Demaw
Full Member
- Joined
- Dec 1, 2012
- Messages
- 414
Well, it's worked so far with City sending Ed Woodward to us and paying the Glazers an extra billion to buy us too.Maybe they're relaxed because he's a double agent on a sabotage job
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Well, it's worked so far with City sending Ed Woodward to us and paying the Glazers an extra billion to buy us too.Maybe they're relaxed because he's a double agent on a sabotage job
There's not a lot Ashworth could have done about that - and, after Tonali got charges and before Ashworth was linked with us, the Newcastle journos (Luke Edwards in particular) were saying that too.Thirdly is Newcastle aren’t exactly setting the world alight. Yeh great last season but not so great this season. Plus he seems to be getting some blame for Tonali regarding the lack of due diligence. Damaged goods?
Not to be overly negative, but … no, no, and no, no, no.Yeh a few things. One being how long it’s taking for him to start the job. Is he that good that we’re waiting around for him?
Second is the links with Southgate and Potter. Agreed it’s probably bollocks but no smoke without fire? The links aren’t going away.
Thirdly is Newcastle aren’t exactly setting the world alight. Yeh great last season but not so great this season. Plus he seems to be getting some blame for Tonali regarding the lack of due diligence. Damaged goods?
First two paragraphs aren’t really reasons. The man wass employed elsewhere and then papers are just linking us with any ex colleague.Yeh a few things. One being how long it’s taking for him to start the job. Is he that good that we’re waiting around for him?
Second is the links with Southgate and Potter. Agreed it’s probably bollocks but no smoke without fire? The links aren’t going away.
Thirdly is Newcastle aren’t exactly setting the world alight. Yeh great last season but not so great this season. Plus he seems to be getting some blame for Tonali regarding the lack of due diligence. Damaged goods?
The thing with gardening leave is that it does not work in practice. They will be in the fold in some capacity either way.With Berrada not joining until summer and Ashworth looking likely to be even later than that, could this summer be a bit of a struggle?
We regularly hear about how clubs work on their summer plans from around January well who is making those plans for us? I understand that both will likely be I'm contact privately, but neither can get too involved and risk it blowing up in their face with disputes from City/Newcastle.
The annoying thing is it seems to be halting all other appointments as we want to work top down, something I agree we should be doing, but it is still infuriating seeing us have to go slow yet again at a time where there is a wave of optimism.
Are we currently linked with anyone that is close to signing? I remember us linked with Wilcox, but all seems to have gone quiet on that front.
I guess the lad that always made the plans...the manager.With Berrada not joining until summer and Ashworth looking likely to be even later than that, could this summer be a bit of a struggle?
We regularly hear about how clubs work on their summer plans from around January well who is making those plans for us? I understand that both will likely be I'm contact privately, but neither can get too involved and risk it blowing up in their face with disputes from City/Newcastle.
The annoying thing is it seems to be halting all other appointments as we want to work top down, something I agree we should be doing, but it is still infuriating seeing us have to go slow yet again at a time where there is a wave of optimism.
Are we currently linked with anyone that is close to signing? I remember us linked with Wilcox, but all seems to have gone quiet on that front.
I'm not so sure on this, there is a reason all clubs have it in the contract, if it wasn't worth the paper it's written on then why bother?The thing with gardening leave is that it does not work in practice. They will be in the fold in some capacity either way.
Obviously better to go on without the gardening leave, but here we are.
So with that said, I believe we will have a very good summer.
Yeah that's not going to happen, Ineos are going to want to ride the wave of support they have gathered. Having a summer as you describe would quickly have fans up in arms, as well as the fact the staff at the club would be in uproar. A season where we look like we'll be lucky to get 5th, followed by no investment just isn't feasible.I guess the lad that always made the plans...the manager.
Given Ten Hag's track record as head of recruitment I'm actually scared of the next transfer window.
He's probably going to sell more promising young players like Amad and Gore, only to buy Sterling and Joselu....
I hope Sir Jim keeps the war chest locked until Berrada and a DoF are in place and established, meaning January 2025.
Just get rid of the dead wood and loan a backup striker for one year.
Give the likes of Kambwala, Gore etc. a chance and then let Berrada and the DoF do their jobs and revamp the squad.
Please no more Ten Hag splashing the cash nightmare!
If Ashworth is really the man they want for the job than I'm sure Dan and Berrada will be able to provide some input in a covert way. Prepaid phones that neither Newcastle nor City can track or meetings with third parties that will act as messengers that are not officially affiliated with United.I'm not so sure on this, there is a reason all clubs have it in the contract, if it wasn't worth the paper it's written on then why bother?
