Ruben Amorim - Manchester United Head Coach

[Red Comet]

Risky or stupid.

He has himself admitted multiple times that's he is not going to change and that's how he wants to play. I admire that and no issues with that; however, then you have walk the talk and be able to show at least a few glimpses of implementing the said system. Otherwise, you need to bite the bullet and adapt to what is available.

Taking risk isn't inherently good or bad. It is just taking an action or doing something that may result in a pay off (rewards) but may also be detrimental.

For example playing with 10 strikers is definitely risky and also very stupid.

He has himself admitted multiple times that's he is not going to change and that's how he wants to play. I admire that and no issues with that; however, then you have walk the talk and be able to show at least a few glimpses of implementing the said system.

Amorim himself has also said on multiple occasions that his plans means taking the pain now for long term gains, and this is what fans who are still supportive of Amorim bought into. Much as the results are pathetic, there are genuinely games where we had more higher quality chances which we failed to score in, and that can be reflected by our goals to xG; while we also had higher goals conceded to xGA. This can be indicative that we lack good goal scorers, while we concede more goals than we should, also indicative of either poor luck or poor goalkeeping - I let you decide.

Otherwise, you need to bite the bullet and adapt to what is available.

So, do you want Amorim to take risk or not? In your previous posts you mentioned that you wanted Amorim to take risks, but how does one take risk if he just adapt to what is available? ETH was brought in to implement that Ajax football, found it difficult and quickly revert to Ole ball saying "Man Utd can't play the Ajax way" and got plenty of stick for it. How about this - can you clearly define what "risk-taking" looks like to you?

In the end the fans are sick and tired us going in circles after the last few managerial failures; I sure as hell still remember the shite football on display since last season and I'm sure many of us still do as well. Many of us here are aligned with Ralf Ragnick's assessment that "Man Utd needed an open heart surgery", and that is something that cannot be achieved in a few weeks and certainly not attainable if we stick to a system our players are familiar with, but has failed repeatedly for a few managers in a row.

And as I mentioned in my previous post, Amorim's supporters will quickly turn on him if we have a good summer, but our play is still shite after a full pre-season.

 

[RonB]

Regarding point 2. I don't think there was a concrete plan for Amorim to move in the summer. I'm sure clubs were looking at him but many (Liverpool included) probably thought it was 2 or 3 years too soon.

He would have been on our radar and was probably the only available candidate come October.

I'd also say (even pre cup final) the board were split on sacking Ten Hag. The report that came out on the Friday before (I think) was a load of nonsense. Had Ten Hag gone in the summer, we'd have probably gone for someone like Thomas Franks.

I’m sympathetic to that. Except…
Except Ineos keep setting themselves up (and setting the club up) to look ridiculous when they keep bragging about “best in class”, etc. I have opinions about why Ineos take this stance, but that’s a different conversation.
If you claim Dan Ashworth is the best appointment in the world, and then get rid of him after five months, you look silly.
If you bring in Amorim and say he’s the best manager in the world, you can’t claim he’s not ready yet, or he needs to do a major overhaul, without looking silly in various ways.
Was Amorim appointed because he was the only available candidate? Then he ain’t the best in class. Was Amorim seen as not ready in the summer? Then nothing had fundamentally changed come November except the clubs were desperate, and he ain’t the best in class. And in it goes.
Ineos should just learn to be adults. Drop the “best in class” nonsense. Try “He’s the right man for us, and we’re going to back him.”

 

[romufc]

You’re welcome to offer an alternative scenario.
However…
Ineos had five months between agreeing to buy a chunk of the club and the end of the season - that’s long enough to decide if they wanted to keep ETH, and it’s long enough to identify who was the “best in class” if they wanted a change.
The club gained little or nothing by appointing Amorim mid-season, and at the very least they introduced a number of (largely unnecessary) complications by failing to simply install him in the summer.
There’s no reason to think Amorim wouldn’t have wanted to come in May, but changed his mind when approached mid-season.
And Ineos have shown that they can make much-lauded long-plotted appointments of “best in class” non-playing staff, only to stuff it up.
So I’m inclined to apply Occam’s razor.
Feel free to think that Amorim is the best in class. Feel free to avoid such silly phrases but nonetheless think he’s doing a good job and should continue to be backed. You can think either of these things but still see that Ineos made a right pig’s ear of his appointment.

You do realise after buying the club... they wanted to make changes to the structure... its so naive to think that oh they bought the club so now everything should be sorted quickly. Once you take over, you carry out a full review of the club, identify people you want to work with.

You dont decide to change a manager and get a new one in when you dont have your DoF and CEO in place... thats just silly. SJR has come out and said, in hindsight, it was a mistake keeping Ten Hag and acknowledges mistakes made in the first year.

Just because they got rid of Ashworth... doesn't mean they will stuff up every hire. Its actually a positive that instead of saving face... they decided to get rid because its not working... do you think even the best companies get all their recruitment right?

On your previous posts about Amorim in the summer, I dont know how many times it must be spelt out that he did not want to leave in the summer and United didn't have their football people in charge to make such a decision.

The cost for Ten Hag sacking in the summer was reported to be 10-15m which is what they paid anyway... so where is this "it would be cheaper" narrative coming from?

