Scores die in Israeli air strikes
- Thread starter IhabX7
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You should, buddy. This could turn really ugly, although back in Israel and living in Haifa you won't have to tolerate my posts in the event. I'm not sure the wireless reception is good enough in the bombshelter!
You do realise im Kuwaiti? I was in Kuwait during the Gulf war, tanks and soldiers and shit. My uncle, a doctor, had to work at the local bakery just to provide bread for the neighbourhood. My other uncle is in the military and was taken to baghdad tortured and questioned, before he was let free and had hitch a ride back to Kuwait.
You're going through a lot of shit, i understand, but dont assume everyone else is living a rosy life. We're living one now, and thats mainly because the occupiers fecked off.
Its like the Iraqis being brought into our land by the french. They buy homes, businesses. Take up half of Kuwait, and then say " Hey, lets call this Iraq 2 and hope the Kuwaiti's accept it".
We wouldnt accept it, and I dont think the palestinians ever will.
Thats me being objective. I do though hope to God this conflict ends, as too many lives are being ruined.
God bless
You do realise im Kuwaiti? I was in Kuwait during the Gulf war, tanks and soldiers and shit. My uncle, a doctor, had to work at the local bakery just to provide bread for the neighbourhood. My other uncle is in the military and was taken to baghdad tortured and questioned, before he was let free and had hitch a ride back to Kuwait.
You're going through a lot of shit, i understand, but dont assume everyone else is living a rosy life. We're living one now, and thats mainly because the occupiers fecked off.
Its like the Iraqis being brought into our land by the french. They buy homes, businesses. Take up half of Kuwait, and then say " Hey, lets call this Iraq 2 and hope the Kuwaiti's accept it".
We wouldnt accept it, and I dont think the palestinians ever will.
Thats me being objective. I do though hope to God this conflict ends, as too many lives are being ruined.
God bless
In 1991 Kuwait slaughtered and expelled 400,000 palestinians as soon as it was liberated by the allies.
Clearly you know better than most, although when I was talking about people here I wasn't thinking about the very few like you, but the vast majority who just don't know what it's like to live in such a way. I remember the gulf war when Iraq lanched missiles at Israel, and while I wasn't threatened at the second Lebanon war or my the missiles from Gaza, tonight for the first time I actually heard several of them landing during our match. Yep, it's getting closer...
dont think they will...after the last war neither sides seem willing to fight another one in the near future...
Can only assume that Israel is getting as much destruction in as they can before the Republicans leave office. Disgusting that this is still being allowed, never mind sanctioned, by UN members.
I blame peace, restraint, enlightenment and morality.
We only perpetuate a system in which neither side can defeat the other and let's be fecking real here. This will only end when one side defeats the other. What we need is a good old fashioned biblical ass beating.
I honestly don't give two squats who wins but for gods sake can we stop crying? Thousands of people die every day over things we in the west could EASILY prevent. Yet we have to watch on TV and hear about a conflict that should have ended 40 years ago. These people dislike each other. Certain elements within the Palestinian people will not rest until ZEE JEWZ are all dead.
So have at it.
Someone wake me up when one side or the other has gotten it's ass kicked out of the middle east.
Where is Ghengis or Alexander when you need him.
We only perpetuate a system in which neither side can defeat the other and let's be fecking real here. This will only end when one side defeats the other. What we need is a good old fashioned biblical ass beating.
I honestly don't give two squats who wins but for gods sake can we stop crying? Thousands of people die every day over things we in the west could EASILY prevent. Yet we have to watch on TV and hear about a conflict that should have ended 40 years ago. These people dislike each other. Certain elements within the Palestinian people will not rest until ZEE JEWZ are all dead.
So have at it.
Someone wake me up when one side or the other has gotten it's ass kicked out of the middle east.
Where is Ghengis or Alexander when you need him.
Even Napoleon or Alexander would cringe!
They dont have the power to do so, Hezbollah are the strongest political entity in Lebanon providing education and healthcare as well as a military.
Likewise even if they got rid of Hezbollah, I wouldnt put it past Israel going further into that region for "stability purposes".
