Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less

[hasanejaz88]

Well, you certainly implied it.

I quite literally bolded the part I was replying to.

 

[hasanejaz88]

https://fortune.com/2023/10/20/web-summit-google-meta-stripe-pull-out-israel-hamas-gaza/

Yea but tech companies don't favor Israel at all right? The guy who made the comment had to end up resigning btw, all for calling out war crimes of Israel. Freedom of speech y'all!

Not sure what you are trying to say here.

For sure the apartheid state wasn't s democracy as the huge majority of black people weren't allowed to vote.

I know much too little about the ANC to comment. Maybe other can do.

Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza, who are controlled/occupied by Israel and therefore there lives are effected by the government, also can't vote in Israeli elections. So the comparison is apt.

 

[gfactor86]

And who will be holding these rallies?

the same people that marched in London today.

let's not pretend that half these people really care about Palestinian lives. They aren't interested in a 2 state solution. All they want is intifada and for the Jews to leave Arab land.

the day after the attacks on Israel and the most brutal day for Jews since the holocaust. They were out marching and rallying for Palestine. This was before Israel had fired a shot back at Gaza

 

[nimic]

Yes you did. You implied that ISIS are better than “the West”. Says it all.

You're the one who brought up ISIS, it's clear he wasn't talking about it at all. In fact, what lead to this is you implying he supports ISIS after he was asking about South Africa and apartheid.

You can disagree with him all you want, but don't argue in bad faith.

 

[gfactor86]

Nobody claims Israel and the IDF aren't guilty of crimes too. However, to put both sides, Israel and Hamas, on the same level is just totally crazy.

The link about the IDF soldier who raped a Palestinian woman is actually a good example about the difference of Israel and Hamas.

One is a crime and Israel punished it. These things happen also in the West.
Hamas instead ordering the mass raping of Jewish women and burning their babies is genocide. Instead of punishing the rapists and murderer, they cheering their actions on the streets.

If you don't see the difference here, then no arguments will ever convince you.

exactly. The Israelis don't celebrate Palestinian deaths. The Palestinians celebrate Israeli deaths. They are not the same

 

[B. Munich]

Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza, who are controlled/occupied by Israel and therefore there lives are effected by the government, also can't vote in Israeli elections.

Didn't Israel withdraw from Gaza strip in 2005? Didn't they even demolished all Israeli settlements in Gaza?
So why should Gazans being allowed to vote in Israel elections?

I'm living and working in Thailand since 1995, I have a permanent residence there. I'm still not allowed to vote in elections.

I think if you should be able to vote in the country you live, work and pay taxes. However, this is s totally different topic.

 

[Revan]

I will not pretend to know the history of every square inch of land. But I do know this: What you are suggesting would be a disaster to Israel and ensure that what happened on October 7 will be repeated. You basically want to us tell Hamas: You win. You massacred many Israelis, and you get to keep the lands those people lived in. So Hamas will learn that he should attack us again for further gains. The idea that we'll then just take those lands back will mean sacrificing more Israeli lives for this little experiment of yours, which is probably very comfortable to conduct from where are you sitting at. It will also send a horrible message to all our enemies, including Iran and Hezbollah.

Hamas are vile animals who want to kill Israelis and destroy Israel. If you are suggesting we negotiate with them, then you are naive. If you think that after what happened on October 7 we can continue our lives normally with Hamas right accross the border - even with a peace deal and a two-state solution - then you are naive.

I do believe that the two-state solution is the only real solution, I do believe Israel needs to show flexibility and settle. But I don't think either side has the leaders for it right now. And I certainly KNOW that we can't and won't ever see Hamas as part of it. Especially after October 7.

Isn’t the two-state solution a meme at this stage? That everytime something happens, people mention it as the solution while at the same time everyone knows that it won’t ever happen.

At this stage, I do not see how it is achievable in the West Bank. While the majority of the population there is Arabs, the majority of land is owned by Jews and there are almost half a million of Jews. To make things even worse, pretty much every Arab city/town/village is encircled by Jewish settlements. And the number of settlements is only increasing. But if even it does not increase, I do not see how any Israeli government can remove half a million of Jews from the West Bank.

