Well, it's worked so far with City sending Ed Woodward to us and paying the Glazers an extra billion to buy us too.
Omar Berrada | Man Utd CEO
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There's not a lot Ashworth could have done about that - and, after Tonali got charges and before Ashworth was linked with us, the Newcastle journos (Luke Edwards in particular) were saying that too.
Not to be overly negative, but … no, no, and no, no, no.
The fact that we’re willing to wait, and Newcastle are not willing to let go, is an indication of his worth, not his lack of worth.
No smoke without fire is a saying, not a law if nature, and it will be wrong in 90% of cases if not restricted to were it fits. The only place where it fits less than in the case of tabloid hearsay rumours, is in the case of car sales pitches (I mean, when he says that it’s a steal, it has to at least be a very good buy, hasn’t it?).
The effect of a Sporting Director will not be noticeable on team results within two seasons, and particularily not when manager is already hired just prior to DoF and starts off doing pretty well.
And he doesn’t seem to be getting any blame for Tonali’s secrets, at least not by anyone who knows anything at all.
With Berrada not joining until summer and Ashworth looking likely to be even later than that, could this summer be a bit of a struggle?
We regularly hear about how clubs work on their summer plans from around January well who is making those plans for us? I understand that both will likely be I'm contact privately, but neither can get too involved and risk it blowing up in their face with disputes from City/Newcastle.
The annoying thing is it seems to be halting all other appointments as we want to work top down, something I agree we should be doing, but it is still infuriating seeing us have to go slow yet again at a time where there is a wave of optimism.
Are we currently linked with anyone that is close to signing? I remember us linked with Wilcox, but all seems to have gone quiet on that front.
We regularly hear about how clubs work on their summer plans from around January well who is making those plans for us? I understand that both will likely be I'm contact privately, but neither can get too involved and risk it blowing up in their face with disputes from City/Newcastle.
The annoying thing is it seems to be halting all other appointments as we want to work top down, something I agree we should be doing, but it is still infuriating seeing us have to go slow yet again at a time where there is a wave of optimism.
Are we currently linked with anyone that is close to signing? I remember us linked with Wilcox, but all seems to have gone quiet on that front.
First two paragraphs aren’t really reasons. The man wass employed elsewhere and then papers are just linking us with any ex colleague.
Third one - people still don’t seem to get his role. Ashworth isn’t finding/picking players, you can argue he’s ultimately responsible for anything recruitment related in the same way a CEO is ultimately responsible for things that happen at a company. He sits on top and basically builds/manages the structure.
The thing with gardening leave is that it does not work in practice. They will be in the fold in some capacity either way.
Obviously better to go on without the gardening leave, but here we are.
So with that said, I believe we will have a very good summer.
@Andy_Cole regarding 3 you need to bear in mind that Ashworth wants to leave Newcastle because he’s been dragged into a turf war with “head of scouting“ Andy Howe, who just happens to be Eddie’s nephew. How much of the recruitment, good or bad, has actually been down to him is open to question.
The Potter and (especially) Southgate links won’t go away while Potter is unemployed and both Southgate’s and EtH’s futures are uncertain.
Regarding your first point, it’s hardly United’s fault that it’s taking a while. It does look like we are refusing to crumble under Newcastle’s pressure for compensation, which I certainly regard as a good thing.
The Potter and (especially) Southgate links won’t go away while Potter is unemployed and both Southgate’s and EtH’s futures are uncertain.
Regarding your first point, it’s hardly United’s fault that it’s taking a while. It does look like we are refusing to crumble under Newcastle’s pressure for compensation, which I certainly regard as a good thing.
Looks like he is supposed to be the main man for the time being. Let's hope he is up to it.
I guess the lad that always made the plans...the manager.
Given Ten Hag's track record as head of recruitment I'm actually scared of the next transfer window.
He's probably going to sell more promising young players like Amad and Gore, only to buy Sterling and Joselu....
I hope Sir Jim keeps the war chest locked until Berrada and a DoF are in place and established, meaning January 2025.
Just get rid of the dead wood and loan a backup striker for one year.
Give the likes of Kambwala, Gore etc. a chance and then let Berrada and the DoF do their jobs and revamp the squad.
Please no more Ten Hag splashing the cash nightmare!
I'm not so sure on this, there is a reason all clubs have it in the contract, if it wasn't worth the paper it's written on then why bother?
Yeah that's not going to happen, Ineos are going to want to ride the wave of support they have gathered. Having a summer as you describe would quickly have fans up in arms, as well as the fact the staff at the club would be in uproar. A season where we look like we'll be lucky to get 5th, followed by no investment just isn't feasible.
