Transgender Athletes

[Mike Smalling]

I really don't envy the women competing at the highest levels of these kinds of endurance/racing sports that seem to be mostly in focus in the trans debate (cycling, swimming, athletics, etc.). It's among the sports where the athletes train and suffer the hardest, so to feel like they are being undercut by a group having an unfair advantage must be difficult. And then there is the risk of the shitstorm if they do speak out. Caught between a rock and a hard place.

They are also going to be fighting a somewhat lonely battle, because the female versions of these sports don't have a big following. Cycling for women, for instance, is still very immature. It wasn't until last year that the Tour de France Femmes was held as a proper stage rage for the first time.

 

[Doracle]

Thanks for that, no idea about cycling so good to hear from someone in the know.

I think it’s worth noting that she could also very easily have eased off if her only target was to “win” the women’s event. My suspicion is that she is chasing her own targets and/or aiming to finish as high up the combined field as possible. I think she deserves a lot of credit for adopting that approach, despite knowing the risk it will potentially be used to fuel an agenda.

 

[Murder on Zidanes Floor]

I think it’s worth noting that she could also very easily have eased off if her only target was to “win” the women’s event. My suspicion is that she is chasing her own targets and/or aiming to finish as high up the combined field as possible. I think she deserves a lot of credit for adopting that approach, despite knowing the risk it will potentially be used to fuel an agenda.

Yeah, that's a good point and I think approaching any sports competition to do you absolute best in commendable and better than someone massaging the win to limit potential fall back.

 

[entropy]

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[Murder on Zidanes Floor]

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Good fecking lord.

 

[Jippy]

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The guy's defence in the linked article is not exactly great, given it was a kid's event.

"I said something appropriate. Not those words. ... Maybe something like 'F off,'" Krista Tesar said Tuesday.

 

[stw2022]

It's become fairly fashionable to pretend not to observe a gulf that exists in the quality of many sports, particularly team ones, that perhaps contributes towards the further denial that there are good very good reasons why sports usually segregate by biological sex.

If you believe men's football is on the same level as women's football - and would consider anyone who contradics that a misogynistic pig - It's a natural, logical progression that you wouldn't see as much reason for trans women not be allowed to compete with those born women.

 

[stepic]

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All of this stuff is now becoming fodder for the culture war.

Each side will now leap on these type of interviews.

good luck having any reasoned discussion when the stuff being posted is full of misgendering as a starting point

 

[stw2022]

Men aren't disadvantaged by any of this and based on that many will struggle to understand why this is a problem. If a biological born male dominates women's sports, the woman that object are subject to abuse, accusations and hatred.

Anyone who wants to pretend that doesn't have roots in misogyny and a patriarchal society is, I dare suggest, kidding themselves.

 

[Murder on Zidanes Floor]

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This is a very interesting overview of a very complicated situation.

 

[Lightbringer]

I really don't envy the women competing at the highest levels of these kinds of endurance/racing sports that seem to be mostly in focus in the trans debate (cycling, swimming, athletics, etc.). It's among the sports where the athletes train and suffer the hardest, so to feel like they are being undercut by a group having an unfair advantage must be difficult. And then there is the risk of the shitstorm if they do speak out. Caught between a rock and a hard place.

They are also going to be fighting a somewhat lonely battle, because the female versions of these sports don't have a big following. Cycling for women, for instance, is still very immature. It wasn't until last year that the Tour de France Femmes was held as a proper stage rage for the first time.

Good logical arguments here.

I have several gay friends and a good friend who has a trans daughter, all of which I support. But when I state that I am against trans women competing against women in sports I am immediately labeled a bigot. So it seems you either have to be on the train 100% or you are spit on and treated as an enemy. Why its not possible to have a rational discussion, I can not tell.

Atm I will support protecting all womens right to compete fairly in sports, over supporting a few transgender athletes who could just as well have their own category in sports because of their obvious physical advantages.

Either I lose a few feminist friends, or I lose a few trans friends, I can not win!

 

[NotThatSoph]

Good logical arguments here.

I have several gay friends and a good friend who has a trans daughter, all of which I support. But when I state that I am against trans women competing against women in sports I am immediately labeled a bigot. So it seems you either have to be on the train 100% or you are spit on and treated as an enemy. Why its not possible to have a rational discussion, I can not tell.

Atm I will support protecting all womens right to compete fairly in sports, over supporting a few transgender athletes who could just as well have their own category in sports because of their obvious physical advantages.

Either I lose a few feminist friends, or I lose a few trans friends, I can not win!

