubt...who had lingering hesitiations regarding the legitimacy of such a claim). Messi needed to do a bit more with Argentina (as a supreme inspirational presence, someone whose genius resonated with his team-mates and pushed them over the edge) to match or overcome the greatest international footballer of all time (as well as one of the greatest club footballers of all time when you look at mid 1950s to late 1960s Santos). And he's done exactly that — winning the 2021 Copa América (as the official Best Player) and the 2022 World Cup (as the official Best Player, again...while establishing all sorts of historically significant records) since that list was made. Framing him as the top forward of all time is much easier now, as some of the missing narrative strings (from back then) can be neatly tied together.
Pelé was notoriously complete, too. High-volume and crunch-time scorer, ridiculously effective ball-carrier, and oh-so intelligent in terms of offensive passing and general link-up play. But Messi is slightly better, less clunkier and more technically refined, in my subjective opinion. Others might disagree and highlight Pelé's dynamism in most phases of the game (somewhat akin to Griezmann from this World Cup) or specific features like devastating heading ability (where he was up there with Sándor Kocsis, Uwe Seeler or Gerd Müller for aerially supreme attackers from the time) to make a stronger case for him, and that's fine — these were two anomalistic forwards (comparable in terms of overall efficaciousness but quite dissimilar from a stylistic perspective). All things considered: Pelé was the Messi of his era, and Messi is the Pelé of his era; two peas in a pod.
In terms of their play, I also agree with your viewpoints. I do think Pele could have been even greater in today's game since he was so ahead of his time, and all the advancements in medicine/training probably leads to him having similar longevity to Messi. Not that Pele lacks in longevity since he was excellent as well, but it does fall short a bit of Messi's, because I think Messi has been far better than Pele was at like 29 or 30 years of age onwards. That said, it's unfair to punish Pele for being born too early and being ahead of his time. Another thing that likely helps Pele today is that he'd rack up probably more goals considering the gap between the best sides and lesser sides has only increased with time and his goal-scoring records could perhaps be more impressive than they already are. That's all subjective though, and we can only judge on what happened and not on what ifs
Messi is a bit more refined technically(him and Maradona are the 2 best in this regard for me) and is more machine-like with his efficacy on the field. Pele's dynamism leads to more moments of unrivaled greatness perhaps, but Messi's supreme refinement also leads to less erroneous play which likely wields a greater success for the team dynamic overall. Pele's aerial prowess also does add an element of efficacy in the box that Messi lacks, but I think Messi somewhat negates that for being a more refined passer.
I think both of them have claims for being the best goal-scorer of all time, best ball-carrier of all-time, best link-up player of all-time, greatest player in finals(think Pele bests Messi in G+A per 90 in this regard, but don't quote me).
Super close either way. Would slightly lean Messi as well, but I might be a teeny biased since he's my favorite player of all time
Messi is a level above all of those at 35 imo.
Pure conjecture.
Not sure, they've all been playing at a high level, Modric finished 3rd at the world cup and won the champions league, saying that Benzema hasn't been half bad and he's pushing 35 too. Messi has been great at the world cup but his PSG form hasn't been at the same level.
The Father Pele, The Holy spirit Maradona and the Son Messi.
It is finally complete.
It is finally complete.
Still Maradona for me but Messi runs him close.
You forget that the improvements in sports science that make todays defenders so much better would also improve those attackers
Messi has 35 goals and 30 assists in 51 games for Argentina and PSG in 2022. He has been class for PSG this season.
Agreed, but now he has led Argentina to such an iconic WC win -whilst setting numerous WC records- there is simply far less to dispute it.
Fairytale ending for a magical player. Lionel Messi is undoubtedly the GOAT!
The World Cup victory should once and for all shut the Ronaldo v messi argument up - and by quite some margin too in my opinion.
and I also think he probably is the goat. The one thing that will always be debated though is that maradona dragged a lowly Napoli to European glory whilst messi has been playing with world class players during his entire club career - but his longevity, sustained club level success and the 5 finals cops / World Cup finals he’s now been is also on another level.
this will be an amazing memory for many of us when we see the highlights in 20 years time for sure
and I also think he probably is the goat. The one thing that will always be debated though is that maradona dragged a lowly Napoli to European glory whilst messi has been playing with world class players during his entire club career - but his longevity, sustained club level success and the 5 finals cops / World Cup finals he’s now been is also on another level.
this will be an amazing memory for many of us when we see the highlights in 20 years time for sure
You just don't give up, do you
.Messi was the better playmaker too though
horrible take, Messi was the one who took Argentina ahead several times. Emi should be thanking messi
Pretty much, yes.
