I think “press resistant” is going straight to the top of my list of pretentious bullshit football buzz words we never needed and could have done without. Right up there with trequartista and double pivot.
8
Season Average Rating
- Appearances
- 48
- Goals
- 15
- Assists
- 13
- Yellow cards
- 12
What? Both Grealish and Kovacic are extremely press resistant, Kovacic in particular and it's one of the reasons he was meant to be heir to Modric. It has nothing to do with them playing for City.
Watch him play for Portugal, and you'll see he's not the problem.
It won't be long before there is an xG version statistics of press resistance.
Yeah, every quality that Bruno doesn't have is bullshit, pretentious or overrated
How does "rest-defence" float your boat?
Oh Jesus. Really?!?
Tend to agree with this opinion. Definitely sure about selling and getting rid of Bruno, not as sure about Rashford.
Rashford is still a dangerous player that can be tricky to handle even for great opposition. He's a bit of a spoiled prima donna, not as good as he thinks he is. Rashford believes he's as good as Mbappe, the frontman, main star of the band. Maybe he just needs competition and to be better managed(benched) sometimes, humbled. I hope Garnacho can provide a legitimate threat(competition) to Rashford for starting LW position, but he's still too raw and young, we shall see.
Yet another big game where he has no impact. Not an elite player for sure.
Getting fouls is part of being press resistant. Saying Grealish didn’t have this quality at Villa is bizarre. Grealish could hold off players in tight spaces and not lose the ball. He’s not a player who needed space or grass in front of him to dribble, that is the difference between him and Rashford.
The Kovacic part just tells me you haven’t watched him much. Ever since he was young his ability to dribble with the ball in midfield was his biggest quality
Football didn’t start last season. Nobody should be drawing conclusion on whether a player is press-resistant when he is 29 ffs. Kovacic has been known for this since Inter, even before.
As for Grealish, if the only way to stop him is by fouling him, then I’d say he’s pretty press resistant.
See the point you are trying to make and actually, I agree that it isn't an absurd thought that Bruno would be uncoachable and there wouldn't be any way to integrate him into City (our perception of City). But I am pretty sure Pep would never do it because what he is doing right now, is putting great dribblers all over the pitch to increase their capabilities against pressing teams (which is close to bread and butter these days). Bruno is not a good dribbler at all, doesn't have good close control so I am pretty sure todays Pep wouldn't want him in his team.
I also disagree on Kovacic. Go back and look at some of the raving reviews from Real. He was a fantastic dribbler. I think, he only became more of a grafter when at Inter but his dribbling still was hailed, it continues until today even if it might no be as flashy anymore.
Bruno was still one of our better players yesterday - not saying much but still
He actually seems to give a shit still as evidenced by him chasing back and defending when McTominay couldn't be fecked after giving the ball away and the defence put out a red carpet
We are in absolutely 0 position to be looking to get alternatives for him. He is far and away the least of our worries
He actually seems to give a shit still as evidenced by him chasing back and defending when McTominay couldn't be fecked after giving the ball away and the defence put out a red carpet
We are in absolutely 0 position to be looking to get alternatives for him. He is far and away the least of our worries
Especially if it's against the likes of Luxembourg.
Which of our players have consistently performed well in the big games over the last 10 years?
I'd say Rashford and that's it. Even he's fading somewhat in that respect.
Can anyone name the others?
Because here's the thing guys, we haven’t consistently turned up as a team in the big games for years now.
So it's extremely difficult, especially as a creative player, to bring out your best stuff when your team is getting outplayed and dominated.
As was the case last night. First 20 mins, when the game was even, I thought Bruno did pretty well, as well as anybody else anyway. Considered passing, nothing silly, good retention, plenty of work.
But once Bayern got ahead and took control you simply can't expect just one or two to somehow keep it going at a top level because football is afterall a TEAM SPORT remember.
You're under the cosh, getting deeper, less passing options, everybody's tiring.
But some expect Bruno to still in that situation be banging out a 90% possession stat.
It won't happen I'm afraid.
I'd say Rashford and that's it. Even he's fading somewhat in that respect.
Can anyone name the others?
Because here's the thing guys, we haven’t consistently turned up as a team in the big games for years now.
So it's extremely difficult, especially as a creative player, to bring out your best stuff when your team is getting outplayed and dominated.
As was the case last night. First 20 mins, when the game was even, I thought Bruno did pretty well, as well as anybody else anyway. Considered passing, nothing silly, good retention, plenty of work.
