Ruben Amorim - Manchester United Head Coach | Thread locked during matches

[Raoul]

Come on dude. It’s the Portuguese league and he’s coaching one of the big three. Mourinho seems like the odd one out from there that has been successful. Nuno is doing well at Forest, but I wouldn’t want him here.

Ajax under ETH scored 98 and 88 goals in his last two seasons. It didn’t work here.

Two points:

1. No one said we would score 96 in England, so that's fatuous argument.

2. We can't compare ETH's Ajax (which BTW came within a whisker of a CL final) with Amorim since he hasn't been given a proper chance yet. Next year is the year where the rubber meets the road.

 

[Raoul]

Honestly mate, I think you’re into some serious wishful thinking here.

Amorim has proven one thing, that his system IN LIGA PORTUGAL with the best side in the league, can score a hell of a lot of goals.
Stop pretending we don’t have examples like Villas Boas mate, and that everything is simply ”transferable”.

Didn’t ETH’s Ajax score a feck tonne and were pretty fecking ace in the CL too? Even after he had to rebuild them after the first exodus?

Its called getting behind the manager to make the appropriate changes this summer that everyone agrees are necessary to move us back up the table.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

Its called getting behind the manager to make the appropriate changes this summer that everyone agrees are necessary to move us back up the table.

We can get behind him without pretending he’s ”made us much more solid” or ”he’s just a top striker away from us being great”.

Maybe ETH was just a top striker away ?

Right now he’s been shit, and hasn’t actually improved us anywhere. Not at defending, and not at attacking.
We hired him to improve us, in every aspect he’s made us worse.

If he doesn’t redeem it by winning the EL than absolutely, we can all get behind him, and hope a feck tonne of new players will make everything suddenly better (as we do every Summer, especially in 24); but ultimately this form is fecking awful and we’ll be risking an even worse mistake than keeping ETH on last Summer.
All the signs are there of this going very badly.

But I don’t want him sacked, I like him, I want it to work, I’m even giving him the PL off for the rest of the season even if he loses them all, as long as it pays off in the EL.
We then have to buy a top CF regardless of the manager so we may as well let him have a chance with it.
That said though, every bit of logic tells me a top top manager that is capable of taking us back to the top would have shown some silver lining by now and improved us.

 

[acnumber9]

He's got 8 goals. Same as he got last season for Sociedad.

He's done well as a makeshift forward but is this the bar now? A manager at another club, a much better team, gets 8 goals from a midfielder and that somehow means Amorim isn't doing his job well?

He’s got 6 in 10 as a striker. Once again, it’s about showing how you don’t have to have a perfect set of conditions to do better than we are.

 

[Licha-Vidic]

But you've watched us play other systems and struggle to score goals.

We've been rubbish at creating and scoring for years now playing 4231 or 433.

The only difference really has been that mad 10 week spell from Rashford after the world cup and Hojlunds mini run last season.

Outside of that it's been prettyich the same whilst playing various systems.

So how are we still blaming systems.

For the last time everyone.
1. WE CAN HAVE POOR OWNERS.
2. WE CAN HAVE A RUN DOWN STADIUM.
3. WE CAN HAVE POOR MANAGEMENT TEAM
1. WE CAN HAVE POOR SQUAD. POOR PLAYERS.
2. WE CAN HAVE VERY LIMITED MANAGERS.
3. THE LIMITED MANAGER WILL HAVE A POOR PLAYING SYSTEM.
4. A POOR SYSTEM, IS HOW A POOR MANAGER SEES THE GAME.


All this things might be true at the same. Also higher % is we are poor in everything all at once. Because poor owners will make poor decisions which will trickle down until to the last point.

You believe we have poor ownership, poor run down stadium, poor squad and players but magically we have ELITE MANAGER?
Life doesn't operate like that.

 

[acnumber9]

It wouldn't matter where it was, the point is Amorim has demonstrated with devastating effectiveness that his system scores a hell of a lot of goals. So the problem clearly isn't Amorim, but the Ten Hag era players, many of whom don't have the appropriate profiles to play in this system. Add and subtract as necessary this summer and suddenly we're looking at a completely different set of results.

In one season. His team was outscored by Benfica and Porto in every other season he was there.

