Ruben Amorim - Manchester United Head Coach | Thread locked during matches

[mctrials23]

I think any coach will struggle if your team cannot pass the ball to a teammate. As though a new coach will all of a sudden turn us into prime Manchester United, we might be slightly better but that is all and then people will still moan. We have a mainly slow, technically inept squad with some having no footballing intelligence. Losing the likes of Shaw, Mount, Martinez and Amad is terrible, then it was also lacking Ugarte who adds a bit of bite. A fit Shaw would have been a great addition to this team, Mount is intelligent but has not been seen often enough. The makeup of the squad is a recipe for disaster and we have basically got away with it up to now.

Exactly. If you had to take out all the players that were vaguely suited to Amorims style of football the only one he isn't missing currently is Bruno. Hes come in mid-season and been dealt a shocking hand. Has he done well? No, not in my opinion. Is that surprising under the circumstances? Not even a little.

I was thinking about this earlier and I think the club are just in a shit position right now and bringing in Amorim at this point is no better or worse than if they had done it in the summer realistically. Cons, the players clearly aren't taking on board what he wants or are incapable of it and thats never good. Bad league position. Likely no europe. Pros, we know that a chunk of this squad needs binning, the Rashford situation has come to a head and we haven't wasted a full season of Amorim.

If Ruud took over for the rest of the season and we finished 7th or 8th lets say, what would have happened in the summer. We would have brought Amorim in, likely not bought him the players he actually needed and we would have had this current season next season and he would have had the knives out for him because he had a transfer window and a pre-season. There is a lot of talk of needing to sell before we buy. Currenly Rashford and Antony are on the chopping block. Would they have been if Ruud was still here? Probably not. Rashford would just have been next seasons issue.

We've got a strong history of over performing our underlying stats when it comes to league position and subsequently ignoring the fact we are a bit shit. That would 100% have happened this summer. I don't think there is much danger of that now.

 

[pocco]

This line of thought is exclusive to this club. I have never heard a new manager at their new club needing to sign "their players" before they can show any improvement.

Look at the individual errors though, whether it's being loose in possession, wrong decisions, GK blunders or missing sitters. It's impossible to build anything when the players are making these mistakes, and I'm certain that they work on these things in training. Perhaps the players need to be talking to a psychologist to figure out why they have such a mental block on the pitch these days. It can't come down to formations or tactics because we're not even getting to the point where we can assess that, because of these mistakes.

Last seasons our xpts had us in 14th place, Ten Hag left us in 14th place and now we are in 14th place. Perhaps the answer is absolutely obvious...we're just not very good.

 

[Revival2024]

It’s absolutely crazy that Amorim has his head on the block. Just crazy.
Man Utd were the lowest and worst we’ve ever seen them in the premier league era. Have we all forgot Liverpool putting 7 past us. SEVEN.

He’s taken over the worst Man Utd at the worst time. The idea it’s his fault and he should have saved us is crazy. The whole club was and is in turmoil and crises and INOES have rightly said you need to get rid of high earning underperforming deadwood. They have also probably said that they can’t at the moment replace them and that he just has to get on with it.

Let’s see what the summer brings and get behind our manager. He’s got one hand tied behind his back but he’ll do better in time.

Weren't City already building a squad toward him coming as well, or at least getting the structure in place in the background.

Amorim is not Pep. He has no body of work to rely upon to get such a backing. He has to illustrate progress, even minimal. His current coaching set up can't get players to string 5 passes together. His team concede from nearly every set pieces. Almost every attack from the opposition leads to a goal. They can't seem to control games.

No matter how people dress it up, he will never and should never get 15 players to revolutionise the team. The best manager find ways to improve players and he hasn't.

Deep down, Amorim knows he is on his last legs. If you don't win games, you don't get more chances. Simples

 

[Insanity]

Look at the individual errors though, whether it's being loose in possession, wrong decisions, GK blunders or missing sitters. It's impossible to build anything when the players are making these mistakes, and I'm certain that they work on these things in training. Perhaps the players need to be talking to a psychologist to figure out why they have such a mental block on the pitch these days. It can't come down to formations or tactics because we're not even getting to the point where we can assess that, because of these mistakes.