Its funny your only conclusion from a year in charge is... INEOS are not good or Amorim isn't good, why dont you wait till he has had some time before writing of a manager?

 

[Gordon'sHill]

You do realise after buying the club... they wanted to make changes to the structure... its so naive to think that oh they bought the club so now everything should be sorted quickly. Once you take over, you carry out a full review of the club, identify people you want to work with.

You dont decide to change a manager and get a new one in when you dont have your DoF and CEO in place... thats just silly. SJR has come out and said, in hindsight, it was a mistake keeping Ten Hag and acknowledges mistakes made in the first year.

Just because they got rid of Ashworth... doesn't mean they will stuff up every hire. Its actually a positive that instead of saving face... they decided to get rid because its not working... do you think even the best companies get all their recruitment right?

On your previous posts about Amorim in the summer, I dont know how many times it must be spelt out that he did not want to leave in the summer and United didn't have their football people in charge to make such a decision.

The cost for Ten Hag sacking in the summer was reported to be 10-15m which is what they paid anyway... so where is this "it would be cheaper" narrative coming from?

Its funny your only conclusion from a year in charge is... INEOS are not good or Amorim isn't good, why dont you wait till he has had some time before writing of a manager?

I have little faith in INEOS. They may be a bit better than Glazers but that bar is super low. Self made men like Radcliffe are control freaks and micro manage, why was he personally interviewing managers in the summer? Ashworth was on gardening leave but they can talk, there are sufficient football people around to know that ETH had utterly failed. Ashworth was key to building a football structure and ensuring continuity, I suspect he disagreed with Radcliffe which means you are toast. Berrado better at managing up, but why was he involved in choosing Amorim? A manger who needs a new squad with a fixed style of play, exactly the opposite approach Radcliffe previously said the club would take. Our summer recruitment really no better than Murtough. Ugarte is average, De Light OK but a cast off from other teams and not stand out, and Zirkzee just bizarre. Yoro promising but a lot of money for promise. So we dont know how this all pans out but so far signs are poor. Radcliffe even noted recently that Nice are doing better since they stepped back due to the United ownership, says it all really.

 

[romufc]

I have little faith in INEOS. They may be a bit better than Glazers but that bar is super low. Self made men like Radcliffe are control freaks and micro manage, why was he personally interviewing managers in the summer? Ashworth was on gardening leave but they can talk, there are sufficient football people around to know that ETH had utterly failed. Ashworth was key to building a football structure and ensuring continuity, I suspect he disagreed with Radcliffe which means you are toast. Berrado better at managing up, but why was he involved in choosing Amorim? A manger who needs a new squad with a fixed style of play, exactly the opposite approach Radcliffe previously said the club would take. Our summer recruitment really no better than Murtough. Ugarte is average, De Light OK but a cast off from other teams and not stand out, and Zirkzee just bizarre. Yoro promising but a lot of money for promise. So we dont know how this all pans out but so far signs are poor. Radcliffe even noted recently that Nice are doing better since they stepped back due to the United ownership, says it all really.

Thats fine, no one is saying to have full faith until they give you reason to... However; Ratcliffe was taking interviews because Berrada and Ashworth didn't start work till mid July? When pre season had started maybe?

How am I toast when SJR has come out saying Ashworth didn't fit? Unless you can prove he didn't say that.. I am toast yeah.

No manager gets a full new squad and no one has said he needs 20 new players, so I dont know where you are getting this from?

Yoro was £50m... let me explain to you the difference to Murtough, who you think is the same... paid £72m for Hojlund and £90m for Antony... so dont act as it its the same, when it clearly isn't. What about Mazroui?

 

[justsomebloke]

I'm conscious here of witnessing something I don't understand. It seems obvious that there's a clear approach, on and off the pitch. We're sticking with the same formation and system regardless of circumstances, and comments are always ruthlessly honest - sometimes even relentlessly negative, even when we've had good games and won. Presumably the thinking is that this will reap benefits in the longer term, because it certainly isn't reaping any benefits in the present. It's hard not to think that a lack of confidence in a squad so heavy with young players is a significant factor in how badly we're playing, and that obviously isn't helped by that relentless and unsparing negativity. And presumably Amorim knows this, but is doing it anyway because he thinks that ultimately it will help. So for now, it's a question of blind faith really. But that's not going to last forever, and it shouldn't.

 

[stepic]

Ok so questioning a manager who has Manchester United finishing 15th is impatient, that's where we are.

Yes, you got it. Congrats

 

[Olecurls99]

Do you think Amad, Garnacho, Bruno, Mainoo, Casemiro, Maguire, Dalot, Ugarte are 15th place quality?

OK let's unpack this. Are the above top players?

Amad is definitely a top attacker and Ruben has done a blatantly obvious but good job in putting him in the team and moving Antony out. He proceeded to be one of the most prolific attackers in the league until he got injured which has definitely affected us this season. Ruben gets a huge thumbs up for Amad. Yes but he's been injured.

Garnacho has been a bottom half attacker for most of the season, very ineffective and poor in the final 3rd. He's been improving lately but he's still not a top player yet. No

Bruno has had his best season and is obviously a top player this year. Surely Ruben gets some credit for his turnaround. Yes and Ruben deserves praise for this.