I also don't think Ten Hag will be allowed another transfer window calling the shots. His future is up in the air, no chance they let him pick the targets when he could well be gone before next season is over, if he's even here at the start of next season.
Writing all this out probably leans me towards Ashworth having some sort of input, but that makes me think negotiations are going to be prolonged due to the issue of getting people in the room.
If Ashworth is really the man they want for the job than I'm sure Dan and Berrada will be able to provide some input in a covert way. Prepaid phones that neither Newcastle nor City can track or meetings with third parties that will act as messengers that are not officially affiliated with United.
I mean who's going to say Ashworth can't meet with a 'friend' in his garden
Of course I'm ok with bringing in new and better players, I just hope it's not Ten Hag calling the shots, because in his two years he's been dreadful as Head of Recruitment.
I suspect Ashworth is keen not to get sued for breach of contract so I suspect he'll abide by the contractual requirements for gardening leave.If Ashworth is really the man they want for the job than I'm sure Dan and Berrada will be able to provide some input in a covert way. Prepaid phones that neither Newcastle nor City can track or meetings with third parties that will act as messengers that are not officially affiliated with United.
I mean who's going to say Ashworth can't meet with a 'friend' in his garden
Of course I'm ok with bringing in new and better players, I just hope it's not Ten Hag calling the shots, because in his two years he's been dreadful as Head of Recruitment.
These clauses are, to some degree, effective because nobody wants to get sued. It's aggravation you don't need. Nobody will be running around with burner phones.
I'm personally glad the club aren't being stitched up on the compensation. Newcastle's stance will likely soften because they're still paying his salary for no benefit. It also causes potential difficulty for them if they're going for someone already in a job to replace him.
Berrada has already been having talks and providing input to INEOS whilst on gardening leave. City surprisingly have acted with more class and professionalism than Newcastle. There’s a general understanding in business that this is going to happen when executives move between companies. Ashworth will likely be doing the same and it would be incredibly difficult for Newcastle to prove any wrongdoing.If Ashworth is really the man they want for the job than I'm sure Dan and Berrada will be able to provide some input in a covert way. Prepaid phones that neither Newcastle nor City can track or meetings with third parties that will act as messengers that are not officially affiliated with United.
I mean who's going to say Ashworth can't meet with a 'friend' in his garden
Of course I'm ok with bringing in new and better players, I just hope it's not Ten Hag calling the shots, because in his two years he's been dreadful as Head of Recruitment.
Exactly. You've got to be incredibly naive or ignorant of the business world to think behind the scenes stuff doesn't go on all the time. Joe Lewis recently being done for insider trading gives you an inkling of what goes on at levels above most of us.
The difference between Berrada and Ashworth is that City are aware of it and allowing it. Executives move all the time and City probably think that having a reputation for being difficult won't help them in the future if they want to bring people in and don't want to be held to ransom by other clubs.
I expect Newcastle will soften their stance at some stage and a deal will be done to allow him to start work. But I also think there's a real risk for Ashworth personally if he's perceived to be doing something he shouldn't. Newcastle can well afford to sue him and tie him up in legal battles and incurring fortunes in costs. He's probably a wealthy man but not wealthy enough to spend (potentially) a million quid on Solicitors.
People do get sued for this type of thing by former employers.
If Newcastle were to pursue that route, there would no decent footballing person worth their salt that would even consider making a move to them. That is one way to absolutely destroy your reputation. The old adage of cutting off ones nose to spite one’s face accurately describes newcastle’s approach to this and appropriate given it’s that ghoul Amanda Staveley leading negotiations.
People would move. They’d just insist on a fee being written into the contract for a release.
I suspect Newcastle are simply waiting to get in their person & will come to an agreement. With PSR they can’t be paying 2 bods.
I'm just thinking that Newcastle havent thought this through properly. If they come down super hard on demanding £20m, wont this affect their future recruitment of other executives? Maybe I'm wrong here but if I'm in the same field as Ashworth then I would think twice about going to Newcastle knowing how hard it is to leave them.
EDIT: What RedRover said.
I don't think it'd have much effect.
You won't have many execs moving to Newcastle who are thinking about a potential move to one of the few clubs bigger in the future. The move to Newcastle and vast riches will be THE move.
I disagree. If he’s signed a contract he should be held to it. If he’s daft enough to breach it - which just to be clear, I think he won’t be, then he’s fair game. Clubs are guaranteeing these blokes millions on fixed contracts, and paying money to get them to move jobs. If nobody enforced the terms of these contracts, what’s the point?