Last seasons our xpts had us in 14th place, Ten Hag left us in 14th place and now we are in 14th place. Perhaps the answer is absolutely obvious...we're just not very good.

We are not very good, true. However, one coach lost his job and the other got hired because we wanted to do better than those Xpts and Rpts (Real points). If he could do only as bad TH, then there was no point in replacing him and spending a shit ton in firing him and hiring someone else. The new management team could have worked to improve the playing squad and let ETH continue with a better squad of players. He at least won two trophies with these shitehawks and wouldn't have needed 15 players to come in immediately.

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

Yeah Pep definitely didn’t sign 13 players in his first two seasons to shape the squad into the way he wanted to play. To use just one example.

This goes to my earlier point about a system needing to perform acceptably when implemented.

Guardiola's system worked acceptably well from the beginning. They finished 3rd with 78 points. They scored 80 goals. He did not need 13 players to implement his system!

Ok. He had a better squad. But Klopp's system also worked acceptably well from the beginning, and their squad was not very good! They won games with big scorelines, they reached two finals, they scored 8 goals less than the PL's highest scoring team that season. They were inconsistent, yes, but he did not need "his" players to show "his" style for at least a few games!

 

[Insanity]

This goes to my earlier point about a system needing to perform acceptably when implemented.

Guardiola's system worked acceptably well from the beginning. They finished 3rd with 78 points. They scored 80 goals. He did not need 13 players to implement his system!

Ok. He had a better squad. But Klopp's system also worked acceptably well from the beginning, and their squad was not very good! They won games with big scorelines, they reached two finals, they scored 8 goals less than the PL's highest scoring team that season. They were inconsistent, yes, but he did not need "his" players to show "his" style for at least a few games!

Exactly.

The idea that we cannot expect any improvement without "his players" is preposterous.

 

[DomesticTadpole]

You are living in coo coo land if yoh

Amorim is not Pep. He has no body of work to rely upon to get such a backing. He has to illustrate progress, even minimal. His current coaching set up can't get players to string 5 passes together. His team concede from nearly every set pieces. Almost every attack from the opposition leads to a goal. They can't seem to control games.

No matter how people dress it up, he will never and should never get 15 players to revolutionise the team. The best manager find ways to improve players and he hasn't.

Deep down, Amorim knows he is on his last legs. If you don't win games, you don't get more chances. Simples

They have hardly ever been able to pass the ball, from different squads to different managers. Maybe that is down to the signing we make. Where passing percentage has not been a priority, but it not being so has stopped us reaching a high level.

 

[Smores]

Exactly.

The idea that we cannot expect any improvement without "his players" is preposterous.

Using Pep as an example is fecking ludicrous l. He had Fernandinho, KdB, Silva, Aguero in his first line up. Wow I wonder why Pep was able to hit the ground running. Some of you are off your heads.

Even Klopp took over when they were 10th and finished a grand total of two places higher in 8th. It took major signings in the summer for them to jump to 4th the following season.

 

[Drainy]

Imagine being a coach, witnessing this from players not signed by you, and you’ve got people banging on about formations etc I sometimes wonder how coaches bite their lip with some of the rubbish fans and pundits come out with, but I suppose they just don’t want to throw their players under the bus.

"He's got to be more flexible with his system "

 

[stepic]

No one has asked him to win the league this season. The minimal ask is to improve performances and not lose 50% of your premier league games.

Yup, no else could have done that. Absolutely no one.

To add: Both Pep and Klopp were able to show signs of what they were building towards from the very beginning.

i'm not suggesting you did. you literally just said 'I have never heard a new manager at their new club needing to sign "their players" before they can show any improvement.' - did Pep come in and sign more than a dozen players in order to improve the team, and get them playing the way he wants them to play, or not? simple question.

Ok. He had a better squad. But Klopp's system also worked acceptably well from the beginning, and their squad was not very good! They won games with big scorelines, they reached two finals, they scored 8 goals less than the PL's highest scoring team that season. They were inconsistent, yes, but he did not need "his" players to show "his" style for at least a few games!

you guys consistently just throw this in like it's a trivial matter. it's the defining issue. even Klopp's Liverpool side he inherited had a functioning forward line that included 35 PL goals between Sturridge, Benteke, Coutinho and Firminho. compare that to our goal output from our forwards. come on, our attack is beyond bleak. and he still barely improved their league position his first season!