Mainoo has had a 2nd season regression and in his current guise is definitely not a top player. Injuries haven't helped. No

Casemiro can't run so is definitely not a top player anymore but again Ruben has improved his performance levels recently. No

Maguire is a very good defender for a defensive team but is not a top team defender given his slowness. No

Unfortunately because of injuries Dalot has had to play out of position for most of the season. Ruben solved this issue by signing Dorgu but we have really been hamstrung by not having him in his correct place all season. Yes but not as a left back.

Ugarte has been good since arriving and has filled a big hole but I wouldn't be confident in saying he's a top PL midfielder yet. Maybe

 

[silvercre]

Thats fine, no one is saying to have full faith until they give you reason to... However; Ratcliffe was taking interviews because Berrada and Ashworth didn't start work till mid July? When pre season had started maybe?

How am I toast when SJR has come out saying Ashworth didn't fit? Unless you can prove he didn't say that.. I am toast yeah.

No manager gets a full new squad and no one has said he needs 20 new players, so I dont know where you are getting this from?

Yoro was £50m... let me explain to you the difference to Murtough, who you think is the same... paid £72m for Hojlund and £90m for Antony... so dont act as it its the same, when it clearly isn't. What about Mazroui?

So your point is that Dan Ashworth can be the best in class but still incompatible with Man Utd?

 

[swooshboy]

You guys are getting far too hung up on the formation discussion. You're also getting too hung up on the need for 'improvement' from Amorim. Obviously yes, he needs to improve us, in that improvement is the path to success. But if you're argument is that he should shift to a back 4 so we can see some improvement, then you're missing the point of what the leadership are doing.

He shifts to a back 4, and maybe climbs a couple places. Great. Are you satisfied? No, we're supposed to be going for the league. Amorim has not been tasked with taking this team from 14th to 7th. He has been tasked with building a new team that can win the league.

Ineos come in and they want to take United to 'where it should be', so they decide they need a best in class football operation, the likes of the best teams in the world. Best in class looks like building a football operation that supports a good coach with quality players that enables his system. So they pick a coach that has shown all the qualities they require - proven winner, exciting football, youth development and so on. So they go to him and they ask if he can do what he did over there, here. And they know that building such a team will take time, especially with so much work to be done in building a top level squad, such tight financial restrictions, and such a negative amount of press existing around the club. So they won't fire him this summer. He will get time to do the job he was brought it to do, which is what he has shown he can do elsewhere - a back 5 team, full of youth, that forces transitions and attacks the space.

Here's what they didn't ask him to do. They didn't ask him to work with what he has to ensure we stay in the premier league. He's not Moyes and we're not Everton. He's not Pereira and we're not Wolves. He's not been asked to improve the squad he has, keep their heads above water and if you make the conference league that's the best you could hope for. He is here to win the league. And that requires a plan, it requires time, it requires patience.

Disagree with the plan if you wish, but at least try and understand it. The summer will be really exciting, new players, new youth, new energy, all following an actual plan executed with a degree of competency we haven't seen since Fergie left. Try and enjoy it.

Completely agree with this – great post.

The thing that bugs me on here is when you say a manager isn't good enough= you're not a good fan.

That's the usual sentiment in these threads. For example, if that's the case, anyone who thought Ten Hag should have stayed after the FA Cup final was a good fan. But they were wrong.

I like Ruben as a person, comes across really well in interviews. But I don't care about interviews. I care about results and performances. And I don't see any improvement, I've seen enough to know he's not taking us forward.

Too defensive, not enough creativity, not enough goals. Yes he doesn't have great players but they're better than what we've shown. I genuinely hope I'm wrong but I don't see it with him.

I don't think it's the fact people question a manager that causes others to criticise them as fans.

I think it's the lack of patience.

It's great you care about results and performances – but both have been pretty shit for a while now. The thinking behind bringing in a new manager with a new vision is to address this and give the team more of an identity and style of play that can be developed. We have been lacking this for years. We have also had obvious issues within our squad – and this is something that Amorim is clearly addressing. And maikng changes that previous managers have not had the courage to do.

I think our performances have improved compared to what we have seen over the past few years. We certainly have an issue scoring goals, but are doing a better job of creating opportunities. We still have some gaps in our squad, but I am excited to see whowe bring in. We have some really exciting young players, and are beginning to see more and more players finding their form under Amorim. The players seem to respond to him and the team fights for him. These are encouraging signs.

As for you've seen enough to know he's not taking us forward – how can you not give him a transfer window to try and create the team he wants? He has been explicitly clear that it will not be a smooth process. I assume he has faith because he has done this before at Sporting. Their fans sai then that it took time but once his system and ideas established themselves and the players adapted to them (and the right players were either bought or brought in from the youth setup), then things clicked and the team enjoyed remarkable success.

I am just surprised that it appeared. that most fans seemed to agree big changes were needed at our club, but now some are getting cold feet and aren't prepared to go through the change that is needed. Change is not a moment in time, it is a journey and he deserves to be given the time to implement what he was hired to do. That is not to say he should escape criticism, and I agree there needs to be improvement next season. But for fans to basically say he should be sacked now is ridiculous.