I think it is sad and also not very much implementable, but a single Israel state with Arabs getting full human right, albeit limited voting rights, is probably the best solution at this stage. But unfortunately I think this will end in only one way: Ethnic Cleansing.

 

[Revan]

Not sure what you are trying to say here.

For sure the apartheid state wasn't s democracy as the huge majority of black people weren't allowed to vote.

I know much too little about the ANC to comment. Maybe other can do.

West Bank is as apartheid as it can be, probably more apartheid than South Africa ever was. It is crazy how people are still able to live there.

 

[Revan]

Did they kill him in purpose or per accident?
Does this justifies the organized mass raping and mass murder of over thousands of Israeli civilians?
Again, you are comparing apple and oranges here.

She was killed on purpose while wearing the Press jacket and a helmet. It wouldn’t have even made news if she was a Muslim, but she was a Palestinian Christian. Israel denied her killing until they accepted it, but as far as I know, no one has been jailed for it.

 

[B. Munich]

You were arguing that because Hamas was democratically elected, then the people that elected them are to be held accountable. Now you're saying that same logic doesn't apply to Israel?

I said Hamas won the election in 2006 by a wide margin. 74 out of 132 seats in parliament. Whether these elections were free and democratic I don't know.

It applies to Israel as well. However, I differentiate between the Israeli government and a terrorist organisation like Hamas. I am sure Israel doesn't have the extinction of Palestinians written in their constitution.

If you consider Israel and Hamas as equivalent, then any further discussion is meaningless.
It's like comparing the US to Al Qeida.

 

[flameinthesun]

I am on record here as despising the settlers, and they are a big part of the problem that we need to deal with if there is to be a just peace.

But to say they're as bad as Hamas is fecking ridiculous. Only yesterday, this:

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

Regardless of whether someone is Israeli or Palestinian, I don't know how anyone can see an innocent man, woman or child and decide to torture and kill them. How can you live a normal life knowing you caused so much pain and suffering.

 

[Zen86]

You're the one who brought up ISIS, it's clear he wasn't talking about it at all. In fact, what lead to this is you implying he supports ISIS after he was asking about South Africa and apartheid.

You can disagree with him all you want, but don't argue in bad faith.

I made a facetious comment that ISIS and Hamas were the good guys. He agreed, seemingly in sincerity. Not quite sure why you’re deleting comments.

 

[adexkola]

I think it is sad and also not very much implementable, but a single Israel state with Arabs getting full human right, albeit limited voting rights, is probably the best solution at this stage

Separate but "equal"

If Israel cannot commit to a sovereign Palestine state (retaining the right to self defense of course), or a true 1 nation where every citizen has equal rights, then the "best" option is for them to proceed with ethnic cleansing. We know the US will offer muted criticism and nothing else

 

[Carolina Red]

I made a facetious comment that ISIS and Hamas were the good guys. He agreed, seemingly in sincerity. Not quite sure why you’re deleting comments.

I deleted your comments and @nimic is correct in what he said to you.

 

[B. Munich]

She was killed on purpose while wearing the Press jacket and a helmet. It wouldn’t have even made news if she was a Muslim, but she was a Palestinian Christian. Israel denied her killing until they accepted it, but as far as I know, no one has been jailed for it.

This shouldn't happen of course and the cover up is even worse.
I never said Israel is faultless. Neither were the Allies in WW2. Are they therefore on the same level as the Nazis?

I stand by my point that you can't treat Israel and the terrorist organisation Hamas as equal.

 

[Revan]

Separate but "equal"

Equal as in everything else except voting. I see 0 chance of Israel giving voting rights to Arabs in W. bank and Jerusalem (unless the number of them becomes very small). But if they would give full human rights (comparable to someone with a permanent residence) and a passport without voting rights, it will still be a million times better than what the Arabs have now, where Arabs get consistently beaten, humiliated, harassed, get their house destroyed and even killed.

 

[nimic]

I made a facetious comment that ISIS and Hamas were the good guys. He agreed, seemingly in sincerity. Not quite sure why you’re deleting comments.

I'm not a mod so I'm not deleting anything, I'm just calling out what I see as needlessly winding someone up.

Your comment was clearly facetious, but that doesn't make it meaningless. You knew he would take it as implying he was supporting ISIS. He turned it around on you and agreed with a specific part of it.

