Long before he committed his crime the police had already been killing and starving his family
Scores die in Israeli air strikes
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Long before he committed his crime the police had already been killing and starving his family
A better question would be, what would you do if a member of that family was lobbing grenades across the street onto your front lawn, endangering your family, but you don't know who it is and police cannot catch the suspect? Walk across the street, knock on their door and start peace talks? They want you to feck off out of the neighborhood.
But recognizing the right for Israel to exist shouldn't be a bargaining chip.
Well, that's the funny thing. It's not a bargaining chip. It would have been if Hamas was an actual threat to Israel's existance, but it's not. It is really nothing more than a symbolic gesture, but for Israel it is important - and the foundation for everything, not something that should be left for negotiations.
BS. His family are starving simply because of his stupid crimes. Just like in real life, you don't feck with the Mob, if you are not powerful enough and have a family. For you wont suffer alone. If I'm in that family, or a close relative, I swear I would hang the fecker out to dry. Or kill him myself if I could.
If my family was using f16's to blow their family up I'd understand why they were chucking grenades, I would seek a peace deal cause I'd like to keep my humanity
It is a bargaining chip, it's one of the few the Palestinians have, if it were not valuable the Israelis wouldn't make a point of getting it before negotiations start.
Your families starving cause the police took your land, walled you off and control every aspect of your lives
I fail to see how you can bargain with something that brings you more death than anything else.
If it were only a symbolic gesture Israel wouldn't insist it be a precondition to negotiation
I can't understand why people keep bringing the election of Hamas, rockets, and the split with their counterparts in the West Bank into the equation. This issue has been onging for 60 years at a minimum. There was no Hamas or rockets to put blame on in the past, yet there was no success in bringing about peace.
Because we were stupid enough to try and take their land from then and run them out of town in the first place. In that situation I'd be damned before I made that situation worse by tolterating someone endangering my life further. And if I was merely a neghbour, I'd make it a point to get to crush anyone who aided in making that plight worse.
With that gesture done do you realise Israel would have no other option but to make peace?
Try and make peace is not the same as make peace, if all they are offering is the same as 2000 it is not a peace worth making, Palestine would effectively be the same as the townships of South Africa
You just let them run your life?
Since you now have two palestenian entities - One in war with Israel, the other in relative peace - I do believe that's an issue. Yes, there has never been true, official and long term successful peace, but that does not mean you must have war. It should be, and I believe it is, possible to co-exist side by side, trying to find the solutions that will lead to peace, without firing missiles and killing each other.
And I believe it could happen now as well, but with Hamas firing missiles before coming into power, after Israel retreated from certain lands without conditions, and then after coming into power, it doesn't allow much room for maneuvering.
No. I'd try to find sensible ways of getting them to leave me alone. Messing with them isn't such a way. It's no use throwing stone when you live in a glass house. That's a sure way of committing suicide. For just because you threw pebbles at an enemy, they are not under any obligation to throw pebbles back. They could as well send your way large boulders. It's not worth the risk.
It depends on how you look at it. I see it as a symbolic gesture because whether Hamas wants Israel destroyed or not, it will continue to exist. We don't NEED them to accept us, which for me makes it symbolic. But obviously from a higher point of view, it's unthinkable for an Israeli govenment to talk to someone which still bases its existance on the destruction of Israel.
You make the crime sound like an isolated incident. Whereas one could easily see it as one of thousands of such crimes perpetrated by people who openly state that their goal is to wipe Israel off the map, and every Israeli with it.
Substandard life, limited political rights, lousy economy, bleak future and little progress. Sounds like life in every Arab state that doesn't have oil.
You seem to forget these people are living under occupation
A family which had pledged itself, generation after generation, to the obliteration of the people against whom the latest crime was committed. Whether that came before or after the police harming his family is open to interpretation, but it's misleading to view the latest crime as a single incident against which the latest retaliation is disproportionate.
The family has been abused for generation after generation
This thread has got lost under a maze of metaphors.
And you seem to forget that the only thing that has prevented every single one of Israel's neighbors from continuing their efforts to drive the Israelis into the sea - which began shortly after the nation's founding - has been the continual ass-kickings that the Israeli military has dished out, one after another. If they let their guard down for an instant, they believe they would immediately be under attack from all sides - and rightfully so, I think. As a result, occupation or no, they tend to react strongly to efforts that they see as a continuance of the original plan, openly stated in 1948 and 1967 when large pan-Arab armies appeared along and inside their borders, to wipe them off the map. It doesn't excuse some of the things Israel has done over the years...but it does explain quite a bit of it. Don't you think?
It's true, as someone mentioned a few pages back, that some people will not condemn Israel no matter what they do, no matter how much suffering they inflict. But it is similarly true that others are unable to portray Palestinians as anything other than helpless victims, entirely justified in whatever atrocity they commit. There's a beautiful symmetry to it. And by beautiful I mean sickening, sad, and entirely predictable.
which is well known - but many countries that lived under occupation didn't strike at civilian targets (cue "the Israelis do too" posts). and if they are under this massive blockade with people starving how are they getting rockets in?
both sides are to blame the UN needs to do much more. some of the occupied land needs to be returned. Israelis hiding behind "we are surrounded by our enemies" rhetoric holds no water. they were surrounded before and defeated "superior" numbers before.
nothing will change really will it?