Yeah that's not going to happen, Ineos are going to want to ride the wave of support they have gathered. Having a summer as you describe would quickly have fans up in arms, as well as the fact the staff at the club would be in uproar. A season where we look like we'll be lucky to get 5th, followed by no investment just isn't feasible.
I also don't think Ten Hag will be allowed another transfer window calling the shots. His future is up in the air, no chance they let him pick the targets when he could well be gone before next season is over, if he's even here at the start of next season.
Writing all this out probably leans me towards Ashworth having some sort of input, but that makes me think negotiations are going to be prolonged due to the issue of getting people in the room.
I suspect Ashworth is keen not to get sued for breach of contract so I suspect he'll abide by the contractual requirements for gardening leave.If Ashworth is really the man they want for the job than I'm sure Dan and Berrada will be able to provide some input in a covert way. Prepaid phones that neither Newcastle nor City can track or meetings with third parties that will act as messengers that are not officially affiliated with United.
I mean who's going to say Ashworth can't meet with a 'friend' in his garden
Of course I'm ok with bringing in new and better players, I just hope it's not Ten Hag calling the shots, because in his two years he's been dreadful as Head of Recruitment.
Berrada has already been having talks and providing input to INEOS whilst on gardening leave. City surprisingly have acted with more class and professionalism than Newcastle. There’s a general understanding in business that this is going to happen when executives move between companies. Ashworth will likely be doing the same and it would be incredibly difficult for Newcastle to prove any wrongdoing.If Ashworth is really the man they want for the job than I'm sure Dan and Berrada will be able to provide some input in a covert way. Prepaid phones that neither Newcastle nor City can track or meetings with third parties that will act as messengers that are not officially affiliated with United.
I mean who's going to say Ashworth can't meet with a 'friend' in his garden
Of course I'm ok with bringing in new and better players, I just hope it's not Ten Hag calling the shots, because in his two years he's been dreadful as Head of Recruitment.
Exactly. You've got to be incredibly naive or ignorant of the business world to think behind the scenes stuff doesn't go on all the time. Joe Lewis recently being done for insider trading gives you an inkling of what goes on at levels above most of us.Berrada has already been having talks and providing input to INEOS whilst on gardening leave. City surprisingly have acted with more class and professionalism than Newcastle. There’s a general understanding in business that this is going to happen when executives move between companies. Ashworth will likely be doing the same and it would be incredibly difficult for Newcastle to prove any wrongdoing.
The difference between Berrada and Ashworth is that City are aware of it and allowing it. Executives move all the time and City probably think that having a reputation for being difficult won't help them in the future if they want to bring people in and don't want to be held to ransom by other clubs.Exactly. You've got to be incredibly naive or ignorant of the business world to think behind the scenes stuff doesn't go on all the time. Joe Lewis recently being done for insider trading gives you an inkling of what goes on at levels above most of us.
If Newcastle were to pursue that route, there would no decent footballing person worth their salt that would even consider making a move to them. That is one way to absolutely destroy your reputation. The old adage of cutting off ones nose to spite one’s face accurately describes newcastle’s approach to this and appropriate given it’s that ghoul Amanda Staveley leading negotiations.The difference between Berrada and Ashworth is that City are aware of it and allowing it. Executives move all the time and City probably think that having a reputation for being difficult won't help them in the future if they want to bring people in and don't want to be held to ransom by other clubs.
I expect Newcastle will soften their stance at some stage and a deal will be done to allow him to start work. But I also think there's a real risk for Ashworth personally if he's perceived to be doing something he shouldn't. Newcastle can well afford to sue him and tie him up in legal battles and incurring fortunes in costs. He's probably a wealthy man but not wealthy enough to spend (potentially) a million quid on Solicitors.
People do get sued for this type of thing by former employers.
People would move. They’d just insist on a fee being written into the contract for a release.If Newcastle were to pursue that route, there would no decent footballing person worth their salt that would even consider making a move to them. That is one way to absolutely destroy your reputation. The old adage of cutting off ones nose to spite one’s face accurately describes newcastle’s approach to this and appropriate given it’s that ghoul Amanda Staveley leading negotiations.
I'm just thinking that Newcastle havent thought this through properly. If they come down super hard on demanding £20m, wont this affect their future recruitment of other executives? Maybe I'm wrong here but if I'm in the same field as Ashworth then I would think twice about going to Newcastle knowing how hard it is to leave them.Berrada has already been having talks and providing input to INEOS whilst on gardening leave. City surprisingly have acted with more class and professionalism than Newcastle. There’s a general understanding in business that this is going to happen when executives move between companies. Ashworth will likely be doing the same and it would be incredibly difficult for Newcastle to prove any wrongdoing.