 

[Daydreamer]

You should have sacked Arteta then right after the first year or two?

Because compared to other managers at the time who'd has less time with their teams and spent less, he wasn't doing anywhere near as well.

Who's that, then?

Arteta won the FA Cup as Manager within six months of being appointed, beating City and Chelsea along the way. Also, though we finished 8th, that’s because we were bottom half when he was appointed. Had the league started when he was appointed that December, we would have finished 5th. Whereas, had the league started when Amorim was appointed last November, United would be 16th with only one place separating them from the relegation spots.

Absolutely nobody is saying Hojlund is the sole reason. That's a fictional argument. Nobody is saying let's just sign a striker next season and leave it at that.

I said he's not the sole reason. And then, if you kept reading, I said that he's not even the main reason. And there are plenty of people throwing out overly optimistic hypotheticals of the effect a new striker would have...

Yeah I was making this point to a friend the other day, I think a striker alone gets us around 6th

4 open play goals in 4 games from Hojlund are possible 4 game changing goals, 4 possible wins and 12 more points.

There are games like the Wolves one where if Hojlund fecking passes to Dorgu or scores his easy chance, we win easily.

Plus, there are many who feel that you can't judge Amorim until United spend big on a striker. Which poses the question that kicked this little discussion off...

Especially not when Arsenal can make a DM and effective forward but don't say that loudly

But it also poses the question, when are you allowed to start analysing Amorim's performance as a Manager?

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

In one season. His team was outscored by Benfica and Porto in every other season he was there.

It’s such a strange argument regardless as his predecessor also had a team that scored a feck tonne in a different league, but couldn’t transfer that to the Prem despite spending a feck tonne.

 

[stepic]

You're right in that we were playing bad under ETH's different formations but the question should be "are we playing worse under Amorim"? So far, I'd say yes

We 100% are not, particularly if you look at our xP last season under ETH, our position leading up to his sacking this year, the fact we have less attacking options generally and can’t rely on Hojlund purple patch this year, and most importantly, the fact we’re instilling a more difficult system for players to get used to, particularly given a lot of their physical and technical difficulties. Frankly we’re doing as expected if not better than I was expecting.

 

[Raoul]

In one season. His team was outscored by Benfica and Porto in every other season he was there.

The team he built are also leading the league in scoring this year as well.

The broader point being that teams that Amorim builds generally don't have goal scoring problems. That's why he needs to make changes this summer.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

But it also poses the question, when are you allowed to start analysing Amorim's performance as a Manager?

This is Manchester United, a club affected by Fergie-itis, a manager can never be analysed until he has kicked out every bad egg and had multiple transfer windows to bring in a smorgasbord of his favourite players.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

Frankly we’re doing as expected if not better than I was expecting.

Absolute tosh man

We are, without doubt, the only top club in World Football where our fans would accept a manager coming in after sacking a guy for such shit form it lead to just 1.32 ppg, and dropping that to a much shitter 1.05 ppg, losing 11 in 22 and claim it to be ”better than they expected”.

 

[Raoul]

Maybe ETH was just a top striker away ?

ETH had his chance and bought Hojlund, which sunk him at United. Players like Weghorst, Hojlund, and Zirkzee were never going to result in a lot of goals. Hopefully Amorim doesn't make the same mistake by buying some young developmental striker this summer.

 

[stevoc]

Well you can have quality players, but that style of play was even there when he rebuilt that initial Ajax team as well. It remained very constant. His work at Bayern reserves, Go Ahead Eagles and Utrecht were also more proof.

At United I think he was more pragmatic and playing to the strength of the players he had. Even before he signed, it was evident that Bruno and Rashford don't fit that Ajax way of playing at all. They were far more direct, good from the counter and that is exactly what he tried to do at United. Becoming a transition based team, which wasn't what he had done before at Ajax or other clubs at all.

His plan failed, and injuries didn't help him at all. Maybe if we got Frenkie or a similar type of player, he'd be willing to build the team from a control type of play, but with Casemiro (still a good signing imo) he went for a whole different type of play.

He deserved to be sacked, but I can also remember how he played without a left back for such a long time with Shaw and Malacia out. Also we looked miles better in buildup whenever Martinez was fit. That 2nd season was terribly injury-riddled, to a degree I have never seen and don't think I will see again. He was constantly in survival mode that 2nd season, just getting the players and set-up to grind out results. Poor tactics, but also poor signings and injuries cost him.