Keep pushing DeSantis, Peterson and Walsh, and maybe you won't have to choose!

 

[Lightbringer]

Keep pushing DeSantis, Peterson and Walsh, and maybe you won't have to choose!

I have no idea who DeSantis is even right now tbh, I have not been following this closely at all.

I had never heard of Peterson or Walsh until 1-2 months ago when I watched "what is a women" and I have not followed them since then, I literally have no beef in this at all.

The only thing I have learned is that whoever is not 100% willing to bow down to the trans community will be bullied and attacked to submission, which I find absolutely ridiculous.

The trans community had a passive ally in me for sure, but after observing the movement the last months I definitely wont be going my way out to support them anymore.

If they want to die on the hill and have trans women coming in and wrecking womens sport, thats just nothing I can ever get behind, and I know long as I disagree with that there is no middle ground even though I have nothing against the trans community in itself. If the trans community are going to require me to obey 100% to their agenda, then its not going to work. I have been called a bigot, extreme right winger by the trans community which is the exact opposite of what I have supported my entire life, that just shows there is something fundamentally wrong going on.

I have friends from all political parties and we disagree on some points and still get along just fine, but this is completely different.

 

[NotThatSoph]

I have no idea who DeSantis is even right now tbh, I have not been following this closely at all.

I had never heard of Peterson or Walsh until 1-2 months ago when I watched "what is a women" and I have not followed them since then, I literally have no beef in this at all.

The only thing I have learned is that whoever is not 100% willing to bow down to the trans community will be bullied and attacked to submission, which I find absolutely ridiculous.

The trans community had a passive ally in me for sure, but after observing the movement the last months I definitely wont be going my way out to support them anymore.

I agree. Talking about mutilation and monsters, pushing people who want to jail and physically hurt doctors, that's just you "not 100 % willing to bow down to the trans community".

 

[Lightbringer]

I agree. Talking about mutilation and monsters, pushing people who want to jail and physically hurt doctors, that's just you "not 100 % willing to bow down to the trans community".

Who wants to jail or physically hurt doctors? I have no idea what you are talking about. So you might want to explain yourself a bit more than that. Anyway, I have never pushed anything about jail or physically hurt doctors so I dont need to answer to that at all.

I do stand firm that its "the monster in the room" (again clarifying the monster is the doctors, therapists, big pharma, the systemtetc that allow this to happen - the victims are the poor kids having the experimental dangerous surgeries, nothing against them, I would not be able to make wise decision at that age either.) to have children or teenagers who are not mature enough to make life altering decisions have life altering surgeries. Just because I dont agree with exactly how things are being handled today does not make me a bigot in any shape or form.

Just because I agree with some of what Peterson or Walsh has said does not mean I have to somehow answer for everything they ever proposed. I dont think everything is black or white. Thats what the trans community needs to realize, not seeking out people who are not against them and provoking them into becoming the enemy.

 

[NotThatSoph]

Who wants to jail or physically hurt doctors? I have no idea what you are talking about. So you might want to explain yourself a bit more than that. Anyway, I have never pushed anything about jail or physically hurt doctors so I dont need to answer to that at all.

I do stand firm that its "the monster in the room" (again clarifying the monster is doctors, therapists etc that allow this to happen - the victims are the poor kids having the surgeries, nothing against them) to have children or teenagers who are not mature enough to make life altering decisions have life altering surgeries. Just because I dont want agree with exactly how things are being handled today does not make me a bigot in any shape or form.

Jordan Peterson. The guy you agree with on doctors being butchers, and trans people mutilating themselves. Then you have DeSantis, who you see as a positive first step, attempting to outlaw vital and lifesaving treatments, and trying to make educators legally required to out trans students.

It's very cowardly to hide behind "just because I dont want agree with exactly how things are being handled today" when your rhetoric is stronger than the majority of right wingers.

 

[Lightbringer]

Jordan Peterson. The guy you agree with on doctors being butchers, and trans people mutilating themselves. Then you have DeSantis, who you see as a positive first step, attempting to outlaw vital and lifesaving treatments, and trying to make educators legally required to out trans students.

It's very cowardly to hide behind "just because I dont want agree with exactly how things are being handled today" when your rhetoric is stronger than the majority of right wingers.