But once Bayern got ahead and took control you simply can't expect just one or two to somehow keep it going at a top level because football is afterall a TEAM SPORT remember.
You're under the cosh, getting deeper, less passing options, everybody's tiring.
But some expect Bruno to still in that situation be banging out a 90% possession stat.
It won't happen I'm afraid.
Not buying this Kool-aid. If anything we've actually been relatively decent in big games during these barren years. Random big game raising might even be our leading factor in keeping failing managers. This team knows how to perform when the pressure is off and there are low expectations. Don't stretch Bruno's big game issues to the rest of the team. His struggles are a different type of bottling, especially as his style is directly contributing to our lack of control. Plus I don't think many of the others are called world class or good enough to be here.
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Name the players who've been consistently good over the last decade in big games outside of Rashford.
That covers a lot of players so should be easy. Should be lotsof them if this is pretty much a Bruno thing.
Side note: we were resoundingly awful last year in the big games. Awful as a team.
Everyone one of the players mentioned are press resistent. Kovacic's best attribute is his ability to get out of tight spaces with the ball and dribble up the pitch. Same with grealish. Bruno is the literal opposite. He couldn't play for pep.
I just hope this consistency you're referring to means "more consistent in big games than Bruno" because that would be the only relevant object of comparison if you're going to blame Bruno's poor individual performances on others. They don't even need Ronaldo level consistency to be more reliable than Bruno. The likes of Rashford, casemiro, even departed or soon to be departed players like fred, de gea and Martial's lazy ass showed up more occasionally. Stop blaming his big game struggles on players who don't regress anywhere close to the way Bruno regresses, it's so silly.
It's even supposed to work the other way round. A supposed world class player is meant to be the one person who doesn't crumble in tight situations. The team might be jointly accountable for a bad result but players are responsible for their poor individual performances
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So, Casemriro, Fred, DDG and Martial are the best examples of big game players you can think of? Martial, who's been shite against everyone for years. Casemiro, who I can't remember excelling against any big team last season. De Gea, who famously had a 0% save percentage when the scousers dicked us and Fred, who's left the club and got some absolutely terrible chasings in big games. That's the best you can come up with? Kind of proves his point, no.
Oh and Bruno was excellent in our best league result last season. Against Manchester City.
No it proves the point that it doesn't take much to be a better big game player than Bruno. This isn't a very high bar at all. A couple anomalous big game spikes would be all it takes for the other players to surpass his consistency. His skillset translates terribly in those games. Also because of how actively detrimental his style can be in these games.
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Seriously mate, it feels like you intentionally trying to distract from the debate that is going on in here. Tell us: how does it make Bruno better or gets rid of his deficiencies when you compare him to his team mates? How often do you want to hear that he has been one of the better, maybe best, performers of the team - when all that matters not really a thing seeing that our rivals all play better and for the most part more productive than we do?
We get it, you think some of the criticism is over the top, you are probably right to a certain degree, but what you are doing isn't really helping to cool the mood.
The big game player/flat track bully thing has always been the dumbest stick to beat any player with. Funnily enough, I remember it being used a lot against Ronaldo in his early days. The fact is, most players don't excel in big games. Something that is even more true when they're playing for a not very good team like us. Because in most of those games we're getting a hiding. Or, at best, a very tight game where creative/attacking players will struggle to shine. Besides, Bruno tends to always play well in any big game where the rest of the team turn up and give him a platform to express himself. As per my previous post, City last season an obvious example.
Grealish and Kovacic are both obviously press resistant players.
I think, we can shorten it here: you stance is that we should just make sure that Bruno has better defensive players behind to provide more security and better forwards to score his chances and then we are fine. Does this sound correct?
That wasn't a complete myth either. For the briefest window Ronaldo did have some issues adapting his trickery to elite defenses. Unlike many others he figured it out very quickly and became one of the most clutch players the game has seen
Big games are also not some made up stick to beat players. It's like any angle used to describe his weaknesses suddenly becomes a myth that never existed. Big game performances are a universal truth in not just football but every sport on the planet. Some players don't translate well, others live for those siituations.
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No just tell me whose put in consistently good performances in the big games over the last decade. It's not a complicated question and the names should be obvious and plentiful if its just Bruno who struggles.
The names you have come up with, come on mate. De Gea was awful in the big games. Casemiro as our DM last season featured in absolute batterings. Probably our worst season in modern times in the bigger games. Don't even know where to begin with Martial.
I'm not having a pop at those guys(except De Gea) because as a team, we're nearly always struggling against the bigger names.