This is moronic.
If Egypt, Syria and Jordan had wiped Israel off the map in 1967 you would not be advocating the reestablishment of Israel based on 1967 borders.
Egypt, Syria and Jordan waged a war of aggression and got beaten. Territory was seized.
Fair play. END OF STORY.
Napoleon and Alexander would fight a war to win, not to increase casualties and kill people because they hate them.
You don't know me buddy.
Well, if we spoon maybe I will.
Alexander would put all 1.5 million Palestinians in Gaza to the sword.
That is how Alexander operated. He gave you the chance to surrender. If you resisted he sacked the city and killed and enslaved everyone. He made an example so that future cities would simply surrender.
Isn't that ironic. Western civilization was built on the back of terrorism. Effective isn't it.
Well, that's not true at all with respect to the Palestinians. You'll have a hard time finding sources to back that up.
Palestinians are not refusing to surrender...you don't seem to understand the situation
From what we know of him, Alexander would have killed those firing rockets, then let the Palestinians live in peace, have their freedoms, own government, and everything else they need to be part of his empire, as long as they contribute in taxes. In fact, I don't think those firing rockets would be firing them in the first place, there would be no need.
He would never have oppressed and butchered them
Get your facts straight from somewhere other than your arse.
Slaughtered? What do you think we are?
True many were expelled because palestine stood with Iraq in the war, but not slaughtered. The figure is in the thousands most likely.
Sorry, reading that again that sounded slightly rude.
But the facts remain unchanged.
Apologies though.
But the facts remain unchanged.
Apologies though.
My apologies for the slaughter bit - only about 30 were murdered.
400,000 seems to be the official number of palestinians expelled form Kuwait
Well I guess that justifies the killing of a 12 year old boy cowering behind his father
Well I guess that justifies the killing of a 12 year old boy cowering behind his father
While that particular well known incident remains debated - there are many claims he was not, infact, killed by Israeli fire - the fact is that when missiles and bullets are fired, innocent people get hurt. We know that. Hamas has been firing missiles into towns for eight years, and there was nationwide dread to what could happen if just one of them fell into a school yard or a kindergarten. The fact it hasn't happened is nothing more than pure luck.
These are the basics: If Israel isn't attacked, if Israel isn't provoked, if Israel is not at risk, Israel does not strike. We don't shoot for fun and we are not trigger happy. Egypt has realised that, Jordan has realised that, and they'ev made peace with us. even Syria knows that - which is why they have not retaliated after we bombed a nuclear plant of theirs in September. Hamas has decided he'd rather attack us, and to hell with the consequences. They knew what would happen, they knew we would have no choice but defend ourselves eventually, and we've shown great patience.
Fact is, while we refused to respond, and while we tried to move on with the latest, now dead, 6-month 'ceasefire', all that has happened was that Hamas strengthened itself with better, longer range missiles, which are now fired at us and reach new distances and cities which have not been threatened until the last few days. So how can you expect us to do anything else? This is a battle for the lives and safety of the people of Israel, and if my country will give anything less than 100% to protect ME, what have I got to look forward to? The day the missile lands in my living room and kills me? Hey, today could be the day. Or tomorrow, or the day after that. No country can or will accept that.
I understand it fine.
We westerners like to paint Alexander as a nice chap. The fact is he was every bit the brutal conquered that Ghengis Khan was. This behavior was not unique to these two, in fact it was SOP. You set an example, make the reprisals so high that retaliation is unthinkable.
Alexander did exactly as I stated. Massaga, Ora are just two examples in which Alexander slaughtered the entire populations of a city to make an example.
Do you think that everyone in Massaga fought? Or wanted to fight? The rulers resisted and they resisted with their soldiers. The result is everyone was butchered.
Hamas is the democratically elected government in Gaza. Hamas wants to continue the fight with Israel.
Let me state again, I don't care who wins or loses over there. Sure its complicated. Sure people have generations of grievances but we've made it complicated. We are responsible for this mess. We have perpetuated a system in which the status quo is a state of perpetual pseudo war.