 

[Gordon'sHill]

Thats fine, no one is saying to have full faith until they give you reason to... However; Ratcliffe was taking interviews because Berrada and Ashworth didn't start work till mid July? When pre season had started maybe?

How am I toast when SJR has come out saying Ashworth didn't fit? Unless you can prove he didn't say that.. I am toast yeah.

No manager gets a full new squad and no one has said he needs 20 new players, so I dont know where you are getting this from?

Yoro was £50m... let me explain to you the difference to Murtough, who you think is the same... paid £72m for Hojlund and £90m for Antony... so dont act as it its the same, when it clearly isn't. What about Mazroui?

I think we are getting lost in details here. So there is noone else who could interview managers at MUFC apart from the INEOS owner who knows no more about football than you or I, really? I meant to say Ashworth was toast, not you. As for signings, OK not as bad as Murtough (which is tough to be fair) but hardly great. So maybe Amorim doesnt need a full new squad but a lot of new players, on that I am sure we can agree. At the end of the day, you seem to want to see positives, I am not seeing many. But these are just opinions.

 

[romufc]

I think we are getting lost in details here. So there is noone else who could interview managers at MUFC apart from the INEOS owner who knows no more about football than you or I, really? I meant to say Ashworth was toast, not you. As for signings, OK not as bad as Murtough (which is tough to be fair) but hardly great. So maybe Amorim doesnt need a full new squad but a lot of new players, on that I am sure we can agree. At the end of the day, you seem to want to see positives, I am not seeing many. But these are just opinions.

Obviously, like in most things.. trust needs to be earnt and thats what INEOS and Amorim need to do...

I do have faith in them though, seing how well they sold, seing how they have assembled a backroom team. Not just CEO, DoF, but data analysts, medical team, etc...

We actually didn't have anyone to interview, which is why Ten Hag was kept on... like you say... it doesnt make sense for SJR to make those decisions about the manager, so he kept the manager until the right people got into the job.

I am slighlty deluded when it comes to Manutd managers where, I think they can be good. I agree that there are not many positives but I am looking at this as the first time in years we have decided we will stick to a system and the players have to fall in line rather than counter attack football.

I cannot argue against you about the positives... in our play there are not many.

 

[Wrecking ralf]

You ever watched 8 Mile?

“I am white, I am a fecking bum,
I do live in a trailer with my mom…”

Is that sort of approach. Take away their headlines/punchlines and leave them with nothing. He’s showing he’s self aware and knows how bad it is. This isn’t the finished article, but he knows this himself and therefore he can do something about it.

FECK THE FREE WORLD!

 

[romufc]

So your point is that Dan Ashworth can be the best in class but still incompatible with Man Utd?

Yes. Its not hard to believe that you can be very good at your job but dont get along with the bosses, unless you think that isn't possible.

 

[IncyWincySpider]

The fact that he is self aware is one of my favorite things about him. Genuine acceptance that things have not been good. Our previous managers have arrogantly refused to acknowledge this and it always irked me. We can all see it's not been good enough. Hearing your manager try to pretend that there are no issues is annoying. I am happy that he is acknowledging it in a public forum.

Me too. He could be doing an Arteta and saying that if he transferred the points he won at Sporting over to the premier league he'd be champion already, but he isn't saying silly things like that because he isn't made of Lego.

 

[GaryLifo]

Those closest to wanting Amorim out at the end of the season keep trying to claim those of us who want him given longer are also saying

1. The entire squad is shit
2. We are happy with the league position
3. 7 new players are needed
4. These must be highly specialised players who can only play in 343 and it's variations.
5. Amorim must not be sacked even if we're 10th-15th again at Xmas next season

I'm very much Amorim in, but my take on the above is

1. We have many very good players who I think can be part of a successful united squad under Amorim. Yoro, De Ligt, Mazraoui, Amad, Ugarte, Bruno, Garnacho. Plus some who it's too soon to say about such as Heaven, Dorgu, Zirkzee.

2. Nobody is happy with the league position or the results. I have been though, encouraged by a lot of what I'm seeing in the structure and build up play. So I think we are in a slightly false league position, e.g. deserve to be a few places higher, which would still be crap but not this crap.

3. 2-3 high quality players as in 2 forwards and one midfielder would, in my view, get us back up into top 4/5 contention next season. This is because I'm expecting many of the current squad to be more consistent next season after a solid pre- season with this manager.

4. This is just daft. Very few footballers do not have at least some flexibility in terms of the formations and systems they can play. We're most strongly linked with Cunha, Delap and Ederson, none of whom would fit the highly niche description.

5. Can only speak for myself, but have also seen plenty other folk who want him given longer say this too... but if we're 10th-15th at Christmas next season after he's had 2-3 good signings and a full summer with the players, I'll have no issue with him being sacked.

Sorry for the long post, but just fed up with this going round and round based upon straw-man stuff, which both sides have been guilty of in this thread to be fair.

