ESPN: Amorim prioritising, Pace, Power and Atheticism this summer

[Cassidy]

Please, I think you're painting a completely different picture of Dorgu. He's been almost always flat footed and not as proactive as he needs to be. He gets bullied when he's too ponderous and is very awkward with his dribbling.

Garnacho most certainly does have the physical tools barring height. He's actually a strong player and works very hard, he can dribble better and is just as quick. He suits the left flank and would most certainly be a better attacking threat.

As I said if we waited for the summer we'd have better options. I named them. Heck one of them is free.

You will be going all day trying to talk to that poster about Dorgu and Garnacho believe me.

 

[VP89]

Totally disagree regarding Garnacho, his dribbling is no better (they're both poor tbf), is much more easily brushed off the ball, and they work similarly hard. He provides no attacking threat whatsoever, at least Dorgu looks for teammates and puts in some decent crosses now and again.

If we waited until the summer our season could have been over much sooner, given that we've had to rely on Garnacho as one of the 10s, that would have left Amass as our only LWB option, and he's nowhere near ready. On top of that, the better options you name would all be more expensive, and Mitchell going on a free will have a lot of competition. It's nowhere near as simple as you make out, given our financial situation and other clubs sniffing around.

As an aside, we're doing this in the wrong thread, we should move it to the Dorgu thread if possible.

Garnacho is a far bigger attacking threat than Dorgu, I don't think this actually needs to discussed any further, tis just bleeding obvious.

If we waited until summer, we'd rely on Amass as our only LWB and guess what, we'd still probably win as many games as we did. It's a really low bar to be honest I'd actually be impressed if we did any worse. Alvaro Fernandez is comfortably better than Dorgu and we have a 20m EUR buyback on him. We dont have to look far at all to know that Dorgu for 35m EUR in January was an embarrassing panic buy.

 

[ThierryHenry14]

Neither have what youd call pace and power, they are good athletes but first and foremost they are good on the ball coupled with being good athletes makes them great players, without being good on the ball what good is any of the other stuff and that's my argument

I believe he is referring to players similar to Patrick Vieira, Yaya Toure as CM to play in EPL in a weekly basis. Not any players with physical attributes but no technique. You need balance in midfield anyway, just like Arsenal has Odegaard as creative hub. Newcastle's midfield is actually physically strong as well.

 

[dinostar77]

I believe he is referring to players similar to Patrick Vieira, Yaya Toure as CM to play in EPL in a weekly basis. Not any players with physical attributes but no technique. You need balance in midfield anyway, just like Arsenal has Odegaard as creative hub.

A modern day yaya toure at CM for us would be amazing

 

[Ekeke]

Mane and Salah very fast. Firmino not fast, but he was a hard worker and surprisingly strong on the ball.

Henderson was very athletic, both quite fast, strong and an amazing engine. Proper fist magnet mind you.

Kanate/Gomez/ were both very fast, Matip decent and prime VVD very fast. Robertson amazing stamina and decent speed. Taa decent.

They ran more than any team, Fergsuon said it was downright unbelievable. They were a very physical team.

Right. But they didnt all have "pace and power". They had players who had pace, they worked hard with running power. Other than the CBs who were clearly very strong, not many of them were "strong". Henderson wasnt any stronger than any other midfielder his size. Again they worked hard with their running and pressing. So thats stamina and some pace, and then a few CBs who were strong.

Our targets dont need to be fast and strong as main qualities. Some need to be fast, mainly the fullbacks and wingers. CBs need to be strong and the majority of the players would need running/stamina if we were going to gegenpress

 

[bgoodall]

He’s not wrong but a crafty goalscorer or two would help more.

 

[Cassidy]

Right. But they didnt all have "pace and power". They had players who had pace, they worked hard with running power. Other than the CBs who were clearly very strong, not many of them were "strong". Henderson wasnt any stronger than any other midfielder his size. Again they worked hard with their running and pressing. So thats stamina and some pace, and then a few CBs who were strong.

Our targets dont need to be fast and strong as main qualities. Some need to be fast, mainly the fullbacks and wingers. CBs need to be strong and the majority of the players would need running/stamina if we were going to gegenpress

I think you are taking the word power too literal and completely ignoring athleticism which was also a key component. Even then Liverpool had all 3 components across their squad as pointed out.

When you say running power you are talking about athleticism. You could not bully Liverpools midfield in their prime they literally ran you over and played with an intensity that suffocated teams. The CB pairing bullied CFs

 

[Cassidy]

He’s not wrong but a crafty goalscorer or two would help more.

We need both

 

[Gavinb33]

I believe he is referring to players similar to Patrick Vieira, Yaya Toure as CM to play in EPL in a weekly basis. Not any players with physical attributes but no technique. You need balance in midfield anyway, just like Arsenal has Odegaard as creative hub. Newcastle's midfield is actually physically strong as well.

Yaya and Viera were also great on the ball as well as being powerful, my argument isn't we don't need this as an attribute but without the technique it's a useless attribute in a player for teams operating at the top level, you think Giardiola is buying someone who can just run ?

 

[Cassidy]

Yaya and Viera were also great on the ball as well as being powerful, my argument isn't we don't need this as an attribute but without the technique it's a useless attribute in a player for teams operating at the top level, you think Giardiola is buying someone who can just run ?

Do you think Guardiola is buying players who can’t run?

 

[Rossa]

Right. But they didnt all have "pace and power". They had players who had pace, they worked hard with running power. Other than the CBs who were clearly very strong, not many of them were "strong". Henderson wasnt any stronger than any other midfielder his size. Again they worked hard with their running and pressing. So thats stamina and some pace, and then a few CBs who were strong.

Our targets dont need to be fast and strong as main qualities. Some need to be fast, mainly the fullbacks and wingers. CBs need to be strong and the majority of the players would need running/stamina if we were going to gegenpress

anyone saying we need every player in our team to be prime Bale? Nah, but we need a helluva lot more pace than we currently have. Arguably, we have the slowest team in the PL. we need better players, mainly, but ee have a real lack of pace.

 

[Rossa]

Yaya and Viera were also great on the ball as well as being powerful, my argument isn't we don't need this as an attribute but without the technique it's a useless attribute in a player for teams operating at the top level, you think Giardiola is buying someone who can just run ?