So first off I want to congratulate Lionel Messi. Amazing achievement.
Secondly I admire your attempt of trying to throw a jab, it was cute. You wanted my attention so I’ll give you it for a little bit
So I will just end it with this because it’s very simple and not even questionable.
I know it’s Messi’s day but this is unquestionable. Ronaldo won the second most important international trophy with a country that has zero international history.
This World Cup was only the third time Portugal ever got passed the R16. Ronaldo is the first Portuguese player to ever played passed the R16. That’s how little history we have.
What Ronaldo did for Portugal will always mean more then what Messi did for Argentina because Portugal before Ronaldo won nothing and achieved nothing.
Argentina has won a lot before Messi and they will continue to win a lot without him. That to me is the difference.
So denouncing him the “goat “ because of this win is honestly silly.
Winning a World Cup is a lottery on if you are born into one of the sports super powers. Argentine made 2 of the last 3 World Cup finals. Portugal have only made it passed the R16 3x…in every WC ever.
Put Ronaldo in the teams argentina and Messi have had and their is a very much likely possibility they have more copas and would have won the World Cup earlier.
I’ll let you celebrate your day because now you can attempt to finally say Messi surpassed Ronaldo but just had to give you that lovely dose of reality. You can tell how excited you were because you felt the need to gloat.
Enjoy the win, congrats to Lionel Messi, congrats to Argentina, and congrats to every Argentine in the forum. Argentina were one of the favorites to win the tournament and they proved it. Fantastic team and well done !
If it wasn’t for emi argentina lose to the Dutch and to France. That save in the 120 minute won argentina the world cup.
Cristiano was not a better dribbler or passer than Best, and Messi is not a better dribbler than Pele.
And what does that even mean they can be the greatest but not the best?
Coach, captain and president.. of the Portuguese FA.. let’s make Ronaldo great again. MRGA hat and pearly white teeth.
I'm gonna be so happy once Ronaldo and Messi retire so this shit GOAT debate can be forgotten or thrown to one side. Just enjoy the feckers play.
Absolute Bollocks. Complete and utter bollocks.
Nah. Probably lifting the second biggest competition in the sport and the first time ever do it for Portugal. His impact for his country is unmatched .Messi lasting memory will be him lifting the world cup for his country.
Ronaldo lasting memory will be him bitching to Piers fecking Morgan
I would have to agree to this now for sure. My view could have been different had it not being for that interview. Just like a lot of other United fans I've always had that soft spot for Ronaldo regardless of where he played. Messi is a GOAT with Ronaldo closed second.
"3-peat" is so incredibly cringe.
Incorrect, what Messi has done as a footballer surpasses Maradona by a fair distance.
He has 0 (
) world cup KO stage goals or assists.He was a bench player in this year's tournament in the KO stages. How bad do you think he's going to be in 4 years' time?
As he said, his biggest dream was to win the world cup. He failed miserably at that while Messi just cemented his goat status.
It's absolutely beautiful.
People is trying too hard to crown him the GOAT. I mean, what's the purpose? Have you watched enough games of Pele, Maradona, Beckenbauer, Di Stefano or other greats to make up your mind?
Saying that, it's hard to see any footballer can top off Messi in terms of skill, playmaking, and longevity at the very top level. And this WC is just a showcase of his mentality to "carry" a team to greatness.
Saying that, it's hard to see any footballer can top off Messi in terms of skill, playmaking, and longevity at the very top level. And this WC is just a showcase of his mentality to "carry" a team to greatness.
Curse those previous Argentine successes! Messi didn’t stand a chance in the debate because of something out of his control!
Bemused how the above apparently puts him on par (or better) than Messi. Each to their own.
I keep seeing new photos of Messi with the trophy, and I just can’t get bored of them.
Do you Ronaldo Stan's have no pride or dignity, being unable to admit when you're wrong is a very bad trait to have.
How can people be expected to develop and grow as a person when they cannot be humble and accept defeat or being proven wrong.
It’s not Messi that should be thanking him. It’s the other Argentinians. Messi and Martínez have both played a massive part in them winning this tournament. But your bias will not see that.
I suppose if you believe football is generally played to a higher level now than in the past then someone could be the greatest (as in the best footballer relative to their era) without being better than a current day footballer in terms of a direct comparison of skills or level of play.
Like in Chess for example, where you could argue that Gary Kasparov is the greatest Chess player of all time despite Magnus Carlsen having played a higher level of Chess than Kasparov ever did.
You are really, really clutching at straws and clinging on for dear life, with such poor attempts to condesend Messi's international achievements whilst exaggerating Ronaldo's.