In those games it has to be a collective effort that creates a platform for individuals to have their big moments. I know this sounds like an excuse but its true and extends beyond Bruno.
There is no point to do this with Pogue, to be honest. It seems like he's been so invested in defending Bruno over the years that he would rather stick to it no matter what, instead of accepting that he is wrong and having to admit to "all the tedious twats" on here that he was, despite watching his mediocre performances game after game.
You know when you see him saying he is the most productive creative attacking player in the league that he is just impossible to have an actual discussion with regarding Bruno, and how he claims Bruno should have assists for other players' passes.
You know when you see him saying he is the most productive creative attacking player in the league that he is just impossible to have an actual discussion with regarding Bruno, and how he claims Bruno should have assists for other players' passes.
I wanted Rogue Bruno at his finest yesterday but think Bayern were prepared for it and never really allowed him the opportunity..
I choose not to fault his performance in general because we out performed by a tactically better team. We would have been very lucky to get anything out of that game.
I choose not to fault his performance in general because we out performed by a tactically better team. We would have been very lucky to get anything out of that game.
Well first thing, its a chat about football. So if what I'm saying is heating you up, relax, it's just an opinion. It doesn't really matter.
I don't think some of you want a debate, you want a forum to purely criticise a player. I've talked about Bruno's positives and negatives. Looks like nothing but constant moaning and criticising to me from a few.
I'm comparing him to others in this instance because football is a team sport. If you want any of the players to turn up in big games their has to be a proper team performance. The other players are all very relevant to each other on this point.
I've made the same point in other player threads. When CB's are getting slaughtered in big games, I'll point out the complete lack of protection they get etc.
You want your striker to perform? He can't do that if the 10 behind him are useless etc.
It's not an excuse, its the nature of any team sport.
It's not a complicated question, it's a blatant reach. If the point is that bruno's teammates are why he sucks I only need to show that those same players have been more reliable in big games than Bruno, not world class standards. Maguire's mistakes are not the reason Bruno can't trap a ball under pressure. Stop it.
Comically Bruno against lesser sides isn't even that much fantastic either. Same lack of discipline that invites pressure on everyone, just with an assist or two.
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I think most on here are just talking about their opinions. Also positive ones and negative ones. As I said, it comes across like an attempt to distract, if it wasn't meant as that, don't bother, just saying how it looks to me. And you are obviously right, no player lives in a vacuum but on the same manner, Bruno is influencing his team mates just as well. And, again to me it seems like, you are picturing him as if he only effects them positively with his chance creation and his business. I am not at all heated about you but there are a few others who aren't as calm as you and when people are called bad fans when they question the supposedly best player for us than this will always lead to heated debates - which wouldn't even be an issue if the so called whining, whinging and negativity sticker would used shortly after. Of course, some of that behaviour is also apparent on the other side of the debate and thats why I am trying to find out why you seem to deflect on others performance levels when the topic in here is Bruno. The whole world is celebrating him, Statman Dave makes sure of it, same as United social media.
Explained by Tifo(Jon Mackenzie).
The defence for him just gets more hilarious as time goes by. Great players prove their greatness by not only being consistent against the smaller teams but by making the difference against bigger teams.
Ronaldo absolutely was a player who didn’t play well him big games but then he turned that around by performing in them. The same was said of Robben, at one point he was seen as a big game choker but he too turned this around. No top player except Messi excels in the big games all the time but very few supposed top plays fail to show up against top teams as often as Bruno.
At this point, it’s like arguing against Lukaku failing to show up in big games.
Rashford, Martial and even Pogba have all had their big game performances for us. I mean we’re at the point where posters are predicting with certainty that he will have a poor game. That’s how bad he is at them.
Why? I don’t get why people take issue with using footballing terminology to summarily convey a meaning. It’s also been used for well over a decade.
Yep +1
I like Bruno alot but after watching our game, i watched the Arsenal game and seeing Odegaard made me realise why we can never ever control football games with Bruno as our main man.
Because the topic isn't just Bruno. If the opinion was just that Bruno isn't good enough or you'd prefer Musiala I'd say fair enough. I would as well.
But the conversations I'm seeing and having is that Bruno's influence is much wider than that. That he's the principal cause of our problems, that he's holding other players back.
Maybe you haven't seen this conversations but when it goes there of course I'm going to discuss these other players.
If somebody wants to zone in on Bruno for the entire team not looking after the ball of course I'm going to say hey what about these other guys as well who played even worse.
The debate here isn't simply that Bruno isn't very good. That's a misinterpretation.