You can’t build a successful executive structure in any business and just allow people to walk away to your rival at the drop of a hat. That’s madness, and any big club would try to throw their weight around in that position.
And the Saudi’s will want to show they won’t be fobbed off by “big” clubs. And their money will get them a high class replacement, guaranteed.
He signed a no doubt very lucrative contract. I fully expect he’s sensible enough to abide by its terms until the clubs reach a deal and he’s released. Just to note, if he’s sued, he’s got to wear that, not United - unless they indemnify him, which I suspect they won’t. The contract he’ll be offered will contain all the same terms as the one he’s on now.
Berrada starts on June 1st which means in real terms he’s going to be starting on May 1st, but in his own head, he must be thinking as a football Man type CEO that the current coach and his brand of football where the team is far too inconsistent, let’s not forget that Ashworth will work for Omar Berrada, so a simple conversation between the two is Omar telling Dan who can’t start to August/September that he will be appointing a coach and Dan needs to get to work with changing the calibre of the squad, we need 13-14 players to go.
We need to get DOF, Head of recruitment, new technical director concentrating on selling the obvious 8 or 9, releasing 2 or 3 obvious players, sending some players back Dan and his boys can stop pushing the English Potter/Southgate new manager agenda.
Eddie Howe will be gone by the summer so we need to make sure we get onto Naigelsman, get proper players in like Ivan Toney, Kimmich, Todibo, Olise and who ever else we can get that doesn’t mind working hard for the team.
We need a coach that’s not scared to change any player and that includes Bruno and Rashford?
We need to get DOF, Head of recruitment, new technical director concentrating on selling the obvious 8 or 9, releasing 2 or 3 obvious players, sending some players back Dan and his boys can stop pushing the English Potter/Southgate new manager agenda.
Eddie Howe will be gone by the summer so we need to make sure we get onto Naigelsman, get proper players in like Ivan Toney, Kimmich, Todibo, Olise and who ever else we can get that doesn’t mind working hard for the team.
We need a coach that’s not scared to change any player and that includes Bruno and Rashford?
He’s going to be looking at it all without emotion. We pay too much. We sign old players or the wrong players for the kind of football we need to play. We need to consistently stamp our authority on teams that are spending less than us and somehow find a way to get an edge against the clubs with similar ambitions. We are a long way off that. We need special players who will dominate their zone instead of passing the work onto a teammate to drag them over the line. We need more physicality and aggression to do that. We don’t pin teams down far enough. We play like underdogs. Our facilities and stadium are poor.
He has a big job on when we are out worked nearly every weekend.
He has a big job on when we are out worked nearly every weekend.
Again as I have mentioned previously, it is almost next to impossible for Newcastle to prove that he’s failed to abide with his gardening leave. Unless they’re following him or tapping up his phone, which I’m certain would break some UK privacy laws, and is a terrible look for a club that’s trying to look serious. No credible football person will want to be held hostage by a club especially when they’re seeking a better opportunity elsewhere. It makes Newcastle look incredibly petty and small time. If you want to earn respect in the footballing world, let Ashworth leave and go find a suitable replacement. That’s how you show your credibility and power.
Release Clauses for back room staff incoming.
With FFP in place once they get a replacement they won’t want to be paying 2 DoFs, I reckon it’ll be sorted shortly after they can parade Mitchell.
In this scenario, you don't have to "prove it" to kick off Court proceedings. You would likely seek an urgent injunction in the short term. Everyone would then have to give witness evidence at a Court Hearing, obviously including the former employee, and would have be honest and clear on exactly what had gone on. The Court might order disclosure of phone records and/or emails etc. If someone lied (which nobody sensible or with any decent legal advice would do) they'd be potentially subject to criminal prosecution. Meanwhile, the press would be all over it, to nobody's benefit.
What you think about how this makes Newcastle look is irrelevant. They are, as it stands, holding him to his contract. United might well do the same if someone came in for one of their top people. The Newcastle owners clearly don't want to bow down to one of the traditional "big clubs" and I can understand why, given the message that'll send to the fans. These executives are as important as players and managers now, with structures put in place around them but it's not "petty" to expect professionals to be held to their contract. United will expect the same.
And every football person is "held hostage" under the terms of their contract. I'm sure you'd expect Real Madrid to pay up for Garnacho if he decided that was a "better opportunity". Or would you just release him from his contract and let him go with a pat on the back?
Yeah, I think they'll soften once they get a replacement and a deal will be done eventually.
Can't blame them for not rolling over. They're trying to make sure people respect them in negotiations. Getting a reputation for weakness won't help them. Hopefully United would do the same in the same circumstances.