But who is arguing against that? Nobody thinks we should pick terrible footballers but great athletes. It’s possible to think both. Amorim probbythinks we need great footballers with a physical edge, and I wholeheartedly agree. We are weak, slow and lack stamina.

 

[Cassidy]

But who is arguing against that? Nobody thinks we should pick terrible footballers but great athletes. It’s possible to think both. Amorim probbythinks we need great footballers with a physical edge, and I wholeheartedly agree. We are weak, slow and lack stamina.

This

 

[M Bison]

McT fits the bill perfectly, what a waste!

 

[Bwuk]

Lewis Ferguson at Bologna.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

But who is arguing against that? Nobody thinks we should pick terrible footballers but great athletes. It’s possible to think both. Amorim probby thinks we need great footballers with a physical edge, and I wholeheartedly agree. We are weak, slow and lack stamina.

What manager doesn’t want great footballers with a physical edge???

I mean, that just describes all the best players in history pretty much, from Pele to Cryuff, to van Basten, R9, Zidane, R7 etc.

 

[ExoduS]

Previous managers were prioritizing slowness, weakness and clumsiness. I think Amorim figured something out.

 

[Ekeke]

anyone saying we need every player in our team to be prime Bale? Nah, but we need a helluva lot more pace than we currently have. Arguably, we have the slowest team in the PL. we need better players, mainly, but ee have a real lack of pace.

The thread states prioritizing pace, power and athleticism. It doesnt say players with 1 of those. And we have some players with 1 of those, some with 2 so if it meant players with 1 or 2 of those, then its no different from previous transfer windows. Its only different if we're looking for players who are athletes first, are fast and strong as lets say 2 of their top 3 strengths.

Power :

Maguire
Zirkzee occasionally and hopefully more often next season
Evans barely plays but he's strong in his later years

Running power/stamina :

Ugarte
Bruno
Dorgu
Dalot
Garnacho
Amad
Casemiro in some games

Speed :

Amad
Garnacho
Dorgu
Dalot
Hojlund a bit

The truth is the only area we "lack" pace, power and athleticism is in midfield where our best players Bruno and Casemiro are older. Ugarte has one of them but isnt as good as Casemiro. Mainoo looked to have a bit of strength first season but not really 2nd season so thats something he will hopefully improve on along with running power.

 

[giorno]

Kovacic also has impeccable technique and so does Bernado Silva whats the difference with Rodri and them? The pace and power stuff is not bullshit and also not even new

No one is saying sign players with no fecking technique

Kovacic's entire shtick is that he's lightning fast? He doesn't have impeccable technique, far from it. He's very much a physical player

 

[ElCuddlos]

Players like Vitinha do it all really. He's superb technically, and while he's not "powerful", he is extremely tenacious, industrious and constantly moving. I love that sort of player. Pace and power are important tools to have, but not every player has to fit that mold. It just has to be a vein that runs through the team, to give it balance. Players like Vitinha, Neves, Modric, Verratti, Barella, who aren't very big but have relentless energy and technical supremacy are the real difference makers. They give you constant passing options, and close down the opposition very quickly. They are all also what I would call "speedy". Might not be the fastest over a 30-40 sprint, but that's fairly irrelevant in 95% of football. They are however some of the quickest players over 5-10 yards, and capable of rapid and sudden changes in direction.

What we have to do is avoid players who are physically unimpressive. Size isn't a predicator of a player's ability to be physically impactful, as we've just discussed; but workrate, acceleration, and the ability to hold off opposing players, as well as close them down, are. You can't have outright slow players, who aren't physically dominant. That's a duo of death. Because they'll just get bullied. Amad for example is pretty quick, and has superb acceleration. His balance, technique and workrate means he's one of the best players we have at receiving under pressure and holding opponents off, as well as one of the best at closing people down and winning possession in the final third. He's also fecking tiny. In contrast, Hojlund is twice his size, and I would wager faster over 30-40 yards - once they get into a full on sprint over distance - yet he is infinitely worse at those parts of the game. So that just bring us back to technique being such a critical factor. In fact, it's the one constant factor you need, coupled with either pace/speed or power. You can have a very technically gifted player but if he's slow and weak, I fear he'll be eaten alive in the PL or only show a fraction of what he's capable.

Cunha is a good example of a player who has technical ability married to pace and power. Mudryk is an example of a player with pace and power, but very limited technical ability. So the pace and power by itself just isn't enough. You could make the same comparison in midfield, between say Valverde and McTominay. Both robust, extremely industrious midfielders, who are strong with and without the ball and decently quick (Valverde is quicker); but only one of them has top class technique, and it elevates him to a much higher level.

In defence I feel that Yoro and De Ligt are two pieces of a three piece puzzle. Maguire is a capable understudy, but we are badly lacking in that third spot. Martinez is aggressive but actually very poor at physical duels when people go at him. He's great at stepping up and intercepting, but when people try to go past him with pace, he's always found wanting, because he's quite small and he's really slow. His technique in progressing play is what makes him potentially useful, but you always feel like he has a major deficiency. He'd be an exceptional player if he either had (a) that old school Italian defensive nouse that makes him nearly impossible to dribble by, it's a mental attribute much more than a physical one, based on timing, positioning, and reading of the game, or (b) he had one outstanding physical attribute, either good recovery pace, or exceptional physical strength. That would be enough to balance him out as a player. As he doesn't have any three of those qualities, he'll always be a question mark in our back line. If you are completing this team to optimal levels, you would bring in a left footed centre back who is fairly tall, physically robust, decently quick, and can pick a pass. It would be a marquee signing, and it would balance the whole back line out.

I am very much of the opinion that we get players who are the right fit for each position, as opposed to getting the best players we can and attempting to fit them in. This is why I would be sad but also generally understanding of a decision to cash in on Bruno if we get a massive offer from SA. Yes, you'd miss his talismanic presence, but I think it's fair to say that as a CM he has certain deficiencies that make him a less than ideal fit - although I think he can do a very good job there - and our system needs (as Amorim would say) 10's who can play like midfielders but run like wingers. Bruno is a goal threat, both in scoring and creation, and if we played two wide players and a striker, or two strikers, I think he's superb at sitting in that hole and running around wherever he wants....arriving late etc. But our 10's need to run into channels, they need to be able to go past people e.g. run like wingers, but also be able to come deep link up play, connect with the midfield. Bruno can realistically only do half that job.