 

[hellhunter]

Yeah Pep definitely didn’t sign 13 players in his first two seasons to shape the squad into the way he wanted to play. To use just one example.

Kinda irrelevant since this isn't something we can do currently. We need a manager who can perform with 75% of the current squad

 

[Bilbo]

For me, the adaptability thing is an anxious way of thinking based on fear. Nobody likes going through bad spells but sometimes it's a necessary evil. When you're attempting to change a culture or mindset within an organisation, you just can't flip flop and change your mind on your principles or beliefs. There's no certainty about any managers philosophy working at a club but I certainly don't want Amorim to abandon what has made his previous tenures so impressive when we've got a squad that just isn't up to it regardless of formation.

4-3-3, 4-4-2, 3-4-3, 5-3-2, It doesn't matter, we're not good enough, we're not physically up to it or dynamic enough and we're not going to do anything this season that matters anyway beyond sneaking a Europa League (where I'd actually argue we've probably been most successful due to the lower physical floor of the competition, we're still the only undefeated team in Europe this season). So there's no real reason to change his approach in Europe, or there's no reason for anyone to ask him to do that in my opinion anyway.

I think people are underestimating what Amorim is actually doing here on the whole. There's a lot of psychological evaluation taking place of the squad. It's about more than just, can this group play this formation, well maybe we should switch to 4-3-3 as they are struggling. It's just as much about the mentality of the players, he's challenging them. He's saying you're not used to playing this way, system wise and physically. Can you do it? Are you willing to be coachable? It's essentially survival of the fittest within the squad. For his tenure so far and until the end of this season, for this group of players it's 'can you show me you can be part of change at this club, do you have the mentality and energy for that?'. It's everyday he'll be watching as well. Can you train like I need? Can you behave like a representative of this club? Can you take the instructions I'm giving you and implement it on the pitch? Are you physically up to it, or are you willing to put in the effort to be physically up to it? (Some will never manage that). This could completely blow up in my face but I truly believe if we can do some good business in the summer simply by raising our physical and mental floor with incomings and departures, we will be so, so much better under him.

Very good post. Promote this man

 

[mctrials23]

Using Pep as an example is fecking ludicrous l. He had Fernandinho, KdB, Silva, Aguero in his first line up. Wow I wonder why Pep was able to hit the ground running. Some of you are off your heads.

Even Klopp took over when they were 10th and finished a grand total of two places higher in 8th. It took major signings in the summer for them to jump to 4th the following season.

Astonishing right. One of the best strikers in PL history along with a world class DM and 2 absolutely WC CMs. Shocking how he wasn't relegated right?!

As to other managers coming in and doing better. Yes they do. And if we went for a manager that played 4-4-2 we would likely be having a much better season. As it is, we went for a manager who plays a completely different style of football that requires specialists in certain key positions. Positions in which we possess zero players of the right quality or style. I say specialists but what I mean is just quality players who can also run. These sort of players can work in a lot of systems but we don't have any of them.

I would argue that perhaps Mount would have been ideal for one of the 10s but he has been fit for precisely 10 minutes since Amorim arrived. Without the WBs and the 10s we simply cannot play his system effectively. Should he change it? I don't know. I don't know how much he could change it without completely abandoning it and then we have a manager playing a formation he doesn't like, know or even intend to play in the future. All for the benefit of a few league positions.

I think when he says he didn't think we would be this bad or struggle this much he was talking in holistic terms. He assumed (I think like many United managers) that you cannot have a squad that is this expensive and genuinely have players this poor. You cannot have players who cannot pass or do simple things like running when asked. He assumed they wouldn't have the mental resilience of Eyore.

 

[Crashoutcassius]

Look at the individual errors though, whether it's being loose in possession, wrong decisions, GK blunders or missing sitters. It's impossible to build anything when the players are making these mistakes, and I'm certain that they work on these things in training. Perhaps the players need to be talking to a psychologist to figure out why they have such a mental block on the pitch these days. It can't come down to formations or tactics because we're not even getting to the point where we can assess that, because of these mistakes.

Last seasons our xpts had us in 14th place, Ten Hag left us in 14th place and now we are in 14th place. Perhaps the answer is absolutely obvious...we're just not very good.