I’m so sorry I had you down as being all about the big games. Such a genuine guy, my bad. Obviously you’ve always felt that big games are not the measure of a player, just like giving the ball away isnt, just like sloppy passes aren’t, just like getting tackled leading to a goal isn’t, just like stats aren’t, and that playing the most minutes is a net negative not positive or taking pens to increase stats.
I was clearly wrong about you. I agree by the way. Generally it’s harder to perform in big games. Especially when the team is struggling. Defenders aside there’s probably only Rashford and Pogba played well when we’ve struggled against City in the period since SAF on a regular basis for example. When the team has played well we’ve often won though but when we’ve lost only those two have played well.
https://www.redcafe.net/threads/paul-pogba-2018-19-performances.440059/post-23990792
Not sure what you mean about each and every game but it would be nice to see him carry the team maybe just once?
Honestly - apart from walkovers against cannon fodder - when have you ever looked back on a game and thought, thank feck for Pogba, we wouldn't have won that without him? Thinking of crunch matches like last night. Big games against top opposition.
I can only think of two occasions and in both those games his flaws were just as apparent as his strengths. When we beat Arsenal 3-1 at their place in the league. It was a great run from him to set up the Lingard goal that settled the game for us. But he was also (at least partly) responsible for Arsenal having insane amounts of possession and relentlessly peppering our goal (De Gea's famous double save from Lacazette/Sanchez) and ended up getting a red card. The other was the comeback win against City. Although, again, this was a game where our dysfunctional midfield handed the opposition almost complete control for the vast majority of the game. Pogba's first half performance in that match was a disgrace.
Are there any other MOTM performances against top teams I've forgotten? Genuinely curious. He's supposedly best/most expensive player and he's played 87 games for us. Surely I'm forgetting some obvious ones here?
Because if we go to the opposite extreme - big matches against top teams where he was either ineffectual or actively bad - well then it's an awful lot easier to start coming up with examples...
https://www.redcafe.net/threads/paul-pogba-2018-19-performances.440059/post-23991027
The one really big "fact" I want to see in defence is someone reminding me that I've misremembered his frankly pitiful return of two objectively MOTM displays in big games since he signed for the club. I'm honestly curious here!
The funny thing is, I am a Pogba fan. I watched his first game with us for the U18s live and was immediately blown away by what I saw. I was gutted when he left and thrilled when we signed him back up again. Then his debut against Southampton went as well as I dared hope. Since then, though, it's been varying degrees of disappointment. Sometimes I think he might finally be the player I'd hoped he'd become, then it all goes pear shaped again. It's just not good enough for a player who is supposedly up there with the very best of his generation.
I'm old enough to have watched many Manchester United players who fulfil that description and, believer me, they were miles more influential and consistent than Pogba. Which probably explains that the people most likely to be critical of his United career are fan of a similar age. If you've never enjoyed watching Keane or Robson dominate midfield, week after week, then maybe expectations are low enough to find what Pogba produces acceptable. Who knows? I bumped this thread today to point out players at other clubs who - in the here and now - are producing the big match performances we should be getting from Pogba on a much more regular basis but I guess that reference isn't working. Oh well.
https://www.redcafe.net/threads/should-we-consider-selling-pogba.456912/post-26331290
Haven’t seen them overall but saw some stats for results with/without him against “big teams” (i.e. City, Liverpool, Arsenal, Chelsea and Spurs) and there was a massive negative difference in results for all the games he started
https://www.redcafe.net/threads/paul-pogba-2020-21-performances.457012/post-26262489
He’s basing it on the traditional five biggest clubs we play against in the league. Arsenal, Chelsea, Spurs, City, Liverpool. Which works for me. They’re always the gold standard for “big games” in any given campaign.
https://www.redcafe.net/threads/paul-pogba-2018-19-performances.440059/post-23990810
Question aimed at everyone, not just the person I quoted.
Big games, against top opposition, where Pogba stood up to be counted. Proper game changing performances. The sort of thing you'd expect from the best player at a top football club.
Anyone?
Anyone?
Bueller?
https://www.redcafe.net/threads/paul-pogba-2018-19-performances.440059/post-23335549
That doesn't help explain some of the absolutely woeful performances he's put in during big games. Liverpool last season being a good example
But yeah (when you like/are in love with a player fanboy) then it obviously is the dumbest stick
Dont bother. Some folks just don't want anything new to their lifes. Which is fine I guess, some are just in this for entertainment. Their resentful tone should just be ignored, they will go away soon enough.