Why would anyone be that daft to use their own phone? With how people use the dark Web and other things surely it's not that difficult for him to communicate with United his recommendations. In fact regular meet ups with Brailsford, his long time friend, can be defended as they knew each other before all this - what stipulation is there in his contracts that limits him from physically meeting his old friend to catch up every now and then?
They wouldn't, but that's not really the point. I've acted in cases like this, and if you're interested, the process generally works like this.
The value in these clauses for high level executives/key people in a business is the threat that an employer with deep pockets and who wants to make a point, will pursue an injunction/damages if they suspect you are in breach. I could have an application drafted, in to Court and heard the next day to seek an interim injunction. Then the process kicks in and everyone needs to prepare for a return hearing where all the evidence is aired. If there's any substance to the allegations it'll come out then because (in my experience) it always does.
The risk to anyone subject to this (putting aside the cost of your own lawyers, and risk of having to pay a fortune in costs/damages at the end) is that they have to stand up in Court and have two options: tell the truth and see if a Judge thinks your actions put you in breach based on the facts, or don't tell the truth. If you're caught out on the latter you're potentially going to prison, you'll certainly lose the job you had lined up, and probably struggle to get another one.
The club won't encourage him to do anything that might lead to the above, because it would also be party to any proceedings and someone there would have to give evidence and the same risks apply.
To answer your question, there is absolutely nothing stopping one person from meeting another. The advice any lawyer will give to either party would be not to do it, because whether it is innocent or not, it'll be perceived to be the latter. You only need to convince a Judge on the balance of probabilities in cases such as this, i.e. 51% or "more likely than not" and you'd probably say that's realistic in the circumstances.
These clauses do work in practice where employers aggressively police it, mainly because people are not willing to risk their own money and reputation to benefit their future employer. The fear is that they turn on you if the previous employer takes action.
Mendy 52m and Philips 45m? That's not really expensive.
I understand where you are coming from and Newcastle look like the exact type of employer that will pursue this because their pride has been hurt. The issue is we can't go on forever without his input given how wrong appointments and signings can take the club back several years. I think something has to give, we either compromise or he takes it up with the Labour Court.
It's looking more and more likely that we are going to need a new manager and make some big signings in the summer. Say we hire Southgate and sign Braithwaite for 70m, Olise or 60m and Onana for 70m and they all turn out to be duds. That will be Southgate, Mount, McTominay, Braithwaite, Onana, Antony that we will need to clear out and that will also be 500m down the drain.
This is a pivotal summer, our issues with the manager and certain players can't be kicked down the road any longer so we might have to compromise and give Newcastle the win they crave, they don't win much anyway so we might as well be charitable.
One thing is for sure, Berrada has taken by far the hardest job in football.
This club is a big big mess.
I hope he can fix it, but I'm not sure.
He might get sabotaged by the media and backstabbed from within.
There is two ways he can start his job.
Option A is to only make minor changes and try to get the best out of the club/ squad within the larger framework to avoid hardships and a potential sacking.
In this case most of us will be disappointed by 2025 and want him out, because nothing much will change really. Maybe regular top 3 finishes in the league, but the same structural problems will still be present.
Option B will be what's really neccessary, meaning to tear down the house and rebuild it from the ground up.
Kick in the whole rotten structure.
Some players, the media, and a lot of agents won't like this and there will be a tremendous uproar, because lazy and shady folks will be exposed and sent packing. The pressure will be tremendous and every little mishap or negative result will be multiplied by 50 in the press.
I'm not sure Berrada would survive this scenario. Sir Jim might cave in, because the fanbase might turn on him and lose patience.
Things need to get worse for us, before they get better.
People are still commenting, how we only need to sell 4-5 players and buy Olise, Toney and a CB and we're good.
This is exactly the type of nonsense we've been doing for over a decade and it got us nowhere.
What we need to do is rebuild the structure from the ground up.
Put more emphasis on the academy and give more promising young players a chance and be patient with them, i.e. don't give them a huge contract after 5 good performances to keep them hungry instead of turning them into lazy and spoiled brats at 20 (looking at you Rashford, looking at you Sancho).
When buying players we need to concentrate more on their personality and track record (are they proven winners? Consummate pros?) rather then their ability alone.
Similar to the pre-Draft process NFL teams undertake. It's no guarantee, but it can help in buying the right players.
Mentality is everything in modern football.
Every team is talented and the margin between players gets slimmer and slimmer.
It's the attitude and hunger that decides whether Haaland becomes Haaland or Arnautovic.
We need to stay away from these fecking cancerous players that we have been a magnet for over the last decade. It's killing our club.