As a rule of thumb, I think it's a bad idea to sell high potential players at just 20 years old. It's just to be expected that they will have deficiencies. They aren't finished players. They need to be given time. However, if we take the case of Garnacho - for example - here is a player that has tons of pace and acceleration, but is technically inconsistent, very weak, and whose decision making is still very naive and raw. The impacts of that on the team are obvious, because when he plays, the burden of responsibility on him to make goal contributions is quite high, and he's just got too many areas of his game that needs development for him to reliably do that just yet. I think he has a lot of the tools to get there (if he has the determination and work ethic to make it a reality), but he's in all likelihood at least a couple years away from starting to become a more finished player. Ideally.....because he isn't some generational, freak talent like Rooney or Yamal, you'd have his minutes managed and he'd be a player who was in the second line of rotation so he can develop properly without such a burden of responsibility. It has always been how we have successfully developed young players. The likes of Scholes, Beckham, Neville etc., didn't become nailed on starters until they were nearly two years older than Garnacho is now (and he's been doing it for a couple of years already). The problem is that Garnacho is apparently throwing his toys out of the pram that he didn't start the final, and about what his role was. For a player who is 20, in a team that's woefully underperformed, and who has seasoned, older, international quality players ahead of him, that's just unacceptable. So if we were to cash in, for 60m plus add-ons, I would happily make an exception and do so.

Mainoo on the flip side is a player who has sat on the bench most of this season - despite having an incredible season last season - and not uttered a word of complaint. Amorim has said that he has had his struggles adapting to the defensive responsibilities of the newly defined CM role, but that he's also been working hard to develop. We've consequently managed his minutes and rotated him in and out. For a player who just turned 20, that's how you do it. He's a player I am desperate to keep a hold of, because I think in two years he will be a special talent.

If we go for players who fit their roles well, then we have some of the pieces in place already, but we also have some massive deficiencies. We can all debate the order of importance, but regardless of the order it comes in, just to get to having a top quality starting XI, the following positions need to be addressed in the following ways (I would also say that all these players need to be battle tested and approaching or in the peak age window (23-26/7)

GK - A commanding, consistent, capable keeper.
LCB - A left footed, tall, strong, fairly quick and decent passing centre-back.
RWB - A fast, industrious, technically gifted winger who isn't afraid of assuming defensive responsibilities and has stamina.
CM - An industrious and technically gifted midfielder who is equally adept at winning the ball as he is using the ball.
Left 10 - A fast, powerful and technical right footed inside left forward.
CF - A quick technically gifted centre-forward who is a clinical finisher and has a proven track record at the highest level. Must be a good presser/industrious.

That's six top level players to fill all the critical holes immediately. With the remaining squad you could then assemble a very good team with a good balance of ages, experience, and current/potential performance levels.

Spot on as usual.

 

[Bright_Eyes]

We have a squad littered of players who are slow and weak, who can't keep or pass a ball either.

We need athleticism in the team to even just bridge the gap between us and teams like Brentford/Bournemouth, never mind the top 5/6 teams.

I just think that a team of athletic players unable to pass or keep the ball well will generally get beaten by a team of unathletic players with good technical ability, all else being equal. That's why athletes in general aren't automatically good at football but unatheletic footballers can still be some of the best around. I think the lack of technical ability is a bigger problem than not having enough physicality, despite the league getting more physical recently. It's oversimplifying things of course but footballers primarily need to be good at manipulating the football to make it go where they want it to go and not get dispossessed. Strength and speed come into that but they're useless without technical ability, otherwise a top athlete from any sport would be great at football and players like Scholes would never have played in the PL. Technical ability is useful without physicality but not vice versa so I'd prioritise it.

 

[simonhch]

Spot on as usual.

Thanks mate.

 

[daba]

Players like Vitinha do it all really. He's superb technically, and while he's not "powerful", he is extremely tenacious, industrious and constantly moving. I love that sort of player. Pace and power are important tools to have, but not every player has to fit that mold. It just has to be a vein that runs through the team, to give it balance. Players like Vitinha, Neves, Modric, Verratti, Barella, who aren't very big but have relentless energy and technical supremacy are the real difference makers. They give you constant passing options, and close down the opposition very quickly. They are all also what I would call "speedy". Might not be the fastest over a 30-40 sprint, but that's fairly irrelevant in 95% of football. They are however some of the quickest players over 5-10 yards, and capable of rapid and sudden changes in direction.

What we have to do is avoid players who are physically unimpressive. Size isn't a predicator of a player's ability to be physically impactful, as we've just discussed; but workrate, acceleration, and the ability to hold off opposing players, as well as close them down, are. You can't have outright slow players, who aren't physically dominant. That's a duo of death. Because they'll just get bullied. Amad for example is pretty quick, and has superb acceleration. His balance, technique and workrate means he's one of the best players we have at receiving under pressure and holding opponents off, as well as one of the best at closing people down and winning possession in the final third. He's also fecking tiny. In contrast, Hojlund is twice his size, and I would wager faster over 30-40 yards - once they get into a full on sprint over distance - yet he is infinitely worse at those parts of the game. So that just bring us back to technique being such a critical factor. In fact, it's the one constant factor you need, coupled with either pace/speed or power. You can have a very technically gifted player but if he's slow and weak, I fear he'll be eaten alive in the PL or only show a fraction of what he's capable.

Cunha is a good example of a player who has technical ability married to pace and power. Mudryk is an example of a player with pace and power, but very limited technical ability. So the pace and power by itself just isn't enough. You could make the same comparison in midfield, between say Valverde and McTominay. Both robust, extremely industrious midfielders, who are strong with and without the ball and decently quick (Valverde is quicker); but only one of them has top class technique, and it elevates him to a much higher level.

In defence I feel that Yoro and De Ligt are two pieces of a three piece puzzle. Maguire is a capable understudy, but we are badly lacking in that third spot. Martinez is aggressive but actually very poor at physical duels when people go at him. He's great at stepping up and intercepting, but when people try to go past him with pace, he's always found wanting, because he's quite small and he's really slow. His technique in progressing play is what makes him potentially useful, but you always feel like he has a major deficiency. He'd be an exceptional player if he either had (a) that old school Italian defensive nouse that makes him nearly impossible to dribble by, it's a mental attribute much more than a physical one, based on timing, positioning, and reading of the game, or (b) he had one outstanding physical attribute, either good recovery pace, or exceptional physical strength. That would be enough to balance him out as a player. As he doesn't have any three of those qualities, he'll always be a question mark in our back line. If you are completing this team to optimal levels, you would bring in a left footed centre back who is fairly tall, physically robust, decently quick, and can pick a pass. It would be a marquee signing, and it would balance the whole back line out.

