Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less

[mu4c_20le]

Nah.

Exactly. No one is going to waste resources defending Hamas.

 

[owlo]

@africanspur i believe you probably know what I’m going to say about the video, but I largely agree with the thrust of it, given he posted it on 8th. I think that if you ran the same interview now, he’d realise there was no possibility of negotiations for the foreseeable future. He’s talking about Palestinians and Israelis negotiating. They won’t even admit they are negotiating via 3rd parties for the release of women and children. So it might be too far gone.

I believe that this Israeli policy goes back to Begin in 1977 and it’s generally working. but agree with his overall point that at some point in the future there has to be a solution. The Palestinians have also shot themselves in the foot many times on this, so nothing will be easy.

 

[africanspur]

The senate majority leader is Jewish. As the most senior Jew Id hope he is in private urging restraint and letting the Israelis know that the United states expects it.

That said, it seems a bit complicated currently as the United States policy determined by the president, seems to be not to request restraint, as the terrorism is too egregious. That’s on the president. Were i president, I would request it.

I don’t think anybody should be flying Israeli flags inside the capitol either.

Yes but I'm sure you'd agree that they have little to no actual influence over what Israel does (and this is an actual nation state), certainly not outside of the US government official position. I assume (and hope) that Tlaib has no contact with Hamas (not an actual nation state and a group who it seems where there may not even be concordance between the military and political wings) in any way, shape or form, outside of any official US government capacity (not sure if she has this or not).

Fair enough on the Israeli flag as well.

 

[Laurencio]

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Iran sure looks to be involved...

 

[MoskvaRed]

I think you'd suprised.

In what sense (genuine question -I’m no China foreign policy expert)?

 

[Halftrack]

I'm not saying that Israel hasn't made mistakes along the way, but they are errors of action, not conscience, and caused by its desire to protect itself.

This is complete bullshit. You don't shoot unarmed civilians to protect yourself. You don't bomb hospitals and residential buildings to protect yourself. You don't condone the theft of land and eviction of families to protect yourself. You don't cut off power and fresh water for 2 million people to protect yourself.

 

[calodo2003]

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[owlo]

Yes but I'm sure you'd agree that they have little to no actual influence over what Israel does (and this is an actual nation state), certainly not outside of the US government official position. I assume (and hope) that Tlaib has no contact with Hamas (not an actual nation state and a group who it seems where there may not even be concordance between the military and political wings) in any way, shape or form, outside of any official US government capacity (not sure if she has this or not).

Fair enough on the Israeli flag as well.

I believe sanders and AOC struck an acceptable balanced tone compared to tlamb. AOC especially impressed in her ability to be balanced considering her fairly anti Israel views.

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[africanspur]

@africanspur i believe you probably know what I’m going to say about the video, but I largely agree with the thrust of it, given he posted it on 8th. I think that if you ran the same interview now, he’d realise there was no possibility of negotiations for the foreseeable future. He’s talking about Palestinians and Israelis negotiating. They won’t even admit they are negotiating via 3rd parties for the release of women and children. So it might be too far gone.

I believe that this Israeli policy goes back to Begin in 1977 and it’s generally working. but agree with his overall point that at some point in the future there has to be a solution. The Palestinians have also shot themselves in the foot many times on this, so nothing will be easy.

I agree but I think for me the most interesting part, and the bit that I thought was most relevant to the conversation, was the bit about how the diplomatic cover from the USA in particular had given the Israelis the impression that a) they could do as they wished and b) that things could continue to rumble along and the Palestinians needed no solution (or dignity) because the Israelis had done such a good job of compartmentalising them away from view.

Right now, there will of course be no negotiations. Whether you are apprehensive about this fact, sad about it, pretending to be sad about it or looking at it with barely concealed vigor, we all know what's coming.

 

[NicolaSacco]

Sounds like you are equating the two. I suppose your post is good evidence for what I said, that no matter what, some people will never change their perspectives about this.

I’m suspicious that you are doing anything you can to NOT equate slaughtered Palestinian children with slaughtered Israeli children, because deep down you know which country is doing the vast majority of the slaughtering.

 

[VorZakone]

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Stunningly evil.

 

[adexkola]

I disagree that she’s providing an objective point of view. I disagree that anybody in the Israeli or US government would seriously consider her objective. So she’s not calling on Israel to do anything. She’s fermenting hate through her following and support by pushing a narrative that justifies the terrorism happening as she posts.