I don't think it'd have much effect.I'm just thinking that Newcastle havent thought this through properly. If they come down super hard on demanding £20m, wont this affect their future recruitment of other executives? Maybe I'm wrong here but if I'm in the same field as Ashworth then I would think twice about going to Newcastle knowing how hard it is to leave them.
EDIT: What RedRover said.
I disagree. If he’s signed a contract he should be held to it. If he’s daft enough to breach it - which just to be clear, I think he won’t be, then he’s fair game. Clubs are guaranteeing these blokes millions on fixed contracts, and paying money to get them to move jobs. If nobody enforced the terms of these contracts, what’s the point?If Newcastle were to pursue that route, there would no decent footballing person worth their salt that would even consider making a move to them. That is one way to absolutely destroy your reputation. The old adage of cutting off ones nose to spite one’s face accurately describes newcastle’s approach to this and appropriate given it’s that ghoul Amanda Staveley leading negotiations.
Again as I have mentioned previously, it is almost next to impossible for Newcastle to prove that he’s failed to abide with his gardening leave. Unless they’re following him or tapping up his phone, which I’m certain would break some UK privacy laws, and is a terrible look for a club that’s trying to look serious. No credible football person will want to be held hostage by a club especially when they’re seeking a better opportunity elsewhere. It makes Newcastle look incredibly petty and small time. If you want to earn respect in the footballing world, let Ashworth leave and go find a suitable replacement. That’s how you show your credibility and power.I disagree. If he’s signed a contract he should be held to it. If he’s daft enough to breach it - which just to be clear, I think he won’t be, then he’s fair game. Clubs are guaranteeing these blokes millions on fixed contracts, and paying money to get them to move jobs. If nobody enforced the terms of these contracts, what’s the point?
You can’t build a successful executive structure in any business and just allow people to walk away to your rival at the drop of a hat. That’s madness, and any big club would try to throw their weight around in that position.
And the Saudi’s will want to show they won’t be fobbed off by “big” clubs. And their money will get them a high class replacement, guaranteed.
He signed a no doubt very lucrative contract. I fully expect he’s sensible enough to abide by its terms until the clubs reach a deal and he’s released. Just to note, if he’s sued, he’s got to wear that, not United - unless they indemnify him, which I suspect they won’t. The contract he’ll be offered will contain all the same terms as the one he’s on now.
Release Clauses for back room staff incoming.I disagree. If he’s signed a contract he should be held to it. If he’s daft enough to breach it - which just to be clear, I think he won’t be, then he’s fair game. Clubs are guaranteeing these blokes millions on fixed contracts, and paying money to get them to move jobs. If nobody enforced the terms of these contracts, what’s the point?
You can’t build a successful executive structure in any business and just allow people to walk away to your rival at the drop of a hat. That’s madness, and any big club would try to throw their weight around in that position.
And the Saudi’s will want to show they won’t be fobbed off by “big” clubs. And their money will get them a high class replacement, guaranteed.
He signed a no doubt very lucrative contract. I fully expect he’s sensible enough to abide by its terms until the clubs reach a deal and he’s released. Just to note, if he’s sued, he’s got to wear that, not United - unless they indemnify him, which I suspect they won’t. The contract he’ll be offered will contain all the same terms as the one he’s on now.
In this scenario, you don't have to "prove it" to kick off Court proceedings. You would likely seek an urgent injunction in the short term. Everyone would then have to give witness evidence at a Court Hearing, obviously including the former employee, and would have be honest and clear on exactly what had gone on. The Court might order disclosure of phone records and/or emails etc. If someone lied (which nobody sensible or with any decent legal advice would do) they'd be potentially subject to criminal prosecution. Meanwhile, the press would be all over it, to nobody's benefit.Again as I have mentioned previously, it is almost next to impossible for Newcastle to prove that he’s failed to abide with his gardening leave. Unless they’re following him or tapping up his phone, which I’m certain would break some UK privacy laws, and is a terrible look for a club that’s trying to look serious. No credible football person will want to be held hostage by a club especially when they’re seeking a better opportunity elsewhere. It makes Newcastle look incredibly petty and small time. If you want to earn respect in the footballing world, let Ashworth leave and go find a suitable replacement. That’s how you show your credibility and power.
Yeah, I think they'll soften once they get a replacement and a deal will be done eventually.Release Clauses for back room staff incoming.
With FFP in place once they get a replacement they won’t want to be paying 2 DoFs, I reckon it’ll be sorted shortly after they can parade Mitchell.