Fair points of course but to be fair he started this season with a pretty fit squad, plus the added signings of DeLigt and Mazraoui both solid players. And his football still didn't work and in my opinion it wouldn't have worked no matter the personnel.

 

[acnumber9]

The team he built are also leading the league in scoring this year as well.

The broader point being that teams that Amorim builds generally don't have goal scoring problems. That's why he needs to make changes this summer.

The improvement is Gyokeres though really isn’t it? Any team will score more goals with a top striker. Which means we could give Gyokeres to any manager and expect to see improvements?

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

ETH had his chance and bought Hojlund

Did he though?

 

[VP89]

ETH had his chance and bought Hojlund, which sunk him at United. Players like Weghorst, Hojlund, and Zirkzee were never going to result in a lot of goals. Hopefully Amorim doesn't make the same mistake by buying some young developmental striker this summer.

They offered Kolo Muani, Hojlund or Goncalo Ramos. Quite a shit selection that

 

[Marwood]

He’s got 6 in 10 as a striker. Once again, it’s about showing how you don’t have to have a perfect set of conditions to do better than we are.

Big gap between having a perfect set on conditions and what Amorim is working with. Let's find something in the middle and then judge?

For the last time everyone.
1. WE CAN HAVE POOR OWNERS.
2. WE CAN HAVE A RUN DOWN STADIUM.
3. WE CAN HAVE POOR MANAGEMENT TEAM
1. WE CAN HAVE POOR SQUAD. POOR PLAYERS.
2. WE CAN HAVE VERY LIMITED MANAGERS.
3. THE LIMITED MANAGER WILL HAVE A POOR PLAYING SYSTEM.
4. A POOR SYSTEM, IS HOW A POOR MANAGER SEES THE GAME.


All this things might be true at the same. Also higher % is we are poor in everything all at once. Because poor owners will make poor decisions which will trickle down until to the last point.

You believe we have poor ownership, poor run down stadium, poor squad and players but magically we have ELITE MANAGER?
Life doesn't operate like that.

So in amongst this sea of huge problems you're somehow perceptive enough to extrapolate that the manager whose been here a few months needs to go? It's not all that other gargantuan club wide shit storm stuff?

It's like this thing of blaming Amorim for the lack of goals. You've all watched us struggle for goals for years.

How have you concluded it's down to the guy whose only had a few month here? Zero logic.

Was he somehow causing the same problems last season and the season before that?

Last season:

Hojlund didn't score in 21 of his league appearances last season. That mini run he went on prevented a disaster of a season.

Antony 1 in 29 league appearances last year.

Rashford 7 in 33 league appearances.

What did you lot expect this season in terms of our forward play?

 

[JimiboyX]

Two points:

1. No one said we would score 96 in England, so that's fatuous argument.

2. We can't compare ETH's Ajax (which BTW came within a whisker of a CL final) with Amorim since he hasn't been given a proper chance yet. Next year is the year where the rubber meets the road.

Again, we do not have the money, or possibly the time, to keep giving everyone a "proper chance" any more.

If we were even knocking around in the same pack as Bournemouth/Brighton/Brentford/Fulham/Palace then I’d probably be agreeing. That on balance, it’s not good to keep replacing managers and we can just about afford the gamble on him (and it is still a massive gamble).

But we are actually on relegation form and in PSR terms, we are skint.

We don’t have the luxury of giving someone time in case they work out, especially someone who is going to need the whole squad re-shaped in their image. The circumstances have changed from a few years ago and the risk is much higher now.

 

[Raoul]

The improvement is Gyokeres though really isn’t it? Any team will score more goals with a top striker. Which means we could give Gyokeres to any manager and expect to see improvements?

Gyokeres has been a large part of it. He has benefited from buying the players required to create the current squad. Buying Trincao, Hjulmand, the rise of Quenda etc.

 

[acnumber9]

Big gap between having a perfect set on conditions and what Amorim is working with. Let's find something in the middle and then judge?



So in amongst this sea of huge problems you're somehow perceptive enough to extrapolate that the manager whose been here a few months needs to go? It's not all that other gargantuan club wide shit storm stuff?