She is a member of the legislature of the United States government. Her job is to represent her district of the United States, and the interests of the United States. The president decides foreign policy, not a house rep in a fringe conference.

Worth noting there’s been bipartisan criticism of her comments.

Eh?

First off, no one says she decides foreign policy. She's a member of the government and she's entitled to espouse her views on the issue. And any votes on funding or material support for Israel go through the House, so more than being a lackey, she does have a say in US foreign policy, as does every House representative.

Second, yes she is calling on Israel to do something. She's calling for the occupation of Gaza/West Bank, and the apartheid (called so by neutral organizations) to stop.

Third, she's calling for peace for everyone in the region. I think that does include Israelis.

And of course there's bipartisan criticism of her mild comments. This is a country that has criminalized peaceful boycott of Israel, and refuses to go along with numerous condemnations of Israel at the UN. Do you really think they're the best sources of objectivity?

This thread is only allowing people to amplify the hatred. Back and forth, insult upon insult. No good can come of this thread. Perhaps time to close it.

Or you can just mute the thread if the conversation is getting too hot for you. We're having text conversations on the Internet, what's the bad you're expecting of this thread? Nothing the ban hammer won't solve.

 

[Laurencio]

Seems to be confirmed. Other horror stories not as of yet...

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I have no words.

 

[zaafi]

This is complete bullshit. You don't shoot unarmed civilians to protect yourself. You don't bomb hospitals and residential buildings to protect yourself. You don't condone the theft of land and eviction of families to protect yourself. You don't cut off power and fresh water for 2 million people to protect yourself.

I don't necessarily agree with all of the things they do, but what do you suggest they do? They can't allow Hamas to grow, open trade or flee flow of any resource into Gaza. Hamas have no interest in just being liberated from Israel, so what is the solution here?

 

[adexkola]

Have you concluded from this week's events that Israel should have more open borders, to enable economic progress and less suffering in Gaza?

Um, yeah, there's no excuse for state sanctioned apartheid and terrorism no matter the situation on ground, it's literally international law

 

[Bastian]

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This is getting out of hand. First everyone has to have exactly the same opinion on all the covid measures, even in hindsight. Then the Ukraine war that has no nuance. Now the plight of the Palestinians that's been ongoing for more than 50 years has to be viewed from the singular side even by football clubs in England.

 

[Ragnar123]

That's it then. Biden will also speak shortly.

Defense Minister Yoav Gallant says Israel is moving to a “full offense” against the Gaza Strip, as sporadic clashes with Hamas terrorists in southern Israel continue for a fourth day.


“I have released all the restraints, we have [regained] control of the area, and we are moving to a full offense,” Gallant says to troops on the Gaza border.


“You will have the ability to change the reality here. You have seen the prices [being paid], and you will get to see the change. Hamas wanted a change in Gaza, it will change 180 degrees from what it thought,” Gallant says.


“They will regret this moment, Gaza will never return to what it was,” he continues.


“Whoever comes to decapitate, murder women, Holocaust survivors — we will eliminate him with all our might, and without compromise,” Gallant adds.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog-october-10-2023/

 

[owlo]

I agree but I think for me the most interesting part, and the bit that I thought was most relevant to the conversation, was the bit about how the diplomatic cover from the USA in particular had given the Israelis the impression that a) they could do as they wished and b) that things could continue to rumble along and the Palestinians needed no solution (or dignity) because the Israelis had done such a good job of compartmentalising them away from view.

Right now, there will of course be no negotiations. Whether you are apprehensive about this fact, sad about it, pretending to be sad about it or looking at it with barely concealed vigor, we all know what's coming.

Im not sure I agree with that in modern terms. Israel are a major nuclear power who are so technologically and defence industry entangled with the western world in the 21st century that it’s never been a concern. After this terrorist attack, even the progressive left is peeling away from the Palestinian cause. When the 2 state solution was rejected and they failed to even negotiate but just kept saying no, that was probably about the turning point. Israel have been advancing their solution of slow grinding settler colonial ethnic cleansing, and generally, it’s working. Palestinians used to be able to count on Arab friends and now feel abandoned and more hopeless by the way.

I think this ground war is the best possible result for hamas. And the worst for Palestinians And for Israel.

 

[Raoul]

I believe sanders and AOC struck an acceptable balanced tone compared to tlamb. AOC especially impressed in her ability to be balanced considering her fairly anti Israel views.