Why would anyone be that daft to use their own phone? With how people use the dark Web and other things surely it's not that difficult for him to communicate with United his recommendations. In fact regular meet ups with Brailsford, his long time friend, can be defended as they knew each other before all this - what stipulation is there in his contracts that limits him from physically meeting his old friend to catch up every now and then?In this scenario, you don't have to "prove it" to kick off Court proceedings. You would likely seek an urgent injunction in the short term. Everyone would then have to give witness evidence at a Court Hearing, obviously including the former employee, and would have be honest and clear on exactly what had gone on. The Court might order disclosure of phone records and/or emails etc. If someone lied (which nobody sensible or with any decent legal advice would do) they'd be potentially subject to criminal prosecution. Meanwhile, the press would be all over it, to nobody's benefit.
What you think about how this makes Newcastle look is irrelevant. They are, as it stands, holding him to his contract. United might well do the same if someone came in for one of their top people. The Newcastle owners clearly don't want to bow down to one of the traditional "big clubs" and I can understand why, given the message that'll send to the fans. These executives are as important as players and managers now, with structures put in place around them but it's not "petty" to expect professionals to be held to their contract. United will expect the same.
And every football person is "held hostage" under the terms of their contract. I'm sure you'd expect Real Madrid to pay up for Garnacho if he decided that was a "better opportunity". Or would you just release him from his conwtract and let him go with a pat on the back?
They wouldn't, but that's not really the point. I've acted in cases like this, and if you're interested, the process generally works like this.Why would anyone be that daft to use their own phone? With how people use the dark Web and other things surely it's not that difficult for him to communicate with United his recommendations. In fact regular meet ups with Brailsford, his long time friend, can be defended as they knew each other before all this - what stipulation is there in his contracts that limits him from physically meeting his old friend to catch up every now and then?
Mendy 52m and Philips 45m? That's not really expensive.They've still had their share of expensive signings. Mendy, Phillips, Grealish not doing too hot. Gvardiol's been injured a fair bit/played out of position since signing too but think he will be worth it.
I understand where you are coming from and Newcastle look like the exact type of employer that will pursue this because their pride has been hurt. The issue is we can't go on forever without his input given how wrong appointments and signings can take the club back several years. I think something has to give, we either compromise or he takes it up with the Labour Court.They wouldn't, but that's not really the point. I've acted in cases like this, and if you're interested, the process generally works like this.
The value in these clauses for high level executives/key people in a business is the threat that an employer with deep pockets and who wants to make a point, will pursue an injunction/damages if they suspect you are in breach. I could have an application drafted, in to Court and heard the next day to seek an interim injunction. Then the process kicks in and everyone needs to prepare for a return hearing where all the evidence is aired. If there's any substance to the allegations it'll come out then because (in my experience) it always does.
The risk to anyone subject to this (putting aside the cost of your own lawyers, and risk of having to pay a fortune in costs/damages at the end) is that they have to stand up in Court and have two options: tell the truth and see if a Judge thinks your actions put you in breach based on the facts, or don't tell the truth. If you're caught out on the latter you're potentially going to prison, you'll certainly lose the job you had lined up, and probably struggle to get another one.
The club won't encourage him to do anything that might lead to the above, because it would also be party to any proceedings and someone there would have to give evidence and the same risks apply.
To answer your question, there is absolutely nothing stopping one person from meeting another. The advice any lawyer will give to either party would be not to do it, because whether it is innocent or not, it'll be perceived to be the latter. You only need to convince a Judge on the balance of probabilities in cases such as this, i.e. 51% or "more likely than not" and you'd probably say that's realistic in the circumstances.
These clauses do work in practice where employers aggressively police it, mainly because people are not willing to risk their own money and reputation to benefit their future employer. The fear is that they turn on you if the previous employer takes action.
If Newcastle were to commence proceedings against ashworth, it only goes to prove my original point: petty, small-time and reputation destroying. You’ve done this work, so I’m certain you’d appreciate that reputation matters for organizations that want to continue to attract talent. Suing your former employee without having evidence of wrongdoing is one way to tarnish your brand.In this scenario, you don't have to "prove it" to kick off Court proceedings. You would likely seek an urgent injunction in the short term. Everyone would then have to give witness evidence at a Court Hearing, obviously including the former employee, and would have be honest and clear on exactly what had gone on. The Court might order disclosure of phone records and/or emails etc. If someone lied (which nobody sensible or with any decent legal advice would do) they'd be potentially subject to criminal prosecution. Meanwhile, the press would be all over it, to nobody's benefit.