How do I see DeSantis as a first step to anything at all if I dont who DeSantis is? Or wait, now that I googled him I see he wanted to ban gender surgery for minors, which I can agree with unless there was some lengthy investigation that came to the conclusion it was absolutely necesarry with every risk gone through in detail before any treatment starts. I dont see how that is vital and lifesaving treatments though unless you mean the children or teenagers undergoing the surgery would commit suicide immediately if they were told to wait until they are adult age. (not sure how you can ever be sure of that even if thats the argument) As long as there are cases where this has not been followed, there is certainly a reason to raise the alarm to make sure nobody regrets doing this.

Whatever else DeSantis is pushing I have no idea about since I did not know who the guy was before and never followed him.

I dont really understand how it can be so controversial to be against children or teenagers with properly functioning genitalia to have dangerous experimental procedures that will affect them for life and make them dependent on medial treatments as long as they live. I would have a tough time as an adult to make such decisions.

That does not mean I am against adults paying for having for their balls cut off for example, as long as they are "grown adults". If thats still what they want, then fine, I would not stop them.

The only thing that got me into this from the first place was seeing males (trans) outclass women in sports, it would just never be allowed to happen where I reside and I have yet to see one good argument for why it should be allowed at any time or any place! I am a big sports fans and watch alot of women sports so I hate to see this going on!

 

[NotThatSoph]

How do I see DeSantis as a first step to anything at all if I dont who DeSantis is? Or wait, now that I googled him I see he wanted to ban gender surgery for minors, which I can agree with unless there was some lengthy investigation that came to the conclusion it was absolutely necesarry with every risk gone through in detail before any treatment starts. I dont see how that is vital and lifesaving treatments though unless you mean the children or teenagers undergoing the surgery would commit suicide immediately if they were told to wait until they are adult age. (not sure how you can ever be sure of that even if thats the argument) As long as there are cases where this has not been followed, there is certainly a reason to raise the alarm to make sure nobody regrets doing this.

Whatever else DeSantis is pushing I have no idea about since I did not know who the guy was before and never followed him.

I dont really understand how it can be so controversial to be against children or teenagers with properly functioning genitalia to have dangerous experimental procedures that will affect them for life and make them dependent on medial treatments as long as they live. I would have a tough time as an adult to make such decisions.

That does not mean I am against adults paying for having for their balls cut off for example, as long as they are "grown adults". If thats still what they want, then fine, I would not stop them.

You should try google one more time.

https://static1.squarespace.com/sta...0+-+Order+Granting+Preliminary+Injunction.pdf

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/health...or-minors-also-limits-access-for-trans-adults

Thankfully there are laws in place that slow down extremists like DeSantis, Peterson and Walsh, but it can only do so much. A lot of people are going to die over this.

 

[Zarlak]

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I used to live in Kelowna, it's where all the old racists retire so not surprising to see.

 

[Zarlak]

Who wants to jail or physically hurt doctors? I have no idea what you are talking about. So you might want to explain yourself a bit more than that. Anyway, I have never pushed anything about jail or physically hurt doctors so I dont need to answer to that at all.

I do stand firm that its "the monster in the room" (again clarifying the monster is the doctors, therapists, big pharma, the systemtetc that allow this to happen - the victims are the poor kids having the experimental dangerous surgeries, nothing against them, I would not be able to make wise decision at that age either.) to have children or teenagers who are not mature enough to make life altering decisions have life altering surgeries. Just because I dont agree with exactly how things are being handled today does not make me a bigot in any shape or form.

Just because I agree with some of what Peterson or Walsh has said does not mean I have to somehow answer for everything they ever proposed. I dont think everything is black or white. Thats what the trans community needs to realize, not seeking out people who are not against them and provoking them into becoming the enemy.

Minors make life changing decisions all the time as they approach the end of their schooling. We let them on the roads behind the wheel of a killing machine, we let them join the military and fire killing machines, we ask them to make decisions that set the course of their professional life despite being a minor. People love to understate how intelligent kids/young adults are. They're often more intelligent than adults given that they are receiving the latest and most up to date education made up of knowledge agreed on by expert consensus about any given subject where adults have done nothing academic for decades and are very stuck in their outdated views and argue every position from having 0 understanding of the subject whilst being very resistant to change. Adults love to think they're wise because they have 'life experience' which most of the time just consists of decades of working a job they hate, and drinking beer after work while complaining about their lives with little to no learning having taken place that entire time.