 

[Roane]

I said Hamas won the election in 2006 by a wide margin. 74 out of 132 seats in parliament. Whether these elections were free and democratic I don't know.

It applies to Israel as well. However, I differentiate between the Israeli government and a terrorist organisation like Hamas. I am sure Israel doesn't have the extinction of Palestinians written in their constitution.

If you consider Israel and Hamas as equivalent, then any further discussion is meaningless.
It's like comparing the US to Al Qeida.

Hamas is only in existence BECAUSE of Israel. Why do people not get this.

Not only is there record of Israeli generals and politicians saying this but there is further evidence if people would care to look.

For example Mahmood Abbas put restrictions on money going to Hamas to try and put the squeeze on them and lessen/weaken their control. And who do you think stopped this "squeeze"? Israel. Israel and the international community got Qatar to pay the wages of Hamas and give them money.

 

[Revan]

This shouldn't happen of course and the cover up is even worse.
I never said Israel is faultless. Neither were the Allies in WW2. Are they therefore on the same level as the Nazis?

I stand by my point that you can't treat Israel and the terrorist organisation Hamas as equal.

The issue is that these things happen all the time. Since the Hamas attack, in West Bank, where Hamas holds no power, there have been around 80 killings of Palestinians by settlers and IDF.

Hamas is a terrorist organization but they are just the symptom of the disease (Israeli apartheid regime).

 

[Carolina Red]

This shouldn't happen of course and the cover up is even worse.

Since 2001, CPJ has documented at least 20 journalist killings by the IDF. The vast majority — 18 — were Palestinian; two were European foreign correspondents; there were no Israelis. No one has ever been charged or held accountable for these deaths.
https://cpj.org/reports/2023/05/dea...2-years-no-one-has-been-held-accountable/amp/

Also, apparently another 20 or so journalists have been killed since the October 7th attack. Most of them in Gaza.

 

[2cents]

At this stage, I do not see how it is achievable in the West Bank. While the majority of the population there is Arabs, the majority of land is owned by Jews and there are almost half a million of Jews. To make things even worse, pretty much every Arab city/town/village is encircled by Jewish settlements. And the number of settlements is only increasing. But if even it does not increase, I do not see how any Israeli government can remove half a million of Jews from the West Bank.

Hypothetically, if it was achievable in 2000 and 2008 (to be clear, I’m not convinced it was), it is probably still possible now. The major settlement blocs that intrude into the West Bank - Ariel, Ma’ale Adumin, Gush Etzion - all existed back when serious negotiations and offers were made in those years. Borders can be drawn around these and the settlements that sit astride the green line, and Israeli land offered in exchange, including around Gaza and the Gaza-West Bank road link. For example in 2008 Olmert reportedly planned to compensate the Palestinians with land equaling 5.8% of the West Bank in exchange for annexing 6.3%, not including the Gaza-West Bank link, although there seem to be very reasonable concerns on the Palestinian side regarding the quality/value of this land.

The settlers aren’t all ideological, many are there for cheap housing and jobs, and many could be induced to move in exchange for compensation provided by the Israeli government. And in an ideal scenario the new Palestinian state could allow some to stay as residents. But some of the most extreme will almost certainly need to be forcibly removed.

It’s all dependent on the existence of mutual good will and trust, which simply does not exist, and which continued settlement building, off-the-leash settler violence, fifteen years of Greater Israel governments, and continued Palestinian factionalism and rejectionism, completely undermines. But in practical terms there are still creative ways to address the settlement issue, and to my mind Jerusalem and possibly the refugees remain probably more intractable problems as thing stand.

 

[B. Munich]

Since 2001, CPJ has documented at least 20 journalist killings by the IDF. The vast majority — 18 — were Palestinian; two were European foreign correspondents; there were no Israelis. No one has ever been charged or held accountable for these deaths.
https://cpj.org/reports/2023/05/dea...2-years-no-one-has-been-held-accountable/amp/

Also, apparently another 20 or so journalists have been killed since the October 7th attack. Most of them in Gaza.

It seems beyond reasonable doubt that IDF is responsible for her death. Whether per accident or intentionally, I don't know.
The responsible persons should have been punished.
The Israeli government aren't doing themselves any favor in prosecuting such crimes committed by the IDF forces.