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Impressive she didn't fall for the whataboutism trap.

 

[Badunk]

The pro-Israel lobby on the Caf are having a bit of a mare, to be honest.

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

I'm not saying that Israel hasn't made mistakes along the way, but they are errors of action, not conscience, and caused by its desire to protect itself.

You earlier posted: no matter what Hamas does, children burned, babies decapitated, sheer hatred, joy and dancing at murder of helpless innocents etc etc. It will not matter to many people here. Nor Hamas's stated reasons as being firstly for religious reasons, as revenge for some theoretical insult to their third holiest site (from which they prostrate themselves in the opposite direction).

Don't you think the same applies to you and Israel? That you might be conveying people that no matter what sick depravities the IDF or Israeli society does, it will always be defended with "we must protect ourselves"?

 

[hasanejaz88]

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No other journalists are reporting this and she again claims it's coming from intelligence officials. Her Twitter timeline also shows a heavy bias pro Israel, I'm going to wait for more credible sources before proclaiming anything.

 

[owlo]

Impressive she didn't fall for the whataboutism trap.

Shes also condemned the pro Palestinian rally in NY https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/oct/10/aoc-palestinian-rally-new-york

I was reading an article which reckons the last few days have been a shock wake-up call for the progressive left, who are having to rethink their Israel/palestine views. It was primarily in relation to sanders, but AOC was mentioned.

She called for a ceasefire and honestly, I don’t disagree. I think a week to mourn and reflect would help everybody. It’s all happening too fast.

 

[Rams]

I think it’s completely tragic what has and is happening. Some of the atrocities committed by Hamas are unforgivable. Pure hatred for an unachievable cause. On the other hand, the repression of the Palestinians and the confiscation of land of Palestinians has to stop. When this horrific mess is hopefully over, I think all sides should focus on improving the behavior between the different people and the basic human rights of all the citizens in Israel, Gaza and the West Bank. It may even be time for a peacekeeping force in Gaza.

 

[Roane]

Need more speakers like Francesca Albanese. Just been on Sky News.

 

[Badunk]

I suspect we're being gaslit with the decapitated babies story.

 

[Raoul]

Shes also condemned the pro Palestinian rally in NY https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/oct/10/aoc-palestinian-rally-new-york

I was reading an article which reckons the last few days have been a shock wake-up call for the progressive left, who are having to rethink their Israel/palestine views. It was primarily in relation to sanders, but AOC was mentioned.

She called for a ceasefire and honestly, I don’t disagree. I think a week to mourn and reflect would help everybody. It’s all happening too fast.

Yes, I think the left will be ostracized for cozying up to a terror group for what they thought was to create more balance in the Israeli-Palestinian relationship.

 

[adexkola]

If the NYTimes/CNN/Guardian pick up the alleged beheadings and back the accounts up...

But I've not seen the allegations confirmed and I have feeds open of every major news outlet. It's so horrendous of an allegation that no outlet will put it out there as confirmed fact without multiple corroborated sources

 

[owlo]

No other journalists are reporting this and she again claims it's coming from intelligence officials. Her Twitter timeline also shows a heavy bias pro Israel, I'm going to wait for more credible sources before proclaiming anything.

Ive opted out of such photographs, but would have expected to see discussion of them and therapy sessions offered in situ. I’ve not seen anything to be honest. Doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist, but would be quite surprising given the amount of stuff that journalists haven’t seen that exists.

 

[VorZakone]

If the NYTimes/CNN/Guardian pick up the alleged beheadings and back the accounts up...

But I've not seen the allegations confirmed and I have feeds open of every major news outlet. It's so horrendous of an allegation that no outlet will put it out there as confirmed fact without multiple corroborated sources

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[Raoul]

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The ISIS comparisons were legit it seems.

 

[adexkola]

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This is getting out of hand. First everyone has to have exactly the same opinion on all the covid measures, even in hindsight. Then the Ukraine war that has no nuance. Now the plight of the Palestinians that's been ongoing for more than 50 years has to be viewed from the singular side even by football clubs in England.

Agreed, why this time?

Clubs are free to come out with a statement if they so please. So are individual players and coaches. Why must the PL say something, now?

 

[Laurencio]

Agreed, why this time?

Clubs are free to come out with a statement if they so please. So are individual players and coaches. Why must the PL say something, now?