What you think about how this makes Newcastle look is irrelevant. They are, as it stands, holding him to his contract. United might well do the same if someone came in for one of their top people. The Newcastle owners clearly don't want to bow down to one of the traditional "big clubs" and I can understand why, given the message that'll send to the fans. These executives are as important as players and managers now, with structures put in place around them but it's not "petty" to expect professionals to be held to their contract. United will expect the same.
And every football person is "held hostage" under the terms of their contract. I'm sure you'd expect Real Madrid to pay up for Garnacho if he decided that was a "better opportunity". Or would you just release him from his contract and let him go with a pat on the back?
It has to be option two but with honesty from the club to fans. If the right player becomes available and within our budget we bring them in. We need to decide how we want to play and bring the right manager and players into the club capable of playing that way.One thing is for sure, Berrada has taken by far the hardest job in football.
This club is a big big mess.
I hope he can fix it, but I'm not sure.
He might get sabotaged by the media and backstabbed from within.
There is two ways he can start his job.
Option A is to only make minor changes and try to get the best out of the club/ squad within the larger framework to avoid hardships and a potential sacking.
In this case most of us will be disappointed by 2025 and want him out, because nothing much will change really. Maybe regular top 3 finishes in the league, but the same structural problems will still be present.
Option B will be what's really neccessary, meaning to tear down the house and rebuild it from the ground up.
Kick in the whole rotten structure.
Some players, the media, and a lot of agents won't like this and there will be a tremendous uproar, because lazy and shady folks will be exposed and sent packing. The pressure will be tremendous and every little mishap or negative result will be multiplied by 50 in the press.
I'm not sure Berrada would survive this scenario. Sir Jim might cave in, because the fanbase might turn on him and lose patience.
Things need to get worse for us, before they get better.
People are still commenting, how we only need to sell 4-5 players and buy Olise, Toney and a CB and we're good.
This is exactly the type of nonsense we've been doing for over a decade and it got us nowhere.
What we need to do is rebuild the structure from the ground up.
Put more emphasis on the academy and give more promising young players a chance and be patient with them, i.e. don't give them a huge contract after 5 good performances to keep them hungry instead of turning them into lazy and spoiled brats at 20 (looking at you Rashford, looking at you Sancho).
When buying players we need to concentrate more on their personality and track record (are they proven winners? Consummate pros?) rather then their ability alone.
Similar to the pre-Draft process NFL teams undertake. It's no guarantee, but it can help in buying the right players.
Mentality is everything in modern football.
Every team is talented and the margin between players gets slimmer and slimmer.
It's the attitude and hunger that decides whether Haaland becomes Haaland or Arnautovic.
We need to stay away from these fecking cancerous players that we have been a magnet for over the last decade. It's killing our club.
Berrada has to deliver. I hope he has big balls.
Probably in the summer if he doesn’t have second thoughts.When does he start his new role?
I think I read June 1st somewhere, can’t remember whereWhen does he start his new role?
The delay is obviously a problem as some big decisions have to be made; not least what's happening with the manager, and I suspect Ashworth will want direct input into other hires in the executive team as well.I understand where you are coming from and Newcastle look like the exact type of employer that will pursue this because their pride has been hurt. The issue is we can't go on forever without his input given how wrong appointments and signings can take the club back several years. I think something has to give, we either compromise or he takes it up with the Labour Court.
It's looking more and more likely that we are going to need a new manager and make some big signings in the summer. Say we hire Southgate and sign Braithwaite for 70m, Olise or 60m and Onana for 70m and they all turn out to be duds. That will be Southgate, Mount, McTominay, Braithwaite, Onana, Antony that we will need to clear out and that will also be 500m down the drain.
This is a pivotal summer, our issues with the manager and certain players can't be kicked down the road any longer so we might have to compromise and give Newcastle the win they crave, they don't win much anyway so we might as well be charitable.
My point (set out in another post below responding to someone else) is that they most likely would never have to sue him because he'll abide by his contractual terms. The implied threat of action is usually enough to stop people being stupid enough to put themselves in the firing line. Seems like he fully intends to comply, since the club are still trying to negotiate a resolution.If Newcastle were to commence proceedings against ashworth, it only goes to prove my original point: petty, small-time and reputation destroying. You’ve done this work, so I’m certain you’d appreciate that reputation matters for organizations that want to continue to attract talent. Suing your former employee without having evidence of wrongdoing is one way to tarnish your brand.
Conflating player comparisons to executive moves doesn’t really go to further advance your point, it’s two completely different scenarios. Clubs do not typically stand in the way of executives wanting to make a move up. City have handled the Berrada with far more class than newcastle, as they seem to appreciate the reality that people move when presented with better opportunities.
Anyone saying he does?Probably in the summer if he doesn’t have second thoughts.
No. Just a snipe at our poor season.Anyone saying he does?