calodo2003
Flaming Full Member
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Yeah, there has definitely been some movement in Israeli society over the years - mostly towards soft right, but partly towards more extreme idiologies.That's true. In the past similar ideologies and discourses were easily criticized and banned, as the banning of Kach illustrates. But the people behind it have always existed and acted on it, they were just not openly supported by people at the top of the political pyramid. An illustration of that is that support for Baruch Goldstein was allegedly used as an argument to ban these movements in the early 90s and yet nearly 30 years later you have ministers openly supporting that legacy. Israel(and Palestine) slowly but surely went backwards and it is that slow burn that is so dangerous for both sides, extremists are totally aware of it while the rest of the population arab and jewish are kind of oblivious.
That seems eerily similar to the conditions 90 years ago in a certain European country.Yeah, there has definitely been some movement in Israeli society over the years - mostly towards soft right, but partly towards more extreme idiologies.
They also strengthened politically, but still had no real power until last year when Netanyahu gave them the big push as he made them part of the coalition and government. Even now thay are trying to inflame the situation, whether it's in the West Bank or within Israel, treating Arab-Israelis as automatic suspect of betrayel,
A very decorated Israeli IDF officer - who recently, at his sixties, ran into the fire on October 7 to fight with terrorists and get citizens out - was lamblasted a few years back when he claimed that the Israeli society was going through a process that resembled that certain European country you've mentioned.That seems eerily similar to the conditions 90 years ago in a certain European country.
Said it weeks ago and banged on about it a few times. No doubt they are also selecting target packages. (Or rather providing raw intelligence for them by sending the ref to the screen var style to abrogate responsibility.) The absolute failure of Israeli ISR is being lost in the more important stuff, but they have to come back to it after the war, as essentially it’s been a primary factor in the excess deaths on both sides.Tweet
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Disregarding that you are justifying violence largely against civilian Jews.…. (Because in these scenarios Jews are largely the targets)I mean anger will boil into people doing more violent shit. Throwing bricks at windows, vandalising, hell even physical attacks against people. There's lot of anger and helplessness there. There's only so long you can expect people to watch a genocide unfolding live and go along with it.
That's courageous of him to speak up as well as to act during 10.7 despite his age. Atleast he did the right thing.A very decorated Israeli IDF officer - who recently, at his sixties, ran into the fire on October 7 to fight with terrorists and get citizens out - was lamblasted a few years back when he claimed that the Israeli society was going through a process that resembled that certain European country you've mentioned.
He was right.
The combination of the religious nutters + the belief that the holocaust should give us special dispensation to do whatever we want to whoever we want has turned parts of Israel and Israeli society to totally deplorable.
Disgusting, vomiting emoji.I mentioned this guy a few days ago on here. His massacre was what lead to Hamas changing tact and starting to attack Israel.
A monument was built for this guy. He was seen as a hero.
I was told, on here, that I was wrong and he wasn't a hero by many etc etc. Bad apples if you will.
This is a hero to the National security minister.
You are wrong. He's NOT a hero to many.I mentioned this guy a few days ago on here. His massacre was what lead to Hamas changing tact and starting to attack Israel.
A monument was built for this guy. He was seen as a hero.
I was told, on here, that I was wrong and he wasn't a hero by many etc etc. Bad apples if you will.
This is a hero to the National security minister.
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Ben Gvir isn't the only one with pictures and posters of this guy on his walls.You are wrong. He's NOT a hero to many.
He is, however, one for Ben Gvir. And the fact that this scum ia part of the government - and has this important role, no less - is part of the disaster that is Netanyahu.
But it doesn"t make him part of the majority or anywhere near.
Don't be thick.Ben Gvir isn't the only one with pictures and posters of this guy on his walls.
Words such as Tzadik and Kaddosh and books referring to him as Baruch HaGever are plentiful in describing the guy.
The Yeshivas eulogising him are also plentiful.
He has plenty of supporters honouring him
I don't think Roane said that either.He didn't say that Goldstein didn't have supporters, just that those don't make up for the majority of the Israelis.
No matter how you twist it, it is a minority. Racist people are not. Goldstein worshippers are.Ben Gvir isn't the only one with pictures and posters of this guy on his walls.
Words such as Tzadik and Kaddosh and books referring to him as Baruch HaGever are plentiful in describing the guy.
The Yeshivas eulogising him are also plentiful.
He has plenty of supporters honouring him
About 10% of the jewish Israeli population consider Goldstein a hero (poll dating from March 2023).I don't think Roane said that either.
43% of the vote did not label him as a terrorist. Its crazy if you are unable to label someone like him as a terrorist.About 10% of the jewish Israeli population consider Goldstein a hero (poll dating from March 2023).
Hmmmm.You could even apply this way of thinking to Israel itself
Yeah, but how many of them actually know about him and what he's done? It was 30 years ago and they don't exactly teach about it in school.43% of the vote did not label him as a terrorist. Its crazy if you are unable to label someone like him as a terrorist.
So 700000 people and people in govt venerate this guy and see him as a hero?About 10% of the jewish Israeli population consider Goldstein a hero (poll dating from March 2023).
Apart from folk dressing up, and their kids as him to commemorate his death. Speeches given in his honour in synagogues even in places like France and USA, you are right it's not taught in schools.Yeah, but how many of them actually know about him and what he's done? It was 30 years ago and they don't exactly teach about it in school.