 

[honirelandboy]

Sancho, Anthony and Rashford are much better than what we have now but there absolute muppets if I can say that who are never going to win you a league title and need to be removed from the club.That’s the first part of the clear out and Amorims job now is to rebuild the attack this summer in the transfer window. I’m not sure how people wouldn’t realise with three attackers gone we would struggle and basically relying on kids. Those three players are better than what we have now.
This summer will be an interesting one and who we will replace them with, I think we all know we need an established CM, CF, AM, WB this summer around the 24 to 26 age to have any hope of competing next season. We have plenty of young players at the moment and need some established players in the squad.
Did I expect Amorim to do better this season, yes! But I’m all for giving him a transfer window and getting the Rot out of the club and getting the players he wants in. This is a long term project, not a short one.

 

[Havak]

It's a really tough situation. I want to give Amorim time, but when he can't get enough of a tune out of these players - many of which will still be here next season and perhaps beyond - it raises alarm bells surely?

Let's just say next season, we still have Onana, Maguire, Shaw, Dalot, Dorgu, Mazraoui, De Ligt, Martinez, Yoro, Casemiro, Ugarte, Mainoo, Bruno, Mount, Garnacho, Amad, Hojlund, and Zirkzee as integral parts of the squad. Along with maybe Heaven, Collyer, and a couple other more recent youth players. Even with 4-5 new signings, he's going to have to coach these players to play his way. Is a pre-season and the start of next season, with a few fresh faces, going to be enough to change things drastically from what we're seeing now? Maybe it is, but I find it hard to buy that. I know Amorim is tasked with a bigger plan of developing a team that can eventually compete with the best 3-4 teams in the country. But can it really be justified that we finish in the bottom 25% of the table this season and then maybe climb to 10th next season if we don't have most of the players he wants? If that's what the club is accepting then I'm not sure I like it. And what if it actually doesn't get much better than that? It feels like just as much of a risk, if not more of a risk, to put our eggs in this basket than to go another way.

As much as I like Amorim, I'm struggling to see enough that tells me he actually is 'the guy'. I liked Ten Hag, but it was clear his way of playing wasn't going to generate long-term improvement/success. If anything, we've gotten worse so it's hard to see this way of playing being the best long-term option either. I really want to believe it is by the way and I'm sure Amorim will get next season too. But what if we are in a relegation battle from the off? He won't get the luxury of telling us all we need to suffer next season... That much is guaranteed.

Tl;dr basically just rambling about my fears. More hope than expectation in Amorim at the moment.

 

[davidmichael]

No idea. If we end the season with a Europa title then is it the worse team?

Amorim very clearly said since he arrived in the PL and as far as the PL is concerned then he’s definitely right regardless of Europa as Europa is a separate thing to the PL, based on domestic competition we ARE the worst team since he arrived.

Can he turn it around ? If he wins Europa then he’ll get until at least Christmas/New Year to at least try and he’ll have a full pre season and money for his own signings to fit his own personal system so they’ll be no excuses at all if this continues.

 

[silvercre]

Yes. Its not hard to believe that you can be very good at your job but dont get along with the bosses, unless you think that isn't possible.

I actually agree with you. Found it funny how people made such a fuss about Ashworth, and they labeled based on that everyone left as incompetent.

 

[NLunited]

The fact that he is self aware is one of my favorite things about him. Genuine acceptance that things have not been good. Our previous managers have arrogantly refused to acknowledge this and it always irked me. We can all see it's not been good enough. Hearing your manager try to pretend that there are no issues is annoying. I am happy that he is acknowledging it in a public forum.

And on the other hand EtH was straight up deluded. That press conference after 0-3 against Liverpool. Most probably he inflicted some mental damage to players, that they are still trying to recover from.

What is this fantasy? I never thought ETH made things up or was dishonest. Worst he did was protect his players, and always said we needed to improve and ‚good is not good enough‘.

You accept 17th in the form table because Amorim talks a good game? I appreciate his honesty but want to see results and improvements. His league performance is so bad there is no leeway for excuses.

 

[GaryLifo]

It's a really tough situation. I want to give Amorim time, but when he can't get enough of a tune out of these players - many of which will still be here next season and perhaps beyond - it raises alarm bells surely?

Let's just say next season, we still have Onana, Maguire, Shaw, Dalot, Dorgu, Mazraoui, De Ligt, Martinez, Yoro, Casemiro, Ugarte, Mainoo, Bruno, Mount, Garnacho, Amad, Hojlund, and Zirkzee as integral parts of the squad. Along with maybe Heaven, Collyer, and a couple other more recent youth players. Even with 4-5 new signings, he's going to have to coach these players to play his way. Is a pre-season and the start of next season, with a few fresh faces, going to be enough to change things drastically from what we're seeing now? Maybe it is, but I find it hard to buy that. I know Amorim is tasked with a bigger plan of developing a team that can eventually compete with the best 3-4 teams in the country. But can it really be justified that we finish in the bottom 25% of the table this season and then maybe climb to 10th next season if we don't have most of the players he wants? If that's what the club is accepting then I'm not sure I like it. And what if it actually doesn't get much better than that? It feels like just as much of a risk, if not more of a risk, to put our eggs in this basket than to go another way.

As much as I like Amorim, I'm struggling to see enough that tells me he actually is 'the guy'. I liked Ten Hag, but it was clear his way of playing wasn't going to generate long-term improvement/success. If anything, we've gotten worse so it's hard to see this way of playing being the best long-term option either. I really want to believe it is by the way and I'm sure Amorim will get next season too. But what if we are in a relegation battle from the off? He won't get the luxury of telling us all we need to suffer next season... That much is guaranteed.