 

[NotThatSoph]

Minors make life changing decisions all the time as they approach the end of their schooling. We let them on the roads behind the wheel of a killing machine, we let them join the military and fire killing machines, we ask them to make decisions that set the course of their professional life despite being a minor. People love to understate how intelligent kids/young adults are. They're often more intelligent than adults given that they are receiving the latest and most up to date education made up of knowledge agreed on by expert consensus about any given subject where adults have done nothing academic for decades and are very stuck in their outdated views and argue every position from having 0 understanding of the subject whilst being very resistant to change. Adults love to think they're wise because they have 'life experience' which most of the time just consists of decades of working a job they hate, and drinking beer after work while complaining about their lives with little to no learning having taken place that entire time.

Lightbringer is spreading transphobic lies about how Big Pharma are cutting children's genitals before they're old enough to figure out that Santa isn't real, which would be quite a few years before a non-toy vehicle is an option.

 

[UpWithRivers]

How did we get to the point that the minority rules the majority. I think if there was an official vote - 'Should Transgender people compete in sports in a category other than their sex at birth.' Then the over majority would be no. Wouldn't it? I think the vote would be really clear. Like 80/90 percent. Or am I wrong? I just don't get how they gained so much power when they are what 0.5 percent of the population?

 

[Zarlak]

How did we get to the point that the minority rules the majority. I think if there was an official vote - 'Should Transgender people compete in sports in a category other than their sex at birth.' Then the over majority would be no. Wouldn't it? I think the vote would be really clear. Like 80/90 percent. Or am I wrong? I just don't get how they gained so much power when they are what 0.5 percent of the population?

Who gives a feck what the average lay person who knows the grand total of feck all about the subject thinks about the subject? The majority are fecking idiots. People should always listen to the few that chose to specialise in any given subject. I don't know where this fetish came from of thinking the average person is some kind of academic intellectual.

And to answer your question, the minority have ruled the majority since the dawn of civilization, it's not a strange concept. We actively vote to maintain it as a concept every 4 years so we're ok with the notion when it suits us.

 

[The Boy]

Who gives a feck what the average lay person who knows the grand total of feck all about the subject thinks about the subject? The majority are fecking idiots. People should always listen to the few that chose to specialise in any given subject. I don't know where this fetish came from of thinking the average person is some kind of academic intellectual.

This is what leads to Brexit and Trump, the general population are easily manipulated.

 

[UpWithRivers]

Who gives a feck what the average lay person who knows the grand total of feck all about the subject thinks about the subject? The majority are fecking idiots. People should always listen to the few that chose to specialise in any given subject. I don't know where this fetish came from of thinking the average person is some kind of academic intellectual.

I agree with your premise but in this case I think the average person knows that's its unfair for a biological man to compete in womans sports? Or is there some kind of specialized scientific knowledge that says otherwise?

 

[Zarlak]

I agree with your premise but in this case I think the average person knows that's its unfair for a biological man to compete in womans sports? Or is there some kind of specialized scientific knowledge that says otherwise?

They think they know, but the reality is it's very nuanced hence why actual experts on the subject have found it to be a very difficult conversation. The fact that you think the average person has a good understanding of it is a literal demonstration of my point that the majority are idiots and should not be listened to when it comes to subjects like human rights. I barely trust the general public to give me directions ffs.

 

[M16Red]

This is what leads to Brexit and Trump, the general population are easily manipulated.

What's wrong with Brexit or Trump? People are allowed the choice.

I think, it'll be like this until a trans man kills a woman in a boxing ring or something as tragic as that.

 

[cafecillos]

What's wrong with Brexit or Trump?

Absolutely every single thing about them.

 

[KirkDuyt]

What's wrong with Brexit or Trump? People are allowed the choice.

I think, it'll be like this until a trans man kills a woman in a boxing ring or something as tragic as that.

You should find cover. Preferably something flammable or explosive.

 

[M16Red]

They think they know, but the reality is it's very nuanced hence why actual experts on the subject have found it to be a very difficult conversation. The fact that you think the average person has a good understanding of it is a literal demonstration of my point that the majority are idiots and should not be listened to when it comes to subjects like human rights. I barely trust the general public to give me directions ffs.

I'm special too

 

[M16Red]

You should find cover.

Feck them... sick of them.

 

[KirkDuyt]

Feck them... sick of them.

If you mean Trump and brexiteers, I agree!

 

[The Corinthian]

They think they know, but the reality is it's very nuanced hence why actual experts on the subject have found it to be a very difficult conversation. The fact that you think the average person has a good understanding of it is a literal demonstration of my point that the majority are idiots and should not be listened to when it comes to subjects like human rights. I barely trust the general public to give me directions ffs.

You don’t need to be an expert to know that biological males have inherent advantages when it comes to physicality when compared to biological females. The fact that you think you need experts to make that distinction summarises why this discussion is going to go round in circles because people want to overly complicate matters and obfuscate the issue.