I am very much of the opinion that we get players who are the right fit for each position, as opposed to getting the best players we can and attempting to fit them in. This is why I would be sad but also generally understanding of a decision to cash in on Bruno if we get a massive offer from SA. Yes, you'd miss his talismanic presence, but I think it's fair to say that as a CM he has certain deficiencies that make him a less than ideal fit - although I think he can do a very good job there - and our system needs (as Amorim would say) 10's who can play like midfielders but run like wingers. Bruno is a goal threat, both in scoring and creation, and if we played two wide players and a striker, or two strikers, I think he's superb at sitting in that hole and running around wherever he wants....arriving late etc. But our 10's need to run into channels, they need to be able to go past people e.g. run like wingers, but also be able to come deep link up play, connect with the midfield. Bruno can realistically only do half that job.

As a rule of thumb, I think it's a bad idea to sell high potential players at just 20 years old. It's just to be expected that they will have deficiencies. They aren't finished players. They need to be given time. However, if we take the case of Garnacho - for example - here is a player that has tons of pace and acceleration, but is technically inconsistent, very weak, and whose decision making is still very naive and raw. The impacts of that on the team are obvious, because when he plays, the burden of responsibility on him to make goal contributions is quite high, and he's just got too many areas of his game that needs development for him to reliably do that just yet. I think he has a lot of the tools to get there (if he has the determination and work ethic to make it a reality), but he's in all likelihood at least a couple years away from starting to become a more finished player. Ideally.....because he isn't some generational, freak talent like Rooney or Yamal, you'd have his minutes managed and he'd be a player who was in the second line of rotation so he can develop properly without such a burden of responsibility. It has always been how we have successfully developed young players. The likes of Scholes, Beckham, Neville etc., didn't become nailed on starters until they were nearly two years older than Garnacho is now (and he's been doing it for a couple of years already). The problem is that Garnacho is apparently throwing his toys out of the pram that he didn't start the final, and about what his role was. For a player who is 20, in a team that's woefully underperformed, and who has seasoned, older, international quality players ahead of him, that's just unacceptable. So if we were to cash in, for 60m plus add-ons, I would happily make an exception and do so.

Mainoo on the flip side is a player who has sat on the bench most of this season - despite having an incredible season last season - and not uttered a word of complaint. Amorim has said that he has had his struggles adapting to the defensive responsibilities of the newly defined CM role, but that he's also been working hard to develop. We've consequently managed his minutes and rotated him in and out. For a player who just turned 20, that's how you do it. He's a player I am desperate to keep a hold of, because I think in two years he will be a special talent.

If we go for players who fit their roles well, then we have some of the pieces in place already, but we also have some massive deficiencies. We can all debate the order of importance, but regardless of the order it comes in, just to get to having a top quality starting XI, the following positions need to be addressed in the following ways (I would also say that all these players need to be battle tested and approaching or in the peak age window (23-26/7)

GK - A commanding, consistent, capable keeper.
LCB - A left footed, tall, strong, fairly quick and decent passing centre-back.
RWB - A fast, industrious, technically gifted winger who isn't afraid of assuming defensive responsibilities and has stamina.
CM - An industrious and technically gifted midfielder who is equally adept at winning the ball as he is using the ball.
Left 10 - A fast, powerful and technical right footed inside left forward.
CF - A quick technically gifted centre-forward who is a clinical finisher and has a proven track record at the highest level. Must be a good presser/industrious.

That's six top level players to fill all the critical holes immediately. With the remaining squad you could then assemble a very good team with a good balance of ages, experience, and current/potential performance levels.

I normally lack the patience for long posts but I read every word of this, so hats off to you for the worthwhile read!

The only position I would debate as being a priority is the LCB slot. Of course I would love to replace Licha with someone more reliable and imposing, but in your description of what we need you’ve essentially described Ayden Heaven. I’d personally wait another year given we’re not in Europe next season, see if Licha stays fit with the lighter workload and see how Heaven develops, as we still have Shaw, Yoro and potentially Kukonki in any emergency to cover at LCB.

I would personally push that money into another LWB this summer. Someone like Ait-Nouri, Robinson or Theo Hernandez (if he’s at all available) allowing us to ease the pressure on Dorgu who can cover as WB on both sides. I think Dorgu will develop into a really solid player given time and when he becomes more confident, but adding in a bombing LWB with quality in the final third would have a bigger impact than a new LCB.

 

[Dion]

Right now the Premier League has an incredibly high physical demand you pretty much have to match (and I'm not calling that superior, it's just a quirk of the league). Right now we just.... don't.

I also think a major issue for us is that we have a bunch of players 22 and under and a bunch of players 29 and over. That's pretty much the opposite of a team at peak physicality.

 

[MadDogg]

The thread states prioritizing pace, power and athleticism. It doesnt say players with 1 of those. And we have some players with 1 of those, some with 2 so if it meant players with 1 or 2 of those, then its no different from previous transfer windows. Its only different if we're looking for players who are athletes first, are fast and strong as lets say 2 of their top 3 strengths.

Power :

Maguire
Zirkzee occasionally and hopefully more often next season
Evans barely plays but he's strong in his later years

Running power/stamina :

Ugarte
Bruno
Dorgu
Dalot
Garnacho
Amad
Casemiro in some games

Speed :

Amad
Garnacho
Dorgu
Dalot
Hojlund a bit

The truth is the only area we "lack" pace, power and athleticism is in midfield where our best players Bruno and Casemiro are older. Ugarte has one of them but isnt as good as Casemiro. Mainoo looked to have a bit of strength first season but not really 2nd season so thats something he will hopefully improve on along with running power.

Most of the players you name there have one strength (although you are being kind to some of them), but they are also downright weak in one or both of the others. Not just average, but comfortably below average. And even their strong attribute often isn't that much above average. That's the issue. We can't just look at the physical strengths of the players and say we've got elements of all of them. You also have to look at the physical weaknesses and realise we've got a huge amount. Whereas when you look at truly athletic players they will combine at least one strength with also being above average in the others. That's what we need more of. That base level needs to be bought up.