Tl;dr basically just rambling about my fears. More hope than expectation in Amorim at the moment.

All this is completely fair and understandable. Heck, I'm far from certain the pre-season and a few signings will be as transformative as it needs to be, but I do stand by the view that many recent performances have been underpinned by underlying stats which you would expect to see from the side that won the game. Obviously, that can be dismissed with 'but we didn't win the game' and I understand that perspective too even if I don't agree with it within the current season's context. I guess I am gambling on the results catching up with the metrics (in the same way that the data folk at the scousers still wanted Klopp despite his 'poor' Dortmund season, as the underlying metrics showed a team that should have won far more games than they actually did that season).

 

[Crashoutcassius]

I’m sympathetic to that. Except…
Except Ineos keep setting themselves up (and setting the club up) to look ridiculous when they keep bragging about “best in class”, etc. I have opinions about why Ineos take this stance, but that’s a different conversation.
If you claim Dan Ashworth is the best appointment in the world, and then get rid of him after five months, you look silly.
If you bring in Amorim and say he’s the best manager in the world, you can’t claim he’s not ready yet, or he needs to do a major overhaul, without looking silly in various ways.
Was Amorim appointed because he was the only available candidate? Then he ain’t the best in class. Was Amorim seen as not ready in the summer? Then nothing had fundamentally changed come November except the clubs were desperate, and he ain’t the best in class. And in it goes.
Ineos should just learn to be adults. Drop the “best in class” nonsense. Try “He’s the right man for us, and we’re going to back him.”

I don't mind it. I think it can be true that ashworth was best in class and turned out to not be a fit. If they don't replace him then it is crazy that they have just given up already on having a best in class director of football.

I believe they thought Amorim was best in class, but nobody can know that for sure. The evidence so far is that Amorim isn't at the level he needs to be, and he'll probably be turned mid season next season if that evidence continues to rack up. I don't think anything about the appointment so far says that they don't want a top manager. The fans are making all kinds of excuses for the manager but I don't think that will be how ineos think, they will understand that a top ten manager in the world probably wouldn't be getting the results Amorim is getting with the players that he has.

 

[That_Bloke]

It wasnt, watching ETH's kamikaze football, cost me about 4 TV's, now that's not saying I enjoy watching our 3 cb's scared to pass the ball forward every game, but feel alot of goals we concede are from individual errors, rather than a wide open midfield

Amorim's system invites enormous pressure due to the slow build-up from the back, and because of the speed and intensity of the PL, the team is more than often pinned in its own half for very long periods of time.

So at some point, one player will make a mistake and being that close to their own box, it has good chances of leading to a goal. It's inevitable and I find it unfair to pin that on the players (not that I think they're world beaters, mind)

I personally doubt that it will be successful in the PL, unless you have a very, very specific set of rare players, not only experienced in their respective position, capable on the ball and press resistant, but also physically up to it.

 

[AngeloHenriquez]

It's a really tough situation. I want to give Amorim time, but when he can't get enough of a tune out of these players - many of which will still be here next season and perhaps beyond - it raises alarm bells surely?

Let's just say next season, we still have Onana, Maguire, Shaw, Dalot, Dorgu, Mazraoui, De Ligt, Martinez, Yoro, Casemiro, Ugarte, Mainoo, Bruno, Mount, Garnacho, Amad, Hojlund, and Zirkzee as integral parts of the squad. Along with maybe Heaven, Collyer, and a couple other more recent youth players. Even with 4-5 new signings, he's going to have to coach these players to play his way. Is a pre-season and the start of next season, with a few fresh faces, going to be enough to change things drastically from what we're seeing now? Maybe it is, but I find it hard to buy that. I know Amorim is tasked with a bigger plan of developing a team that can eventually compete with the best 3-4 teams in the country. But can it really be justified that we finish in the bottom 25% of the table this season and then maybe climb to 10th next season if we don't have most of the players he wants? If that's what the club is accepting then I'm not sure I like it. And what if it actually doesn't get much better than that? It feels like just as much of a risk, if not more of a risk, to put our eggs in this basket than to go another way.

As much as I like Amorim, I'm struggling to see enough that tells me he actually is 'the guy'. I liked Ten Hag, but it was clear his way of playing wasn't going to generate long-term improvement/success. If anything, we've gotten worse so it's hard to see this way of playing being the best long-term option either. I really want to believe it is by the way and I'm sure Amorim will get next season too. But what if we are in a relegation battle from the off? He won't get the luxury of telling us all we need to suffer next season... That much is guaranteed.

Tl;dr basically just rambling about my fears. More hope than expectation in Amorim at the moment.

I'm not ready to give up on Amorim (Nor do I suggest you are). I worry Amorim isn't the guy as we aren't playing his style of football (Players haven't got it yet), either he needs more time or he can't implement his style (Amorim fault).

From what I have seen he has previous of being able to implement this style but the players haven't shown they can play anything other than counter attack so it's got to be the players surely?

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

From what I have seen he has previous of being able to implement this style but the players haven't shown they can play anything other than counter attack so it's got to be the players surely?