However, this doesn't in any way justify or excuse what happened on October 7th.

 

[Conor]

the same people that marched in London today.

let's not pretend that half these people really care about Palestinian lives. They aren't interested in a 2 state solution. All they want is intifada and for the Jews to leave Arab land.

the day after the attacks on Israel and the most brutal day for Jews since the holocaust. They were out marching and rallying for Palestine. This was before Israel had fired a shot back at Gaza

It's an amazing talent you have, that you can determine what 'half' of the 100,000+ people want, without talking to any of them.

 

[flameinthesun]

This shouldn't happen of course and the cover up is even worse.
I never said Israel is faultless. Neither were the Allies in WW2. Are they therefore on the same level as the Nazis?

I stand by my point that you can't treat Israel and the terrorist organisation Hamas as equal.

When you see the killings in the west bank, the actions of settlers over the years and the numerous reports of innocent palestinian civilians killed (outside of the bombings), at least for me its becoming harder to understand what is terrorism as it seems if you are a government or western affiliated then your actions are not defined as terrorism. Whereas if I was an innocent Palestinian having my house stolen, seeing friends and family killed by settlers/IDF with the intention of displacing me and causing fear, I'd view them as terrorists. To me, it seems both sides have engaged in the killing of innocents with the intention of causing terror, with the Oct 7th Hamas attack being an obscene and vile demonstration of that. Both sides have engaged in acts of murder outside of international law, so to me there is a valid question on whether both sides have engaged in terrorism.

 

[Carolina Red]

It seems beyond reasonable doubt that IDF is responsible for her death. Whether per accident or intentionally, I don't know.

A sniper shot her in the back of the head, then shot another journalist in the back, and pinned down the whole group of 4 of them so they couldn’t get to help.

The responsible persons should have been punished.
The Israeli government aren't doing themselves any favor in prosecuting such crimes committed by the IDF forces.

Agreed.

However, this doesn't in any way justify or excuse what happened on October 7th.

Nobody said it did.

 

[Superden]

the same people that marched in London today.

let's not pretend that half these people really care about Palestinian lives. They aren't interested in a 2 state solution. All they want is intifada and for the Jews to leave Arab land.

the day after the attacks on Israel and the most brutal day for Jews since the holocaust. They were out marching and rallying for Palestine. This was before Israel had fired a shot back at Gaza

I know lots or family and friends that marched in London, and it's outrageous for you to slander them.

But then again your delight in seeing plaestenians being killed so I shouldn't worry about your moral opinions.

 

[Sweet Square]

The Israelis don't celebrate Palestinian deaths.

Israelis Watch Bombs Drop on Gaza From Front-Row Seats

Last Wednesday night, as he stood on a hilltop outside the Israeli town of Sderot and watched the bombardment of Gaza on the plain below, a Danish newspaper reporter snapped an iPhone photo of about a dozen locals who cheered on their military from plastic chairs while eating popcorn.

Allan Sorensen, a veteran Middle East correspondent for Denmark’s Kristeligt Dagblad, then uploaded the image to Twitter with a sardonic caption that described the macabre scene as “Sderot cinema.”

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

https://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/15/...-bombs-drop-on-gaza-from-front-row-seats.html

.

 

[Superden]

Where are the burning houses, where are the gunshots in the video? All I see date some people walking on the street in the night.

Is that the best you can do to justify terrorism? There's plenty of reports from western press of shootings and burnings in the West Bank over the last few days. And lets not forget the incitement from israeli ministers calling for west bank villages and towns to be annihilated (Bezalel Smotrich) and burnt down (Zvika Fogel).. Would you agree these are Jewish terrorists and they and their supporters need to be bombed out of existence?

 

[Revan]

Hamas is only in existence BECAUSE of Israel. Why do people not get this.

Not only is there record of Israeli generals and politicians saying this but there is further evidence if people would care to look.

For example Mahmood Abbas put restrictions on money going to Hamas to try and put the squeeze on them and lessen/weaken their control. And who do you think stopped this "squeeze"? Israel. Israel and the international community got Qatar to pay the wages of Hamas and give them money.