We have very few players who are above average in all three aspects. Dalot and probably Dorgu and Yoro are the only ones (with the latter two being a little inconsistent with it for now, but I expect will develop further physically over the next two seasons). Amad is strong enough for his size that it's probably not a outright weakness, but obviously there's only so much he can do considering his size. Ugarte is a strange one in that sometimes he shows elements of all three, but other times those same attributes look average at best. Mazrauoi is probably the most average athlete you'll find, in the sense that I wouldn't say he's weak in any area but also that he doesn't have any strengths.

Everyone else? They've all got noteworthy weaknesses where they are comfortably below average for players in their position. Indeed, overall there are more weaknesses than strengths.

Going forward I'm not expecting every signing to be extremely great athletes across the board. But I do expect that they won't have glaring weaknesses so that even their 'weaker' physical aspects will be quite decent.

 

[Tarrou]

we should have been doing this for the last 10 years or more

I really despair at the decision making at this club that we've got to 2025 without it

every other team in the PL has been prioritising physicality for donkeys years, and we still have a bunch of weak-ass pensioners trying to run our midfield

 

[Red_toad]

Don’t see why we wouldn’t be looking at players who can control games? Wharton would improve our midfield and make a good partnership with Ugarte, seems pointless buying a runner to play alongside a runner.

 

[Tincanalley]

I think this debate has deep roots. It goes back to the wet Wednesday in Stoke in a way, and could an elite team be constructed that could be successful in Europe and in the fixture congested prem, a mix of counter attacking teams, low blocks and high energy press, and the Top sides. It’s exceedingly difficult. SAF didn’t resolve it nor has anyone since at United. Pep of course dominated with eye watering money. But he has struggled of late and not even the ugly robot has fixed it. You see the issue with Arsenal. It’s a mix of money doping, different reffing, even weather. Will be interesting to see how it goes.

 

[giggs-beckham]

Who needs technical ability

 

[MrBrightside1989]

Lewis Ferguson at Bologna.

As a Aberdeen fan I would be delighted with the sell on!

 

[redcarpet]

Players like Vitinha do it all really. He's superb technically, and while he's not "powerful", he is extremely tenacious, industrious and constantly moving. I love that sort of player. Pace and power are important tools to have, but not every player has to fit that mold. It just has to be a vein that runs through the team, to give it balance. Players like Vitinha, Neves, Modric, Verratti, Barella, who aren't very big but have relentless energy and technical supremacy are the real difference makers. They give you constant passing options, and close down the opposition very quickly. They are all also what I would call "speedy". Might not be the fastest over a 30-40 sprint, but that's fairly irrelevant in 95% of football. They are however some of the quickest players over 5-10 yards, and capable of rapid and sudden changes in direction.

What we have to do is avoid players who are physically unimpressive. Size isn't a predicator of a player's ability to be physically impactful, as we've just discussed; but workrate, acceleration, and the ability to hold off opposing players, as well as close them down, are. You can't have outright slow players, who aren't physically dominant. That's a duo of death. Because they'll just get bullied. Amad for example is pretty quick, and has superb acceleration. His balance, technique and workrate means he's one of the best players we have at receiving under pressure and holding opponents off, as well as one of the best at closing people down and winning possession in the final third. He's also fecking tiny. In contrast, Hojlund is twice his size, and I would wager faster over 30-40 yards - once they get into a full on sprint over distance - yet he is infinitely worse at those parts of the game. So that just bring us back to technique being such a critical factor. In fact, it's the one constant factor you need, coupled with either pace/speed or power. You can have a very technically gifted player but if he's slow and weak, I fear he'll be eaten alive in the PL or only show a fraction of what he's capable.

Cunha is a good example of a player who has technical ability married to pace and power. Mudryk is an example of a player with pace and power, but very limited technical ability. So the pace and power by itself just isn't enough. You could make the same comparison in midfield, between say Valverde and McTominay. Both robust, extremely industrious midfielders, who are strong with and without the ball and decently quick (Valverde is quicker); but only one of them has top class technique, and it elevates him to a much higher level.

In defence I feel that Yoro and De Ligt are two pieces of a three piece puzzle. Maguire is a capable understudy, but we are badly lacking in that third spot. Martinez is aggressive but actually very poor at physical duels when people go at him. He's great at stepping up and intercepting, but when people try to go past him with pace, he's always found wanting, because he's quite small and he's really slow. His technique in progressing play is what makes him potentially useful, but you always feel like he has a major deficiency. He'd be an exceptional player if he either had (a) that old school Italian defensive nouse that makes him nearly impossible to dribble by, it's a mental attribute much more than a physical one, based on timing, positioning, and reading of the game, or (b) he had one outstanding physical attribute, either good recovery pace, or exceptional physical strength. That would be enough to balance him out as a player. As he doesn't have any three of those qualities, he'll always be a question mark in our back line. If you are completing this team to optimal levels, you would bring in a left footed centre back who is fairly tall, physically robust, decently quick, and can pick a pass. It would be a marquee signing, and it would balance the whole back line out.

I am very much of the opinion that we get players who are the right fit for each position, as opposed to getting the best players we can and attempting to fit them in. This is why I would be sad but also generally understanding of a decision to cash in on Bruno if we get a massive offer from SA. Yes, you'd miss his talismanic presence, but I think it's fair to say that as a CM he has certain deficiencies that make him a less than ideal fit - although I think he can do a very good job there - and our system needs (as Amorim would say) 10's who can play like midfielders but run like wingers. Bruno is a goal threat, both in scoring and creation, and if we played two wide players and a striker, or two strikers, I think he's superb at sitting in that hole and running around wherever he wants....arriving late etc. But our 10's need to run into channels, they need to be able to go past people e.g. run like wingers, but also be able to come deep link up play, connect with the midfield. Bruno can realistically only do half that job.