 

[africanspur]

What's wrong with Brexit or Trump? People are allowed the choice.

I think, it'll be like this until a trans man kills a woman in a boxing ring or something as tragic as that.

 

[The Boy]

What's wrong with Brexit or Trump? People are allowed the choice.

Trump was probably a bad example in this context as he was a known quantity before he was voted in. But Brexit is a clear example of a population (and even the politicians) failing to have even a basic grasp of the consequences and complexities involved in the issue and voting based on near total ignorance and misinformation.

Complex and nuanced issues should never be decided upon by a voting population. If it was the case women would never have got the vote, civil rights for people of colour would never have been enacted etc it's why populist politics are so dangerous.

 

[KirkDuyt]

Trump was probably a bad example in this context as he was a known quantity before he was voted in. But Brexit is a clear example of a population (and even the politicians) failing to have even a basic grasp of the consequences and complexities involved in the issue and voting based on near total ignorance and misinformation.

Complex and nuanced issues should never be decided upon by a voting population. If it was the case women would never have got the vote, civil rights for people of colour would never have been enacted etc it's why populist politics are so dangerous.

I didnt think Trump would be this harmful to the political and societal climate when he was elected. I expected an incompetent buffoon who would use his presidency to boost the status of his resorts. And while hes definitely an incompetent buffoon, he did way more damage than I had anticipated. Not only to the US, but even global political discourse.

Granted. I knew very little of "TRUMP" before his presidency aside from seeing the odd clip of his dumb reality show.

 

[Oly Francis]

You don’t need to be an expert to know that biological males have inherent advantages when it comes to physicality when compared to biological females. The fact that you think you need experts to make that distinction summarises why this discussion is going to go round in circles because people want to overly complicate matters and obfuscate the issue.

You do need to be an expert to figure out what gives this advantage and if certain thresholds (in testosterone for exemple) can be put in place to make sure the playing field is leveled.

You not understanding it's a complicated issue summarises why this discussion is going round in circles.

 

[Alex99]

You do need to be an expert to figure out what gives this advantage and if certain thresholds (in testosterone for exemple) can be put in place to make sure the playing field is leveled.

You not understanding it's a complicated issue summarises why this discussion is going round in circles.

I'm no expert but I know males have different muscular, skeletal and hormonal development to females, and research seems to be showing that simply limiting testosterone levels isn't enough to negate that development and make it fair for males to compete with females.

You're right in that it's up to qualified people to see if there's a way to negate the obvious advantages, but I don't think women's sports should become a trial for these methods.

 

[The Corinthian]

You do need to be an expert to figure out what gives this advantage and if certain thresholds (in testosterone for exemple) can be put in place to make sure the playing field is leveled.

You not understanding it's a complicated issue summarises why this discussion is going round in circles.

I'm no expert but I know males have different muscular, skeletal and hormonal development to females, and research seems to be showing that simply limiting testosterone levels isn't enough to negate that development and make it fair for males to compete with females.

You're right in that it's up to qualified people to see if there's a way to negate the obvious advantages, but I don't think women's sports should become a trial for these methods.

Just to add to your post - there's also cardiovascular implications which means males are able to perform aerobic (and anaerobic) exercise for longer and deeper periods than biological females. @Oly Francis this is basic biology.

The complication arises from trying to understand what the right solution is. Limiting testosterone is an inadequate solution, and to be honest, there isn't going to be a one-size fits all solution either. The most fair, and one that keeps integrity and equity in sport is to have an open or 3rd category for trans athletes. The wrong solution, in every case, is to just tell female athletes to deal with it, or think that testosterone limits is enough.

 

[Oly Francis]

Just to add to your post - there's also cardiovascular implications which means males are able to perform aerobic (and anaerobic) exercise for longer and deeper periods than biological females. @Oly Francis this is basic biology.

The complication arises from trying to understand what the right solution is. Limiting testosterone is an inadequate solution, and to be honest, there isn't going to be a one-size fits all solution either. The most fair, and one that keeps integrity and equity in sport is to have an open or 3rd category for trans athletes. The wrong solution, in every case, is to just tell female athletes to deal with it, or think that testosterone limits is enough.

Maybe, but that's for science to decide, not by some folks on a forum who claim it's "basic biology".

On top of that, there's debates among scientist about the fact that women could have a superior aerobic fitness so it shows that it's even less "basic biology" and the evidence that you're not qualified at all to claim the issue is simple.