Whats the USA and France have to do with it?Apart from folk dressing up, and their kids as him to commemorate his death. Speeches given in his honour in synagogues even in places like France and USA, you are right it's not taught in schools.
Jews will obviously be the majority target of this violence and hatred. See statements by the FBI etc. And the evidence all over the world, that it's targeting Jews. And the bold is more of the despicable gaslighting going on. We won't target you if you are an 'anti zionist' and 'good jew' and agree with our opinion. Ergo, other Jews are valid targets, because they support Israel. All the Jews need to do is get on their knees and submit, and we might not be violent or anti semitic towards them.Get out of here with that crap, I'm tired of having to listen to you spin words whilst at the same time be completely silent (and silently happy) about the hundreds dying in Gaza every day. 3700 children. Fewer future Hamas members right?
Where the feck did I justify violence against civillian Jews? I said people are angry and the largely peaceful protests will turn more physical. Where the feck did I mention civillian Jews? I've been on protests and guess what, there's always a large presence of anti zionist Jews. At these marches, the last group anyone would target is them. The target at these previously peaceful protests will be the police. Your reduction of everyone to rabid Jew haters is disgusting.
What I do hate is a large section of pro Israelis like you who will focus on anything but the actual hundreds of people dying in Gaza every day, because silently you're happy to see it. You see it everyday all over twitter. Harvard students, protesters saying a chant, taking down posters, we feel scared, Im pro Palestinian but hamas (bill ackman)... everything but the people dying. Silent condoning it, as though the rest of the world can't see it. Everybody has to condemn Hamas, but not once do any of these people ask for protection for 1m kids, close to 4000 already dead. That's what people are angry about too. Having to listen to shit like that from you everyday.
You want to tell me that in Israel.. Third of the adult population do know who he is? I doubt that there many in Israel who do know who he is, and sure when the questioner was made, they would have clarified that in the question that a section of the people who voted so do not know who he is, but reading the whole article you do not get that understanding.Yeah, but how many of them actually know about him and what he's done? It was 30 years ago and they don't exactly teach about it in school.
I doubt 10% of Israelis even know who Goldstein is. I barely do. It's probably just a terribly constructed poll.Whats the USA and France have to do with it?
Again, you are taking something that a very small part of the population does and treat it as if we're talking about many.
The reality of the matter is that the average Israeli doesn't hear much of Goldstein and I suspect younger people barely know who he is, if at all. Apart from those who grow in very specific parts where what you wrote does indeed happen.
Possibly, but it has succeeded in highlighting the West's hypocrisy. Crocodile tears and aid for the people of Ukraine, bombs for the people of Gaza.I have to wonder whether what's going on in Israel is instigated by Putin with the help of Iran to deflect from the continued invasion and destruction of Ukraine by Russia.
No. It's not a recent issue and it's not a sudden one either, it's an issue that is in the fabrics of a country that has partially been built on theology and ethnicism. Those things have generally been relatively well controlled but it is always there even when it's not at the top of the political pyramid.I have to wonder whether what's going on in Israel is instigated by Putin with the help of Iran to deflect from the continued invasion and destruction of Ukraine by Russia.
Obviously, but for Putin, what an opportunity right? Takes so much focus off what he's doing in Ukraine. Also, given the warm relations with Iran, could this been seen as severe trouble making in that region that essentially benefits both?No. It's not a recent issue and it's not a sudden one either, it's an issue that is in the fabrics of a country that has partially been built on theology and ethnicism. Those things have generally been relatively well controlled but it is always there even when it's not at the top of the political pyramid.
I should clarify, "what's going on currently", not what's been going on in Israel for decades.I have to wonder whether what's going on in Israel is instigated by Putin with the help of Iran to deflect from the continued invasion and destruction of Ukraine by Russia.
He's not talked about. They don't teach about him in schools, they don't do TV documentaries on him. I know who he is because I was already a teenager when he performed the massacre, but I am not sure how much I would have known about it otherwise because he just is not mentioned much in most normal communities here. I am sure most people know the name and not much more.You want to tell me that in Israel.. Third of the adult population do know who he is? I doubt that there many in Israel who do know who he is, and sure when the questioner was made, they would have clarified that in the question that a section of the people who voted so do not know who he is, but reading the whole article you do not get that understanding.
A lot more than 10% know. But many would not.I doubt 10% of Israelis even know who Goldstein is. I barely do. It's probably just a terribly constructed poll.
Indeed. Though Ben Gvir has been able to air his ideology in the media for a while because he made sure he does it in a more reserve way than in the past and due to irresponsible media outlets focusing on him being a "good show'.Where @Amir is likely correct is that while Israel is like most countries leaning toward conservatism more than leftism, the far right and religious extremists have no actual way to survive on their own in the Knesset. Their current existence is due to the fact that Likud isn't strong enough by itself to comfortably beat their normal opposition which led them to create a coalition with these fringe movements but by doing that they also opened the door to these people being able to air their ideologies in mainstream media when you are able to air these things out, you will convince a subset of the population.
Whats the USA and France have to do with it?
Again, you are taking something that a very small part of the population does and treat it as if we're talking about many.
The reality of the matter is that the average Israeli doesn't hear much of Goldstein and I suspect younger people barely know who he is, if at all. Apart from those who grow in very specific parts where what you wrote does indeed happen.