As a rule of thumb, I think it's a bad idea to sell high potential players at just 20 years old. It's just to be expected that they will have deficiencies. They aren't finished players. They need to be given time. However, if we take the case of Garnacho - for example - here is a player that has tons of pace and acceleration, but is technically inconsistent, very weak, and whose decision making is still very naive and raw. The impacts of that on the team are obvious, because when he plays, the burden of responsibility on him to make goal contributions is quite high, and he's just got too many areas of his game that needs development for him to reliably do that just yet. I think he has a lot of the tools to get there (if he has the determination and work ethic to make it a reality), but he's in all likelihood at least a couple years away from starting to become a more finished player. Ideally.....because he isn't some generational, freak talent like Rooney or Yamal, you'd have his minutes managed and he'd be a player who was in the second line of rotation so he can develop properly without such a burden of responsibility. It has always been how we have successfully developed young players. The likes of Scholes, Beckham, Neville etc., didn't become nailed on starters until they were nearly two years older than Garnacho is now (and he's been doing it for a couple of years already). The problem is that Garnacho is apparently throwing his toys out of the pram that he didn't start the final, and about what his role was. For a player who is 20, in a team that's woefully underperformed, and who has seasoned, older, international quality players ahead of him, that's just unacceptable. So if we were to cash in, for 60m plus add-ons, I would happily make an exception and do so.

Mainoo on the flip side is a player who has sat on the bench most of this season - despite having an incredible season last season - and not uttered a word of complaint. Amorim has said that he has had his struggles adapting to the defensive responsibilities of the newly defined CM role, but that he's also been working hard to develop. We've consequently managed his minutes and rotated him in and out. For a player who just turned 20, that's how you do it. He's a player I am desperate to keep a hold of, because I think in two years he will be a special talent.

If we go for players who fit their roles well, then we have some of the pieces in place already, but we also have some massive deficiencies. We can all debate the order of importance, but regardless of the order it comes in, just to get to having a top quality starting XI, the following positions need to be addressed in the following ways (I would also say that all these players need to be battle tested and approaching or in the peak age window (23-26/7)

GK - A commanding, consistent, capable keeper.
LCB - A left footed, tall, strong, fairly quick and decent passing centre-back.
RWB - A fast, industrious, technically gifted winger who isn't afraid of assuming defensive responsibilities and has stamina.
CM - An industrious and technically gifted midfielder who is equally adept at winning the ball as he is using the ball.
Left 10 - A fast, powerful and technical right footed inside left forward.
CF - A quick technically gifted centre-forward who is a clinical finisher and has a proven track record at the highest level. Must be a good presser/industrious.

That's six top level players to fill all the critical holes immediately. With the remaining squad you could then assemble a very good team with a good balance of ages, experience, and current/potential performance levels.

Great post. Always the voice of reason.

I do think Heaven has shown great potential to be part of the 3 piece puzzle.

I wrote in another thread how a back 3 of de Ligt, Yoro and Heaven (before Heaven's injury) would help mitigate Spurs's physical advantage over us.

Alas, it was our lack of goal threat, rather than physicality that was the issue.

 

[Rossa]

What manager doesn’t want great footballers with a physical edge???

I mean, that just describes all the best players in history pretty much, from Pele to Cryuff, to van Basten, R9, Zidane, R7 etc.

Zidane said he might have struggled in modern football as he was a little slow. Xavi, Pirlo, Scholes were not blessed with physical attributes. But they were either part lf great teams or surrounded by more physicality.

Physical edge doesn’t come at the expense of technique. It can, however considerably elevate a player. Valencia had some limitations, but him as a rwb in this system would be brilliant, for instance. Evra had great technical abilities, but his acceleration and stamina truly set him apart.

 

[Bondi77]

So something like Fergie did when we brought Hughes back and Bruce, Pallister, Ince and Keane to the club.
Physical athletic players that were strong in their positions and would not take a backward step to the opposition.
This is so simple it is laughable.

 

[Rossa]

The thread states prioritizing pace, power and athleticism. It doesnt say players with 1 of those. And we have some players with 1 of those, some with 2 so if it meant players with 1 or 2 of those, then its no different from previous transfer windows. Its only different if we're looking for players who are athletes first, are fast and strong as lets say 2 of their top 3 strengths.

Power :

Maguire
Zirkzee occasionally and hopefully more often next season
Evans barely plays but he's strong in his later years

Running power/stamina :

Ugarte
Bruno
Dorgu
Dalot
Garnacho
Amad
Casemiro in some games

Speed :

Amad
Garnacho
Dorgu
Dalot
Hojlund a bit

The truth is the only area we "lack" pace, power and athleticism is in midfield where our best players Bruno and Casemiro are older. Ugarte has one of them but isnt as good as Casemiro. Mainoo looked to have a bit of strength first season but not really 2nd season so thats something he will hopefully improve on along with running power.

Amad is very quick, but he lacks top speed. Garnacho is fast, but he’s not prime Bale, Giggs, Ronaldo or even Vinicius, Nani fast.

Our central defense is slow. Only Yoro has pace. Dorgu is OK, but not blistering. Dalot has great top speed, but he lacks intensity.

Our midfield is very slow. Ugarte is quick enough.

Even our fast players are merely average compared to other players in similar positions.

 

[VP89]

So something like Fergie did when we brought Hughes back and Bruce, Pallister, Ince and Keane to the club.
Physical athletic players that were strong in their positions and would not take a backward step to the opposition.
This is so simple it is laughable.

Considering technical isn't part of this brief it seems, Im worried theyl still feck it up. The players you named also knew how to play ball

 

[BenitoSTARR]

Players like Vitinha do it all really. He's superb technically, and while he's not "powerful", he is extremely tenacious, industrious and constantly moving. I love that sort of player. Pace and power are important tools to have, but not every player has to fit that mold. It just has to be a vein that runs through the team, to give it balance. Players like Vitinha, Neves, Modric, Verratti, Barella, who aren't very big but have relentless energy and technical supremacy are the real difference makers. They give you constant passing options, and close down the opposition very quickly. They are all also what I would call "speedy". Might not be the fastest over a 30-40 sprint, but that's fairly irrelevant in 95% of football. They are however some of the quickest players over 5-10 yards, and capable of rapid and sudden changes in direction.

What we have to do is avoid players who are physically unimpressive. Size isn't a predicator of a player's ability to be physically impactful, as we've just discussed; but workrate, acceleration, and the ability to hold off opposing players, as well as close them down, are. You can't have outright slow players, who aren't physically dominant. That's a duo of death. Because they'll just get bullied. Amad for example is pretty quick, and has superb acceleration. His balance, technique and workrate means he's one of the best players we have at receiving under pressure and holding opponents off, as well as one of the best at closing people down and winning possession in the final third. He's also fecking tiny. In contrast, Hojlund is twice his size, and I would wager faster over 30-40 yards - once they get into a full on sprint over distance - yet he is infinitely worse at those parts of the game. So that just bring us back to technique being such a critical factor. In fact, it's the one constant factor you need, coupled with either pace/speed or power. You can have a very technically gifted player but if he's slow and weak, I fear he'll be eaten alive in the PL or only show a fraction of what he's capable.