That's true bs. Israel wouldn't have the option of doing what Sharon, Netanyahu and his cronies initally wanted in 2000, if Hamas was really guning for peace. Israel's government US support, and support from it's own popluace would well and truly evaportate if they dared keep being unreasonable in sucha situtation.
Furthermore, If the South African's had taken the Hamas route, Apartheid would still be alive and well today and teh lplight in thsoe townships would be way worse. Even despite the help of most of Africa to fight it.
As for the Palestinians, their fecking neigbhours wont even offer them any valuable help, but love to give Hamas support, sacrificing more and more Palestinian lives. Yet Its because of them that Palestine suffers this shit in the first place.
Any populace that can standby whilst 1.5 million people are jailed will standby whilst those same people are subjected to apartheid conditions
This could well expand (by design).
Egypt Foreign Minister has said that Iranian backed Hezbollah has more or less declared war on Egypt for backing Israel against Iranian backed Hamas.
Bush has 4 weeks left and iran is close to getting a nuke.
Even Palestinian President Abbas is blaming Hamas.
Are we seeing an Arab/israeli/US axis forming against Iran?
Egypt Foreign Minister has said that Iranian backed Hezbollah has more or less declared war on Egypt for backing Israel against Iranian backed Hamas.
Bush has 4 weeks left and iran is close to getting a nuke.
Even Palestinian President Abbas is blaming Hamas.
Are we seeing an Arab/israeli/US axis forming against Iran?
As have many others the world over. Few however have succeeded in ridding themselves of powerful occupiers with violence.
On the proportional response argument.
From the Israeli perspective their hope is to find a level of response which prevents the attacks. This isn't a simple number of dead Palestinians. If there are 10,000 people involved in the smuggling distribution and firing of these rockets at Israel then killing every one of them would be in my opinion proportional. In reality they can't do this but they will target as many as they can.
Some of the posters above have made great play of the world opinion and the way of gaining land by force being a thing of the past, a moment which they draw a line at, with specific intent of being advantageous to their sympathies. I would question why they think the way things are done has changed at all?
From the Israeli perspective their hope is to find a level of response which prevents the attacks. This isn't a simple number of dead Palestinians. If there are 10,000 people involved in the smuggling distribution and firing of these rockets at Israel then killing every one of them would be in my opinion proportional. In reality they can't do this but they will target as many as they can.
Some of the posters above have made great play of the world opinion and the way of gaining land by force being a thing of the past, a moment which they draw a line at, with specific intent of being advantageous to their sympathies. I would question why they think the way things are done has changed at all?
I am not indifferent to Human Suffering.
But the Middle East is past the point where the cliche about "eye for an eye makes everyone blind".
Both sides are already blinded by hatred for people they perceive as lesser beings than themselves.
In talking about either the Conflict itself or any individual event within the Conflict, no nuanced approach is understood by the two Sides. They are DEAF as well as blind.
I have therefore reluctantly decided (and urge others to do the same) not to play the blame game and fuel the hatred that both sides need as much as they need the air that they breathe. They actually NEED each other to allow their hatred to grow
I will not say anything that would be construed as a crumb of support for either side in the obscenity that is the Palestine-Israel dispute.
But the Middle East is past the point where the cliche about "eye for an eye makes everyone blind".
Both sides are already blinded by hatred for people they perceive as lesser beings than themselves.
In talking about either the Conflict itself or any individual event within the Conflict, no nuanced approach is understood by the two Sides. They are DEAF as well as blind.
I have therefore reluctantly decided (and urge others to do the same) not to play the blame game and fuel the hatred that both sides need as much as they need the air that they breathe. They actually NEED each other to allow their hatred to grow
I will not say anything that would be construed as a crumb of support for either side in the obscenity that is the Palestine-Israel dispute.
I fear for Lebanon should Hizbollah decide to "help out" Hamas.
God, this thread is so predictable.
This is the inherent problem with internet debating. There are plenty of spastics who can't wait to stick their beaks into a discussion despite not having any background about what their talking about other than what they see on the news or read on the net.
If Hezbollah do shit the Lebannese should take 'em out themselves. Or directly enlist Israeli help to do so.
So in your opinion its far better for them to resort to violence and suffer worse than that for it. When their current plight was actually caused by those who attcked their current occupiers and left them at their mercy?
Absolutely. Despite all the posts made in here there is not ONE poster who has changed his mind on the situation. They are no worse than the politicians they are discussing. I am right, you are wrong , so there....throws toys out of pram
Anyway Raoul, wrong place, but how are you?
I'm great Bob. Long way from Southern California at the moment, but doing well 
They suffer the same whether they attack or not