I think we signed Amorim in the hope that we would be better than the absolute worst that ten hag offered ?

 

[stepic]

Kinda irrelevant since this isn't something we can do currently. We need a manager who can perform with 75% of the current squad

it's not irrelevant because it negates Insanity's insane point about managers not ever needing to make their own signings to improve the team.

 

[stepic]

I think we signed Amorim in the hope that we would be better than the absolute worst that ten hag offered ?

yes, that's the plan. most sensible people just appreciate it will take more than 4 months and one signing to make that happen.

 

[hellhunter]

it's not irrelevant because it negates Insanity's insane point about managers not ever needing to make their own signings to improve the team.

It's not an insane take at all. The job is first and foremost to coach and improve the team. It's fair to say you can't expect the optimum without some chosen signings, it's nonsense to claim the coach shouldn't deliver at all without signings

 

[stepic]

It's not an insane take at all. The job is first and foremost to coach and improve the team. It's fair to say you can't expect the optimum without some chosen signings, it's nonsense to claim the coach shouldn't deliver at all without signings

when your squad is relying on goals from Hojlund, Zirkzee and Garnacho, I beg to differ.

 

[hellhunter]

when your squad is relying on goals from Hojlund, Zirkzee and Garnacho, I beg to differ.

We're going in circles, but the previous, also terribly failing coach, managed to get a minimum tune out of them and have them produce at least some numbers

 

[Parma Dewol]

So apparently a 4-4-2 and a new coach will make this team fly?
Absolutely shocking from everyone involved, except Bruno.

It's amazing Bruno still manages to find the will to get out of bed each morning. Talk about surrounded by dross.

 

[Posh Red]

Can anyone provide an example of a team that is as bad as United at passing the ball, who then improved in that aspect dramatically simply by changing the manager?

 

[hellhunter]

Can anyone provide an example of a team that is as bad as United at passing the ball, who then improved in that aspect dramatically simply by changing the manager?

Can you name one that improved under those circumstances without changing the manager?

 

[pocco]

I think we signed Amorim in the hope that we would be better than the absolute worst that ten hag offered ?

There's a huge grey area though, which the club knew about, and that is his system. The reports at the time said the club didn't want to move for him in the summer as they knew our squad didn't suit. So I'm sure the fact that only a few players look at home in the system will come as no surprise. and this goes some way to explaining results and performances. What is shocking is just how much we struggle in his system, West Ham have adopted to it far better than we have. I watched his Sporting side and this is nothing like what they were showing.

I don't know, I'm losing confidence in the whole thing myself but I feel like he's been set up for failure and I actually believe that if INEOS sack him then we're in bigger trouble than we thought.

 

[Posh Red]

Can you name one that improved under those circumstances without changing the manager?

If you have multiple players that aren’t good at passing the ball, changing the manager isn’t going to change that, no matter how much you try and convince yourself it will.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

Can anyone provide an example of a team that is as bad as United at passing the ball, who then improved in that aspect dramatically simply by changing the manager?

Everton?

 

[pocco]

Can you name one that improved under those circumstances without changing the manager?

Can you name me any that improved by upgrading playing staff? Yes, you probably can.

 

[Posh Red]

Everton?

Good point. Let’s bring Moyes back.

 

[hellhunter]

Can you name me any that improved by upgrading playing staff? Yes, you probably can.

We won't be making big moves, so this won't happen anyway

 

[hellhunter]

Good point. Let’s bring Moyes back.

A better manager in the PL than Amorim for all we know

 

[Posh Red]

I always regret posting in here after giving in to the temptation The relentless moaning and negativity some display is actually impressive and I don’t know how you manage it

 

[JohnnyKills]

If we're going to bring in a manager who plays such a unique formation, we have to give him time to implement it.

For this to work, we need to buy players to suit the system and make the reserves and Junior teams play this way too. You can't do all that and then sack the manager early.

 

[Gordon'sHill]

I always regret posting in here after giving in to the temptation The relentless moaning and negativity some display is actually impressive and I don’t know how you manage it

The main negativity I see is on the pitch, You asked the question about a manager who improved passing under a new manager, and someone said Moyes and Everton. So you retort bring back Moyes. Moyes should never have been anywhere near United but at the same time he is a proven PL manager and has literally transformed Everton almost over night. Which shows it can be done without another rebuild, which is what it seems every new manager needs at United. I think what we are actualyl seeing is getting rid of AShworth whose job was to create an overall structure for the club, exactly so we dont need a rebuild every time.