Cunha is a good example of a player who has technical ability married to pace and power. Mudryk is an example of a player with pace and power, but very limited technical ability. So the pace and power by itself just isn't enough. You could make the same comparison in midfield, between say Valverde and McTominay. Both robust, extremely industrious midfielders, who are strong with and without the ball and decently quick (Valverde is quicker); but only one of them has top class technique, and it elevates him to a much higher level.

In defence I feel that Yoro and De Ligt are two pieces of a three piece puzzle. Maguire is a capable understudy, but we are badly lacking in that third spot. Martinez is aggressive but actually very poor at physical duels when people go at him. He's great at stepping up and intercepting, but when people try to go past him with pace, he's always found wanting, because he's quite small and he's really slow. His technique in progressing play is what makes him potentially useful, but you always feel like he has a major deficiency. He'd be an exceptional player if he either had (a) that old school Italian defensive nouse that makes him nearly impossible to dribble by, it's a mental attribute much more than a physical one, based on timing, positioning, and reading of the game, or (b) he had one outstanding physical attribute, either good recovery pace, or exceptional physical strength. That would be enough to balance him out as a player. As he doesn't have any three of those qualities, he'll always be a question mark in our back line. If you are completing this team to optimal levels, you would bring in a left footed centre back who is fairly tall, physically robust, decently quick, and can pick a pass. It would be a marquee signing, and it would balance the whole back line out.

I am very much of the opinion that we get players who are the right fit for each position, as opposed to getting the best players we can and attempting to fit them in. This is why I would be sad but also generally understanding of a decision to cash in on Bruno if we get a massive offer from SA. Yes, you'd miss his talismanic presence, but I think it's fair to say that as a CM he has certain deficiencies that make him a less than ideal fit - although I think he can do a very good job there - and our system needs (as Amorim would say) 10's who can play like midfielders but run like wingers. Bruno is a goal threat, both in scoring and creation, and if we played two wide players and a striker, or two strikers, I think he's superb at sitting in that hole and running around wherever he wants....arriving late etc. But our 10's need to run into channels, they need to be able to go past people e.g. run like wingers, but also be able to come deep link up play, connect with the midfield. Bruno can realistically only do half that job.

As a rule of thumb, I think it's a bad idea to sell high potential players at just 20 years old. It's just to be expected that they will have deficiencies. They aren't finished players. They need to be given time. However, if we take the case of Garnacho - for example - here is a player that has tons of pace and acceleration, but is technically inconsistent, very weak, and whose decision making is still very naive and raw. The impacts of that on the team are obvious, because when he plays, the burden of responsibility on him to make goal contributions is quite high, and he's just got too many areas of his game that needs development for him to reliably do that just yet. I think he has a lot of the tools to get there (if he has the determination and work ethic to make it a reality), but he's in all likelihood at least a couple years away from starting to become a more finished player. Ideally.....because he isn't some generational, freak talent like Rooney or Yamal, you'd have his minutes managed and he'd be a player who was in the second line of rotation so he can develop properly without such a burden of responsibility. It has always been how we have successfully developed young players. The likes of Scholes, Beckham, Neville etc., didn't become nailed on starters until they were nearly two years older than Garnacho is now (and he's been doing it for a couple of years already). The problem is that Garnacho is apparently throwing his toys out of the pram that he didn't start the final, and about what his role was. For a player who is 20, in a team that's woefully underperformed, and who has seasoned, older, international quality players ahead of him, that's just unacceptable. So if we were to cash in, for 60m plus add-ons, I would happily make an exception and do so.

Mainoo on the flip side is a player who has sat on the bench most of this season - despite having an incredible season last season - and not uttered a word of complaint. Amorim has said that he has had his struggles adapting to the defensive responsibilities of the newly defined CM role, but that he's also been working hard to develop. We've consequently managed his minutes and rotated him in and out. For a player who just turned 20, that's how you do it. He's a player I am desperate to keep a hold of, because I think in two years he will be a special talent.

If we go for players who fit their roles well, then we have some of the pieces in place already, but we also have some massive deficiencies. We can all debate the order of importance, but regardless of the order it comes in, just to get to having a top quality starting XI, the following positions need to be addressed in the following ways (I would also say that all these players need to be battle tested and approaching or in the peak age window (23-26/7)

GK - A commanding, consistent, capable keeper.
LCB - A left footed, tall, strong, fairly quick and decent passing centre-back.
RWB - A fast, industrious, technically gifted winger who isn't afraid of assuming defensive responsibilities and has stamina.
CM - An industrious and technically gifted midfielder who is equally adept at winning the ball as he is using the ball.
Left 10 - A fast, powerful and technical right footed inside left forward.
CF - A quick technically gifted centre-forward who is a clinical finisher and has a proven track record at the highest level. Must be a good presser/industrious.

That's six top level players to fill all the critical holes immediately. With the remaining squad you could then assemble a very good team with a good balance of ages, experience, and current/potential performance levels.

The fact I read all this rather than scrolling is testament to how good your posts can be.

Barella is my favourite active CM right now, I think he’s superb and would love him at United. He’s the beating heart of Inter.

 

[CM]

Hope I'm wrong but I suspect we're going to go too far the way of favouring physicality over ability as we did with Dorgu. That's not something I want to see for any position, but we really have to prioritise targeting midfielders who can help us in build up and controlling more matches. I'll despair if we neglect that need again for more headless chicken types.

 

[Acquire Me]

Players like Vitinha do it all really. He's superb technically, and while he's not "powerful", he is extremely tenacious, industrious and constantly moving. I love that sort of player. Pace and power are important tools to have, but not every player has to fit that mold. It just has to be a vein that runs through the team, to give it balance. Players like Vitinha, Neves, Modric, Verratti, Barella, who aren't very big but have relentless energy and technical supremacy are the real difference makers. They give you constant passing options, and close down the opposition very quickly. They are all also what I would call "speedy". Might not be the fastest over a 30-40 sprint, but that's fairly irrelevant in 95% of football. They are however some of the quickest players over 5-10 yards, and capable of rapid and sudden changes in direction.