Many of the players in United's squad have played in teams that weren't counter attacking. Ugarte, Mazraoui, De Ligt, Martinez, Hojlund, ... Casemiro even. That's 6 of the 11 most used players this season.

 

[AngeloHenriquez]

Many of the players in United's squad have played in teams that weren't counter attacking.

Other than the Bayern Munich lads, none have done it regularly at the top level that I can think of, do you believe this is an issue Amorim (As of yet) has been unable to solve then rather than the players being unable to execute?

 

[Shark]

I'm not ready to give up on Amorim (Nor do I suggest you are). I worry Amorim isn't the guy as we aren't playing his style of football (Players haven't got it yet), either he needs more time or he can't implement his style (Amorim fault).

From what I have seen he has previous of being able to implement this style but the players haven't shown they can play anything other than counter attack so it's got to be the players surely?

Can't think of a single United manager who was able to successfully implement a style of football at this club post-SAF aside from LVG. Pretty damning.

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

Other than the Bayern Munich lads, none have done it regularly at the top level that I can think of, do you believe this is an issue Amorim (As of yet) has been unable to solve then rather than the players being unable to execute?

Probably a bit of both.

 

[Zlatans Knee]

Amorim's system invites enormous pressure due to the slow build-up from the back, and because of the speed intensity of the PL, the team is more than often pinned in its own half for very long periods of time.

So at some point, one player will inevitably make a mistake and being that close to their own box, it has good chances of leading to a goal. It's inevitable and I find it unfair to pin that on the players (not that I think they're world beaters, mind)

I personally doubt that it will be successful in the PL, unless you have a very, very specific set of rare players, not only experienced in their respective position, capable on the ball and press resistant, but also physically up to it.

I think the "unless" part of what you wrote here is exactly what Amorim wants to achieve here.

 

[AngeloHenriquez]

Can't think of a single United manager who was able to successfully implement a style of football at this club post-SAF aside from LVG. Pretty damning.

Probably a bit of both.

Shark's comment above is what sways me as I believe like you it's probably a bit of both but the fact that no manager has implemented a style it suggests it's something else, whether that's the players or something behind the scenes I am not sure but I don't believe changing the manager does anything.

I personally believe it's an allowance of standards to drop, a focus more on money and social media than football and working hard, sub standard environments which are responsible for getting that extra few % at times.

 

[Havak]

All this is completely fair and understandable. Heck, I'm far from certain the pre-season and a few signings will be as transformative as it needs to be, but I do stand by the view that many recent performances have been underpinned by underlying stats which you would expect to see from the side that won the game. Obviously, that can be dismissed with 'but we didn't win the game' and I understand that perspective too even if I don't agree with it within the current season's context. I guess I am gambling on the results catching up with the metrics (in the same way that the data folk at the scousers still wanted Klopp despite his 'poor' Dortmund season, as the underlying metrics showed a team that should have won far more games than they actually did that season).

I'm not ready to give up on Amorim (Nor do I suggest you are). I worry Amorim isn't the guy as we aren't playing his style of football (Players haven't got it yet), either he needs more time or he can't implement his style (Amorim fault).

From what I have seen he has previous of being able to implement this style but the players haven't shown they can play anything other than counter attack so it's got to be the players surely?

Not that this in any way makes me 'better' than any other fan in case that accusation is thrown, but I do think I am more patient than most. I've bought into the whole 'give a manager time', but there also needs to be some level of balance. Some hugely successful clubs over the recent decades like Bayern, Real, Chelsea etc have been the opposite of us by sacking managers who aren't performing, and maintained success whilst doing so. We can't just stick with a manager in the hope that more time is the answer, if it's going to keep us in fear of potential relegation.

We will absolutely need to see 20+ more points next season for me to have any belief that this manager can equip us to be winners. I'm not sure even I would be comfortable if we just go from 40~ to 50~ next term.

The other side of my opening to this post is the fans who say people like me would be accepting a lower standard. A standard that isn't Manchester United. While I think there is some kind of a reality check needed, as in we are not that Manchester United anymore and haven't been for 10 years, there does need to be that reminder of where we have to get to, and quickly. Can't please everyone, but I do think we'll have to see more of a leap than just sneaking back into the top half next season.

I do agree with you GaryLifo by the way. I was speaking with friends that over the last few months I am seeing some form of improvement in overall performances. We still need more cutting edge up front, both in creating and finishing chances. But a lot of other metrics are indeed improving, and the eye test doesn't lie - I can actually see improvement in general. Casemiro looks a player again, Bruno amazing, Maguire stepping up etc. Lots of smaller positives are appearing but the team can still have horrible moments like going 4-1 down to Brentford (albeit with huge changes to the line-up). Despite this though, it's extremely concerning when we've only beaten one non-relegated side in 16 matches. If you are playing better, it has to start converting into results. Europa is only going to save our season if we can win it and might be papering over cracks like ETH.

We'll see how it goes. I'd love nothing more than to eat my words in regards to all the concerns and we look good again

 

[SonOfFergie]

Shark's comment above is what sways me as I believe like you it's probably a bit of both but the fact that no manager has implemented a style it suggests it's something else, whether that's the players or something behind the scenes I am not sure but I don't believe changing the manager does anything.