It's like this thing of blaming Amorim for the lack of goals. You've all watched us struggle for goals for years.

How have you concluded it's down to the guy whose only had a few month here? Zero logic.

Was he somehow causing the same problems last season and the season before that?

Last season:

Hojlund didn't score in 21 of his league appearances last season. That mini run he went on prevented a disaster of a season.

Antony 1 in 29 league appearances last year.

Rashford 7 in 33 league appearances.

What did you lot expect this season in terms of our forward play?

And an even bigger gap between acceptable results and what Amorim is producing.

 

[stevoc]

And statistically the difference between our actual goals and our expected goals is "only" 7 goals. While there is no denying that a better striker would see us marginally better, the actual issue for this team is our chronic inability to create and prevent good goalscoring opportunities.

Interesting coincidence as Hojlund scored 10 league goals last season and 3 this year. But it's not just him of course, Garnacho has barely scored since November and outside of Bruno we don't really have another goal threat who'll consistently get us 10-15 goals a season with Rashford gone. I agree with your point though, creativity is a bigger problem than finsihing as Hojlund can go entire games and regularly does without having a decent chance laid on for him. Personally I also think in the current set-up playing defensive minded players as the wing-backs and two deep lying midfielders we don't seem to attack with enough numbers. A lot of our attacks seem to only involve 3-4 players getting forward.

I'm sceptical that a better striker shoots us 10+ positions up the table (which is where Ruben will need to finish next season). And I don't know if we'll even be able to afford/attract a World Class one without CL football.

 

[Raoul]

Again, we do not have the money, or possibly the time, to keep giving everyone a "proper chance" any more.

Unless you know exactly what our transfer budget is, you do not know this - none of us do. Ratcliffe has said we have a budget in place and can make it bigger by selling a few players.

 

[acnumber9]

Garnacho has barely scored since November

Did anything change in November?

 

[MF1138]

ETH had his chance and bought Hojlund, which sunk him at United. Players like Weghorst, Hojlund, and Zirkzee were never going to result in a lot of goals. Hopefully Amorim doesn't make the same mistake by buying some young developmental striker this summer.

He pretty much begged the club to buy Harry Kane he got an untested Hojlund instead. Weghorst he had no funds and just needed a warm body for a few months and he was about all we could get. He didn't want Zirkzee. Based on previous attempts by the club to secure a top striker I hope Amorim isn't as reliant on that having a successful outcome as you think it is.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

Interesting coincidence as Hojlund scored 10 league goals last season and 3 this year. But it's not just him of course, Garnacho has barely scored since November

interesting coincidence that something else happened around November time.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

Did anything change in November?

Damn it, beat me to it

 

[r0663664]

Alot of arguing in this post. Regardless Amorim or not Amorim, we need a striker. Whatever is the formation, Hoijund is not a the answer. Any decent who start as many games should have more goals, he should have an ability to score a few goals on his own without assist but we know that ain't happening.

 

[Raoul]

He pretty much begged the club to buy Harry Kane he got an untested Hojlund instead. Weghorst he had no funds and just needed a warm body for a few months and he was about all we could get. He didn't want Zirkzee. Based on previous attempts by the club to secure a top striker I hope Amorim isn't as reliant on that having a successful outcome as you think it is.

Kane would've been the best solution two years ago, but his £400kpw wages not so much.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

Kane would've been the best solution two years ago, but his £400kpw wages not so much.

To be fair, going on all reports he wasn’t interested in buying Højlund but wanted a much better and more experienced striker, which is just fecking logical really. Pretending HE bought Højlund and was happy with having an unproven youngster as his main striker isn’t helping the debate.

I hope Amorim doesn’t need 11 perfect player for this to work, cause I doubt he’s getting them.

 

[stevoc]

Did anything change in November?

He was left out for a good bit and then had to adapt to a different position when he came back in.

 

[Pexbo]

Honestly mate, I think you’re into some serious wishful thinking here.

Amorim has proven one thing, that his system IN LIGA PORTUGAL with the best side in the league, can score a hell of a lot of goals.
Stop pretending we don’t have examples like Villas Boas mate, and that everything is simply ”transferable”.

Didn’t ETH’s Ajax score a feck tonne and were pretty fecking ace in the CL too? Even after he had to rebuild them after the first exodus?