What we have to do is avoid players who are physically unimpressive. Size isn't a predicator of a player's ability to be physically impactful, as we've just discussed; but workrate, acceleration, and the ability to hold off opposing players, as well as close them down, are. You can't have outright slow players, who aren't physically dominant. That's a duo of death. Because they'll just get bullied. Amad for example is pretty quick, and has superb acceleration. His balance, technique and workrate means he's one of the best players we have at receiving under pressure and holding opponents off, as well as one of the best at closing people down and winning possession in the final third. He's also fecking tiny. In contrast, Hojlund is twice his size, and I would wager faster over 30-40 yards - once they get into a full on sprint over distance - yet he is infinitely worse at those parts of the game. So that just bring us back to technique being such a critical factor. In fact, it's the one constant factor you need, coupled with either pace/speed or power. You can have a very technically gifted player but if he's slow and weak, I fear he'll be eaten alive in the PL or only show a fraction of what he's capable.

Cunha is a good example of a player who has technical ability married to pace and power. Mudryk is an example of a player with pace and power, but very limited technical ability. So the pace and power by itself just isn't enough. You could make the same comparison in midfield, between say Valverde and McTominay. Both robust, extremely industrious midfielders, who are strong with and without the ball and decently quick (Valverde is quicker); but only one of them has top class technique, and it elevates him to a much higher level.

In defence I feel that Yoro and De Ligt are two pieces of a three piece puzzle. Maguire is a capable understudy, but we are badly lacking in that third spot. Martinez is aggressive but actually very poor at physical duels when people go at him. He's great at stepping up and intercepting, but when people try to go past him with pace, he's always found wanting, because he's quite small and he's really slow. His technique in progressing play is what makes him potentially useful, but you always feel like he has a major deficiency. He'd be an exceptional player if he either had (a) that old school Italian defensive nouse that makes him nearly impossible to dribble by, it's a mental attribute much more than a physical one, based on timing, positioning, and reading of the game, or (b) he had one outstanding physical attribute, either good recovery pace, or exceptional physical strength. That would be enough to balance him out as a player. As he doesn't have any three of those qualities, he'll always be a question mark in our back line. If you are completing this team to optimal levels, you would bring in a left footed centre back who is fairly tall, physically robust, decently quick, and can pick a pass. It would be a marquee signing, and it would balance the whole back line out.

I am very much of the opinion that we get players who are the right fit for each position, as opposed to getting the best players we can and attempting to fit them in. This is why I would be sad but also generally understanding of a decision to cash in on Bruno if we get a massive offer from SA. Yes, you'd miss his talismanic presence, but I think it's fair to say that as a CM he has certain deficiencies that make him a less than ideal fit - although I think he can do a very good job there - and our system needs (as Amorim would say) 10's who can play like midfielders but run like wingers. Bruno is a goal threat, both in scoring and creation, and if we played two wide players and a striker, or two strikers, I think he's superb at sitting in that hole and running around wherever he wants....arriving late etc. But our 10's need to run into channels, they need to be able to go past people e.g. run like wingers, but also be able to come deep link up play, connect with the midfield. Bruno can realistically only do half that job.

As a rule of thumb, I think it's a bad idea to sell high potential players at just 20 years old. It's just to be expected that they will have deficiencies. They aren't finished players. They need to be given time. However, if we take the case of Garnacho - for example - here is a player that has tons of pace and acceleration, but is technically inconsistent, very weak, and whose decision making is still very naive and raw. The impacts of that on the team are obvious, because when he plays, the burden of responsibility on him to make goal contributions is quite high, and he's just got too many areas of his game that needs development for him to reliably do that just yet. I think he has a lot of the tools to get there (if he has the determination and work ethic to make it a reality), but he's in all likelihood at least a couple years away from starting to become a more finished player. Ideally.....because he isn't some generational, freak talent like Rooney or Yamal, you'd have his minutes managed and he'd be a player who was in the second line of rotation so he can develop properly without such a burden of responsibility. It has always been how we have successfully developed young players. The likes of Scholes, Beckham, Neville etc., didn't become nailed on starters until they were nearly two years older than Garnacho is now (and he's been doing it for a couple of years already). The problem is that Garnacho is apparently throwing his toys out of the pram that he didn't start the final, and about what his role was. For a player who is 20, in a team that's woefully underperformed, and who has seasoned, older, international quality players ahead of him, that's just unacceptable. So if we were to cash in, for 60m plus add-ons, I would happily make an exception and do so.

Mainoo on the flip side is a player who has sat on the bench most of this season - despite having an incredible season last season - and not uttered a word of complaint. Amorim has said that he has had his struggles adapting to the defensive responsibilities of the newly defined CM role, but that he's also been working hard to develop. We've consequently managed his minutes and rotated him in and out. For a player who just turned 20, that's how you do it. He's a player I am desperate to keep a hold of, because I think in two years he will be a special talent.

If we go for players who fit their roles well, then we have some of the pieces in place already, but we also have some massive deficiencies. We can all debate the order of importance, but regardless of the order it comes in, just to get to having a top quality starting XI, the following positions need to be addressed in the following ways (I would also say that all these players need to be battle tested and approaching or in the peak age window (23-26/7)

GK - A commanding, consistent, capable keeper.
LCB - A left footed, tall, strong, fairly quick and decent passing centre-back.
RWB - A fast, industrious, technically gifted winger who isn't afraid of assuming defensive responsibilities and has stamina.
CM - An industrious and technically gifted midfielder who is equally adept at winning the ball as he is using the ball.
Left 10 - A fast, powerful and technical right footed inside left forward.
CF - A quick technically gifted centre-forward who is a clinical finisher and has a proven track record at the highest level. Must be a good presser/industrious.

That's six top level players to fill all the critical holes immediately. With the remaining squad you could then assemble a very good team with a good balance of ages, experience, and current/potential performance levels.

Thanks for sharing your knowledge. Great read.

 

[Revival2024]

95% of the team can't string passes together under pressure and have the technical ability of a lab rat yet Mr Amorim, a current abject failure of a manager, is the one prioritising strength, pace and power. I wonder if technique, reading of the game, temperament and winning mentality will be included?

 

[Tom Van Persie]

Good. Sick of watching us get bullied by just about every team.