 

[hellhunter]

If we're going to bring in a manager who plays such a unique formation, we have to give him time to implement it.

For this to work, we need to buy players to suit the system and make the reserves and Junior teams play this way too. You can't do all that and then sack the manager early.

Well we haven't, our youth teams don't play his system

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

Using Pep as an example is fecking ludicrous l. He had Fernandinho, KdB, Silva, Aguero in his first line up. Wow I wonder why Pep was able to hit the ground running. Some of you are off your heads.

Even Klopp took over when they were 10th and finished a grand total of two places higher in 8th. It took major signings in the summer for them to jump to 4th the following season.

The person I was responding to was arguing that Guardiola needed 13 signings to play his way; you are arguing that he hit the ground running. The two of you are the ones who should be debating whether Guardiola was or wasn't terrible without signings, not me!

 

[JohnnyKills]

The worst thing is, this is what everyone wanted! I don't know one person that supports this club, that was happy with our situation or trajectory pre-Amorim and absolutely everyone was calling for a cultural reset, 'we're fragile mentally' etc. Well this is what you get when you do that. How anyone can expect to go through a reset but maintain stability is beyond me.

Totally agree.

The reason most managers have a honeymoon period is that they come in, bring the vibes and keep the same formation. Eventually the mood subsides, the manager gets sacked and the cycle begins again.

The route Amorim is taking is far trickier, but it's more likely to succeed long-term. I have no idea whether 3-4-3 will work, but 4-3-3 wasn't working either, right?

 

[Valencia Shin Crosses]

If most of the players will be shipped out ASAP then there's no point in teaching them to play the system as they won't play it.

Except some players WONT, and it’s better to play the new system now with low stakes for the ones that will stay (especially young players) as opposed to trying to learn every concept in a few weeks of summer training.

I don’t know, again I understand both sides of the argument I just tend to fall on the side of “this squad is really poor everywhere but defense, and attack is almost relegation level, so I’m not sure what you can do”.

 

[stepic]

We're going in circles, but the previous, also terribly failing coach, managed to get a minimum tune out of them and have them produce at least some numbers

Yes, a grand total of 8 goals by matchday 9, one of the worst totals in the leagues, with a massive 4 goals combined between Garnacho, Zirkzee and Hojlund. Such heights.

 

[Gavinb33]

The route Amorim is taking is far trickier, but it's more likely to succeed long-term. I have no idea whether 3-4-3 will work, but 4-3-3 wasn't working either, right?

You have the proof of this statement, why is it more likely what metric are using for this statement

 

[stepic]

The person I was responding to was arguing that Guardiola needed 13 signings to play his way; you are arguing that he hit the ground running. The two of you are the ones who should be debating whether Guardiola was or wasn't terrible without signings, not me!

you're conflating two different arguments.

Guardiola signing 13 players in 2 seasons was an example of him bringing in players that suited the way he wanted to play - to combat the nonsense point made by Insanity that 'we are the only club where a manager signs "their players" to improve the team'.

that doesn't mean that Guardiola did not inherit a vastly superior squad than ours, and hence didn't experience the same initial struggles as we are currently. i'm pretty sure if Amorim had KDB and Aguero in his squad he'd be having less struggles too - that wouldn't mean he still didn't need to bring in other players to improve the squad further and shape it in the way he wants to play.

i'm not sure what you're struggling with to be honest.

 

[The Mitcher]

Totally agree.

The reason most managers have a honeymoon period is that they come in, bring the vibes and keep the same formation. Eventually the mood subsides, the manager gets sacked and the cycle begins again.

The route Amorim is taking is far trickier, but it's more likely to succeed long-term. I have no idea whether 3-4-3 will work, but 4-3-3 wasn't working either, right?

You don't really know if it's more or less likely. Also, the issue with Ten Hag was more system than the formation. On paper it was 4-2-3-1, but in practice it was 4-1-4-1 with two tens because the other CM would push up and join the AM leaving a gaping hole in the middle. Amorim is both the system and the formation not being suitable.