They were far from the best side in the league when he took over. They were perpetually 3rd and below and hadn’t won the title in 19 years.

 

[stepic]

Absolute tosh man

We are, without doubt, the only top club in World Football where our fans would accept a manager coming in after sacking a guy for such shit form it lead to just 1.32 ppg, and dropping that to a much shitter 1.05 ppg, losing 11 in 22 and claim it to be ”better than they expected”.

Context matters.

 

[acnumber9]

He was left out for a good bit and then had to adapt to a different position when he came back in.

Is that all? The metal contortion being done around here is a sight to behold.

 

[AjaxCunian]

Fair points of course but to be fair he started this season with a pretty fit squad, plaus the added signings of DeLigt and Mazraoui both solid players. And his football still didn't work and in my opinion it wouldn't have worked no matter the personnel.

I think the football this season was a lot better, and we were quite unlucky with some of the results. Shaw being out didn't help, really should have prioritised that. Playing without a left back for a year was terrible, huge mistakes were made.

I think we deserved more against Brighton, Crystal Palace and West Ham. However EL was very disappointing.

All still not good enough really.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

They were far from the best side in the league when he took over. They were perpetually 3rd and below and hadn’t won the title in 19 years.

Absolutely.

 

[stevoc]

interesting coincidence that something else happened around November time.

There's no doubt that Amorim's arrival and insistence on switching to a new formation mid-season had a negative effect on some players goal scoring rates.

Is that all? The metal contortion being done around here is a sight to behold.

I assure you mate I'm not engaging in mental gymnastics. It was Ruben who left him out and changed his position. So of course Amorim's arrival was a huge factor.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

He was left out for a good bit and then had to adapt to a different position when he came back in.

So he stopped scoring after that… hmmmm

But the manager and his system STILL isn’t even partially to blame? Which some would have you believe.

I’m with you in that full backs as wing backs and two DM means it’s just harder for our players, and I’m not convinced we’ll ever get the best out of Amad nor Garna with this.

Realistically we have the CB’s, one DM, Dalot (if generous), and Bruno, Amad, Garna, Mount.

That leaves us needing another go at a left wing back, a centre mid and a forward.

Do people really think 3 players turns this from 1.05 ppg to anything like 2.2 for Mourinho type form? I don’t.

I also think current Mourinho would have this lot miles further up the table if he’d taken over in November.

 

[Raoul]

Interesting coincidence as Hojlund scored 10 league goals last season and 3 this year. But it's not just him of course, Garnacho has barely scored since November and outside of Bruno we don't really have another goal threat who'll consistently get us 10-15 goals a season with Rashford gone. I agree with your point though, creativity is a bigger problem than finsihing as Hojlund can go entire games and regularly does without having a decent chance laid on for him. Personally I also think in the current set-up playing defensive minded players as the wing-backs and two deep lying midfielders we don't seem to attack with enough numbers. A lot of our attacks seem to only involve 3-4 players getting forward.

That's what happens when you sack an underperforming manager and hire a new one mid season; who you knew would bring a new system, formation, and tactics with him resulting in the entire team having to scramble to learn a new approach with minimal training and significant injuries.

I'm sceptical that a better striker shoots us 10+ positions up the table (which is where Ruben will need to finish next season). And I don't know if we'll even be able to afford/attract a World Class one without CL football.

We would definitely be close if not in the top 4 with a player like Gyokeres or Osimhen banging in goals this year. Forest are in 3rd and only have 15 more goals than us at present.

 

[JimiboyX]

Unless you know exactly what our transfer budget is, you do not know this - none of us do. Ratcliffe has said we have a budget in place and can make it bigger by selling a few players.

Of course we don’t, but based on what we do know I think it’s pretty safe to assume that we can’t just try to spend our way out of this (again). Those days are over. There are going to be some considerable restrictions in place. I think people are also vastly overstating how easy it is just to bring in “good” players and sort everything.

There is a very real chance of us finishing 17th this season. I feel like if even one of the bottom three was at the 30-point mark right now, the reality of this would be hitting home a lot more than it seems to be with people.

I just don’t think this is the time to be going all-in on the project of a young manager who has never managed outside of Portugal, as much as I like him.