I mean, who cares what football clubs think about this?

 

[owlo]

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heads cut referring to the dead overall is nothing like babies beheaded. Be super careful here.

 

[sullydnl]

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[Carolina Red]

They can't allow Hamas to grow

What if I told you that they're 1) who funded Hamas in the beginning and 2) are the main reason why it grows.

 

[adexkola]

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I'm seeing this on CNN

Hamas militants carried out a “massacre” in Kfar Aza in southern Israel during their attacks over the weekend, in which women, children, toddlers and the elderly were "brutally butchered in an ISIS way of action,” the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) told CNN Tuesday.

The IDF said it cannot confirm the number of people killed there and would not go into details how the people were killed.

“We are aware of the heinous acts Hamas is capable of,” it added.
The IDF was responding to a report by the news outlet i24 that some of its troops who arrived at Kfar Aza found terrible atrocities had been committed against the victims.

Earlier today, an Israeli general described to CNN the moment the military found bodies in the Kfar Aza kibbutz: "I’ve never seen anything like this in my career, never in 40 years of service this something I never imagined," he said.

Allusions to something terrible. I think it's something that will be announced by Netanyahu and/or Biden, if confirmed, to kill any dissent

 

[Zen86]

The current Minister of National Defense for Israel, Itamar Ben-Gvir, used to have a portrait of Baruch Goldstein, a terrorist who killed 29 Palestinians, hanging in his living room.

He was the lawyer for Amiram Ben-Uriel, an Israeli settler who firebombed a house and burned Ali Dawabsheh, an 18-month-old Palestinian child, to death. Israeli settlers showed up to the trial and taunted the boy's grandfather, singing "Where's Ali? There's no Ali. Ali is burned. On the fire. Ali is on the grill."

He was present at a wedding in which guests stabbed and burned a photo of the child. He later claimed nobody realized who the baby in the photo was.

On 24 March, a report from the UN team responsible for the protection of children in war zones was released, it found "hundreds" of violations of the rights of children and accused Israeli soldiers of shooting children, using children as human shields, bulldozing a home with a woman and child still inside, and shelling a building they had ordered civilians into a day earlier. One case involved using an 11-year-old boy as a human shield, by forcing him to enter suspected buildings first and also inspect bags. The report also mentioned the boy was used as a shield when Israeli soldiers came under fire. The Guardian has also received testimony from three Palestinian brothers aged 14, 15, and 16, who all claimed to have been used as human shields.

The UK newspaper The Guardian conducted an investigation of its own which, according to the paper, uncovered evidence of war crimes including the use of Palestinian children as human shields and the targeting of medics and hospitals. The paper also found evidence of attacks on clearly distinguishable civilian targets.

EDIT - Hamas are a terrorist organisation, that much we can agree and both sides are doing messed up shit. the leadership on both sides is the main issue

Yes, all of these things are horrible. And I expect there are a lot of other stories like these on either side of the fence down the years. But in my opinion, the “go out and murder, torture and mutilate as many civilians as possible” directive is another line crossed. It’s a depressing new low even for a conflict as bloody and grim as this. It’s premeditated murder. It’s not an isolated incident, it’s not something that happened in the heat of battle, it’s not individuals or groups acting alone, there’s not even the facade that it wasn’t state instructed. It’s large scale, premeditated murder. No strategic aim except to kill and humiliate the helpless, and bait the Israelies into killing more Palestinians.

Perhaps Isreal has done the same in the past. I don’t know. I’m not biased to either side and I don’t have any skin in the game. But the latest atrocities have taken this conflict to a new level of bloodshed and I expect it to get a whole lot worse from here.

 

[NicolaSacco]

Agreed, why this time?

Clubs are free to come out with a statement if they so please. So are individual players and coaches. Why must the PL say something, now?

Rightly or wrongly this is being viewed as a 9/11 style event for Israel, so that’s why. I wish they wouldn’t, but let’s not pretend we can’t see the reasoning.

 

[RedTiger]

In what sense (genuine question -I’m no China foreign policy expert)?

China are no longer isolationist and are on a charm offensive with the Muslim world over the last couple of years. They want a multi polar world and they want to be one of those poles, they know the country that brokers an actual peace deal will have immeasurable goodwill from civilian Muslims for the foreseeable future.

This is all my own opinion though after having talked to chinese Hui Muslims about the direction that China is currently taking.