I personally believe it's an allowance of standards to drop, a focus more on money and social media than football and working hard, sub standard environments which are responsible for getting that extra few % at times.

Characteristicaly we have the right guy. Doesn't speak bullshit. Is changing the culture. Cleaning negative presence and deadwood. Patterns of play are starting to emerge. Some players have improved (Bruno, Garnacho, Zirkzee, Maguire, Casemiro...). We must not forget that due to circumstances he basically couldn't count on most of the attacking players like Rashford, Sancho, Antony, could also say we lost Mason of potential attackers from the past that would be currently an ever present attacking outlet in alternative universe. So toothless in attack, injuries, shaky goalkeeper etc.

Let's give him a summer transfer window and hope we can clear some deadwood and sign 3-4 players of first 11 quality that can hit the ground running. I am sure results will drastically improve. I'm 100% manager is not the problem.

 

[Brand Nubian]

At the end of the day, its always about results. More wins, more prolonged runs of good results, and even the likes of Souness or Shearer will stop talking shite, putting unecessary pressure on the manager, the players and the whole club.

As an aside as my memory is bad at this stage: Did LVG really played 3 at the back and wingbacks formation? As his plan A? Dont remember it, and I certainly dont remember such an outrage towards Louis playing that "wrong" scheme. What the pundits now do to Amorim, just because he plays 3 backs and wingbacks is beyond the pale.

 

[RedSky]

Those closest to wanting Amorim out at the end of the season keep trying to claim those of us who want him given longer are also saying

1. The entire squad is shit
2. We are happy with the league position
3. 7 new players are needed
4. These must be highly specialised players who can only play in 343 and it's variations.
5. Amorim must not be sacked even if we're 10th-15th again at Xmas next season

I'm very much Amorim in, but my take on the above is

1. We have many very good players who I think can be part of a successful united squad under Amorim. Yoro, De Ligt, Mazraoui, Amad, Ugarte, Bruno, Garnacho. Plus some who it's too soon to say about such as Heaven, Dorgu, Zirkzee.

2. Nobody is happy with the league position or the results. I have been though, encouraged by a lot of what I'm seeing in the structure and build up play. So I think we are in a slightly false league position, e.g. deserve to be a few places higher, which would still be crap but not this crap.

3. 2-3 high quality players as in 2 forwards and one midfielder would, in my view, get us back up into top 4/5 contention next season. This is because I'm expecting many of the current squad to be more consistent next season after a solid pre- season with this manager.

4. This is just daft. Very few footballers do not have at least some flexibility in terms of the formations and systems they can play. We're most strongly linked with Cunha, Delap and Ederson, none of whom would fit the highly niche description.

5. Can only speak for myself, but have also seen plenty other folk who want him given longer say this too... but if we're 10th-15th at Christmas next season after he's had 2-3 good signings and a full summer with the players, I'll have no issue with him being sacked.

Sorry for the long post, but just fed up with this going round and round based upon straw-man stuff, which both sides have been guilty of in this thread to be fair.

Sums up my thoughts as well. Good post.

 

[tomaldinho1]

At the end of the day, its always about results. More wins, more prolonged runs of good results, and even the likes of Souness or Shearer will stop talking shite, putting unecessary pressure on the manager, the players and the whole club.

As an aside as my memory is bad at this stage: Did LVG really played 3 at the back and wingbacks formation? As his plan A? Dont remember it, and I certainly dont remember such an outrage towards Louis playing that "wrong" scheme. What the pundits now do to Amorim, just because he plays 3 backs and wingbacks is beyond the pale.

He did for like 2 games from memory, then switched as it wasn't working.

I think next season is a lot more about results, this season there's clearly a lot of trust/patience - I think that's fair.

 

[justsomebloke]

He did for like 2 games from memory, then switched as it wasn't working.

I think next season is a lot more about results, this season there's clearly a lot of trust/patience - I think that's fair.

Except every time he opens his mouth, it's not exactly trust and patience that comes out - he habitually eviscerates his team. He does talk about how this is going to take such a long time. I suppose you might call that patience, although the reason why it's going to take so long is that he clearly doesn't trust his squad.

 

[stepic]

I suppose you might call that patience, although the reason why it's going to take so long is that he clearly doesn't trust his squad.

With good reason tbf

 

[Chesterlestreet]

We have to hope but it’s not as if it’s unreasonable to still lack faith in the club from a decision-making/planning perspective.

Not unreasonable at all.

For me, personally - I have no faith in the club (the new management). Why should I? They still have everything to prove.

Doesn't mean I'm not willing to give them a chance to prove themselves - I am absolutely willing to do that. But faith - forget it. I had faith in United under Fergie - but he did a thing or two to warrant it.

 

[RedfromIreland]

Not unreasonable at all.

For me, personally - I have no faith in the club (the new management). Why should I? They still have everything to prove.

Doesn't mean I'm not willing to give them a chance to prove themselves - I am absolutely willing to do that. But faith - forget it. I had faith in United under Fergie - but he did a thing or two to warrant it.

Not in his first three seasons.
Yes we know what a legend Fergie was but, it took him three seasons to win his first trophy. I would like to think Amorim would have at least two seasons to get his team working as he would like it to.