Netanyahu himself is in record of saying that ‘whoever does not want a 2-state solution should finance Hamas’. He knew that it is easy to blame Palestinians while Hamas has power, while continuing the building of settlements.

Hypothetically, if it was achievable in 2000 and 2008 (to be clear, I’m not convinced it was), it is probably still possible now. The major settlement blocs that intrude into the West Bank - Ariel, Ma’ale Adumin, Gush Etzion - all existed back when serious negotiations and offers were made in those years. Borders can be drawn around these and the settlements that sit astride the green line, and Israeli land offered in exchange, including around Gaza and the Gaza-West Bank road link. For example in 2008 Olmert reportedly planned to compensate the Palestinians with land equaling 5.8% of the West Bank in exchange for annexing 6.3%, not including the Gaza-West Bank link, although there seem to be very reasonable concerns on the Palestinian side regarding the quality/value of this land.

The settlers aren’t all ideological, many are there for cheap housing and jobs, and many could be induced to move in exchange for compensation provided by the Israeli government. And in an ideal scenario the new Palestinian state could allow some to stay as residents. But some of the most extreme will almost certainly need to be forcibly removed.

It’s all dependent on the existence of mutual good will and trust, which simply does not exist, and which continued settlement building, off-the-leash settler violence, fifteen years of Greater Israel governments, and continued Palestinian factionalism and rejectionism, completely undermines. But in practical terms there are still creative ways to address the settlement issue, and to my mind Jerusalem and possibly the refugees remain probably more intractable problems as thing stand.

The map really is a mess and I really do not see any political will to fix that. I agree that nowadays the settlers are mostly there for the quality of life. But they have houses, schools, highways, hospitals and even a university so it would be hard to convince them to leave. And as you mentioned, some are ideological (for example in Hebron).

Jerusalem won’t be a divided city. Full rights for Arabs there while Jerusalem is a united Israeli capital is the best the Arabs will get, unless a World War happens.

 

[Halftrack]

Yes in 2006, just a year after Israel gave back the control over Gaza to the Palestinians, a significant majority (57%) voted for Hamas. A terrorist organisation that has the destruction of the State Israel written in their Convenant.
"The charter states that "our struggle against the Jews is very great and very serious" and calls for the eventual creation of an Islamic state in Palestine, in place of Israel and the Palestinian Territories,[3] and the obliteration or dissolution of Israel."


Hamas doesn't care about democracy or elections. Though, this doesn't say anything about the support of Hamas in Gaza. Their support could be even higher today. Nobody knows as there were no more elections after 2006.

I can argue that without broad support, Hamas wouldn't be able to cling to power for so many years, build the sophisticated tunnel system, construct and fire thousands of missiles on Israel and prepare these atrocious attacks on October 7th.

I wrote yesterday that the Gazans aren't innocent due to voting and ongoing support of the terrorist organisation Hamas. I have been heavily criticized and even called a train wreck and psychopath.

The German population had been held responsible for the atrocities during WW2, AND RIGHTFULLY SO. The term collective guilt was created by the victors because it had been concluded the Nazis would have never been able to do what they did without broad support from the German population.

Now you tell me what's the difference to Gazans and their support of Hamas. Where do the double standards come from?

And again, to make it very clear. I'm not looking for the acquittal of guilt of Germans for the atrocities during WW2. Not at all!
But I'm asking you why do many here consider the Palestinians in Gaza as innocent while Germans were guilty.

One is a captive population who have all grown up in an open air prison they aren't allowed to leave, where they are regularly bombed by their captors, are randomly shot by soldiers and snipers, have their access to food water and healthcare restricted and more.

17 years ago, Hamas won an election based on the promise to weed out corruption. Most Palestinians who voted for them were against their stance on Israel. Since then, Hamas have decided that elections are unnecessary.

As for the supposed "broad support", you've already been called out for misrepresenting the numbers. Besides, I think it's pretty understandable that some Gazans (half of whom are under the age of 18) might sympathise to some extent with the only group who fights their oppressors. And given that the majority of aid that comes into Gaza ends up with Hamas (thanks in large part to Israel, who know exactly what they're doing), they control the resources and have the guns.

And, again, half the population is unddr 18.

The fact that you even think Germany in the 1930s and Gaza in the last few decades is somehow analogous speaks volumes, really.