Berrada has to deliver. I hope he has big balls.
This club is a big big mess.
I hope he can fix it, but I'm not sure.
He might get sabotaged by the media and backstabbed from within.
There is two ways he can start his job.
Option A is to only make minor changes and try to get the best out of the club/ squad within the larger framework to avoid hardships and a potential sacking.
In this case most of us will be disappointed by 2025 and want him out, because nothing much will change really. Maybe regular top 3 finishes in the league, but the same structural problems will still be present.
Option B will be what's really neccessary, meaning to tear down the house and rebuild it from the ground up.
Kick in the whole rotten structure.
Some players, the media, and a lot of agents won't like this and there will be a tremendous uproar, because lazy and shady folks will be exposed and sent packing. The pressure will be tremendous and every little mishap or negative result will be multiplied by 50 in the press.
I'm not sure Berrada would survive this scenario. Sir Jim might cave in, because the fanbase might turn on him and lose patience.
Things need to get worse for us, before they get better.
People are still commenting, how we only need to sell 4-5 players and buy Olise, Toney and a CB and we're good.
This is exactly the type of nonsense we've been doing for over a decade and it got us nowhere.
What we need to do is rebuild the structure from the ground up.
Put more emphasis on the academy and give more promising young players a chance and be patient with them, i.e. don't give them a huge contract after 5 good performances to keep them hungry instead of turning them into lazy and spoiled brats at 20 (looking at you Rashford, looking at you Sancho).
When buying players we need to concentrate more on their personality and track record (are they proven winners? Consummate pros?) rather then their ability alone.
Similar to the pre-Draft process NFL teams undertake. It's no guarantee, but it can help in buying the right players.
Mentality is everything in modern football.
Every team is talented and the margin between players gets slimmer and slimmer.
It's the attitude and hunger that decides whether Haaland becomes Haaland or Arnautovic.
We need to stay away from these fecking cancerous players that we have been a magnet for over the last decade. It's killing our club.
Berrada has to deliver. I hope he has big balls.
If Newcastle were to commence proceedings against ashworth, it only goes to prove my original point: petty, small-time and reputation destroying. You’ve done this work, so I’m certain you’d appreciate that reputation matters for organizations that want to continue to attract talent. Suing your former employee without having evidence of wrongdoing is one way to tarnish your brand.
Conflating player comparisons to executive moves doesn’t really go to further advance your point, it’s two completely different scenarios. Clubs do not typically stand in the way of executives wanting to make a move up. City have handled the Berrada with far more class than newcastle, as they seem to appreciate the reality that people move when presented with better opportunities.
It has to be option two but with honesty from the club to fans. If the right player becomes available and within our budget we bring them in. We need to decide how we want to play and bring the right manager and players into the club capable of playing that way.
When does he start his new role?
Probably in the summer if he doesn’t have second thoughts.
I think I read June 1st somewhere, can’t remember where
The delay is obviously a problem as some big decisions have to be made; not least what's happening with the manager, and I suspect Ashworth will want direct input into other hires in the executive team as well.
I suppose they must think he's worth waiting for. It is a very important summer but I suspect INEOS have the long game in mind.
I can see why both clubs have taken the position they have. Newcastle are trying to become one of the genuine big clubs in Europe. They perhaps thought that the delay and ability to keep him under contract for an extended period may scare us off. United have had a reputation of being a soft touch in negotiations and that's a real problem.
Surely once Newcastle replace him their stance will soften. They'll have made their point by then.
My point (set out in another post below responding to someone else) is that they most likely would never have to sue him because he'll abide by his contractual terms. The implied threat of action is usually enough to stop people being stupid enough to put themselves in the firing line. Seems like he fully intends to comply, since the club are still trying to negotiate a resolution.
What we're talking about is expecting someone to abide by the terms of their contract. He can leave, but he has to take gardening leave. How does that tarnish their brand? It's perfectly reasonable and shows that they won't be pushed around by other clubs. Good for them. If I were the next man in at Newcastle I'd have no problem with that because it should make my job easier. I hope United would take a similar stance instead of rolling over, even if a deal would likely, eventually be done.
And I disagree with your last point. You're talking about one of the best people at what he does in world football. He's an asset to his club, will have a load of insider knowledge re transfers and targets etc. And they're not standing in his way, simply making him take a mandated period of leave.
I assume then if Berrada does a great job in the next 18 months and wants to bail to Barcelona (perhaps taking a load of insider knowledge with him) you'd be happy for the club to just roll over and let him walk?
Anyone saying he does?
No. Just a snipe at our poor season.