 

[B. Munich]

Is that the best you can do to justify terrorism?

Where do I justify terrorism?
I was referring to the posted video on Twitter. I see nothing in there that reminds about terrorism. People walking on street in the night.

 

[Mogget]

I said Hamas won the election in 2006 by a wide margin. 74 out of 132 seats in parliament. Whether these elections were free and democratic I don't know.

It applies to Israel as well. However, I differentiate between the Israeli government and a terrorist organisation like Hamas. I am sure Israel doesn't have the extinction of Palestinians written in their constitution.

If you consider Israel and Hamas as equivalent, then any further discussion is meaningless.
It's like comparing the US to Al Qeida.

That's a good analogy. On one hand you have an Islamic terrorist organization which everyone (rightly) denounces and on the other hand you have a government somehow seen as the good guys despite causing far more civilian death.

 

[Superden]

Having seen the quotes from Naftali Bennett this morning (The humanitarian situation in Gaza isn't an Israeli problem anymore than what happens on France isn't the Uks issue) just shows the twisted morally bankrupt mindset of the Israeli establishment. Imagine if arab nations did decide to airdrop aid into Gaza, would the Israelis really allow it.... considering its taken a week to get 20 out of the thousands of trucks needed to get aid into Gaza. In the meantime almost 2milliok are at the risk of imminent starvation and dying from disease

 

[Amir]

As an aside, would it be geographically possible with a two state solution, to have a dmz ala north korea / south korea?

Also i take it with a two state solution, jerusulum would fall under 'international' control rather than either state controlling it?

What's the point of discussing such matters? We might as well discuss an expedition to the planet of Vulcan. It's as realistic right now.

 

[dinostar77]

the same people that marched in London today.

let's not pretend that half these people really care about Palestinian lives. They aren't interested in a 2 state solution. All they want is intifada and for the Jews to leave Arab land.

the day after the attacks on Israel and the most brutal day for Jews since the holocaust. They were out marching and rallying for Palestine. This was before Israel had fired a shot back at Gaza

delusional

 

[Amir]

I think it is sad and also not very much implementable, but a single Israel state with Arabs getting full human right, albeit limited voting rights, is probably the best solution at this stage. But unfortunately I think this will end in only one way: Ethnic Cleansing.

I didn't want to mention it, but ethnic cleansing is probably the only other solution...

 

[B. Munich]

Jerusalem won’t be a divided city. Full rights for Arabs there while Jerusalem is a united Israeli capital is the best the Arabs will get, unless a World War happens.

They will never accept. Weren't events at the wailing wall and the Al-Aqsa mosque the origin of hatred between Jews and Palestinians?

When did the Palestinians actually had their own state? Honestly I don't know, of they ever did

Palestine belonged to the Ottoman empire and when it collapsed after WW1, it became a British mandatory.
In 1947 based on the UN resolution 181 2 states, one Arab and one Jewish state, were founded.
Who didn't accept this solution? It was the Palestinians who insisted on am one state solution. They started a war that they lost.

As long as there extremists on both sides I don't see a lasting solution to this almost a century long conflict.

Feel free to correct me, if I'm wrong.

 

[dinostar77]

What's the point of discussing such matters? We might as well discuss an expedition to the planet of Vulcan. It's as realistic right now.

Because its the only solution long term that will bring peace and needs to be discussed.

There has to be some light or hope at the end of the tunnel.

King of jordan explained it in his speech way better than i ever could.

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

So did Matt MCarthy

 

[JPRouve]

I didn't want to mention it, but ethnic cleansing is probably the only other solution...

Which is extremely grim. Outside of politics and political interests there is no reason to support the idea that palestinians and israelis can't live peacefully and religiously in a single state as a single nation where the entire nation thrives. The only stumbling blocks are extremists and opportunists from both sides, that are all enabled by wealthier and more powerful nations.

The fact that these extremists are immovable is one of the most baffling facts.

 

[Superden]

Where do I justify terrorism?
I was referring to the posted video on Twitter. I see nothing in there that reminds about terrorism. People walking on street in the night.

Look at the rest of the vids on that tweet...you see settlers attacking a property and later a property on fire, with IDF sitting around..