Who is this Nucks idiot?
Personally I can't see what political, public relations, military advantage Hamas thinks it has firing rockets in non military zones. It's absurd, and I understand the condemnation of such attacks. Israeli citizens keep asking how we would feel if rockets fell in your area on a regular basis, and what your governments reaction would be - which is fair comment.
The question then arises how you would as a Palestinian feel living as a prisoner, where basic necessities such as electricity, fuel, water, urgent humanitarian and medical supplies are refused entry? how would Israeli citizens feel if many of their residents died for no reason other than being sick and poor?
There is a solution to this, people in that region need to get away from the misconception that he who lays down his weapon and talks is weak.
The question then arises how you would as a Palestinian feel living as a prisoner, where basic necessities such as electricity, fuel, water, urgent humanitarian and medical supplies are refused entry? how would Israeli citizens feel if many of their residents died for no reason other than being sick and poor?
There is a solution to this, people in that region need to get away from the misconception that he who lays down his weapon and talks is weak.
You are right Sultan. The Mandela/Gandhi/ Martin Luther King route always works best in such horrible situations.
The thing is, though, that Hamas is not attacking Israel for those reasons. In fact, the Hamas attacks ARE the reason their people are suffering. Even though missiles have been fired for years, the Gaza strip was getting electricity from Israel's power plants, occasionally things like food and medicine were also allowed to pass through, and had everything been quite, it would have been like that regularly. Admittedly, not allowing that may not sound the most humane thing, however, how can you 'wine and dine' areas you are attacked from? It's a bit crazy.
I've said it before - the problem is there are two entities at the Gaza strip - the people, and their leaders, who have a totally different agenda. The health and well being of their people is not their most important target, or even close. They have shown great ability to smuggle weapons into their area. They could just as easily have smuggled food and medicine, but choose not to. They could have stopped firing and build trust with Israel, but choose not to.
Good one. Who is this uneducated Psmith guy?
If what Hamas really wanted was uniterrupted supply routes to the GS it wouldn't have attacked the border crossing terminals regularly.
That may be the truth, pertaining to your final statement, but it isn't realistic and as a truth it finds itself extremely limited by the realities of the situation, region and world politics. When that is taken into consideration it then becomes no truth at all. Not because it isn't right, but because it will never and can never happen.
As far as I know, there is nothing stopping Palestinians from integrating into Israeli society. They are free to practice their religion, they enjoy the same basic principles of freedom that Jews living in Israel do (security issues taken into consideration). In fact, many Palestinians have done exactly this.
The problem as I see it, and I think you will agree is that Israel holds all the cards, on top of that, elements within both factions will never accept a two state solution. Right now the radical Arabs are the ones causing problems, but this is more a function of Israel being in control and as such their radicals are content. The assassination of Rabin is an example of Jewish radicals taking action.
Historically, and contemporarily a two state solution is impossible, it is too easy for radicals to undermine such delicate peace talks. Integration into Israel is the only real solution, with time it could be hoped that as more and more Palestinians integrate the Palestinian radicals will slowly but surely have their strength eroded.
There is no short term solution and even a long term solution is tenuous at best. However Israel is in ascendancy, they hold the power and the cards. Ultimately the Palestinian people will have to acknowledge this fact and adapt because short of a Pan-Arab league invading Israel, occupying it and forcibly evicting all Jews (assuming they would win) this conflict will never end.
This may be a hard way to look at the situation, it might be an unpopular way of viewing it but I will stand by it being a realistic way of looking at it.
How would you integrate Palestinians into Israeli society? Their building walls to keep them away. I am also pretty sure this situation would never be accepted even by the most moderate Israeli, seeing they would be in a minority pretty soon. Plus the fact there's been too much animosity to last centuries. Two state solution is the only option.
Israel do hold financial, and military power, but I am willing to wager everything and say peace trumps both power and military might for Israel, and for that they will both have to come to their senses and make sacrifices.
Edited
I also rate the power of understatement highly! Cynicism is, of course, the only sane way to view human affairs, as they are seldom, if ever, pretty on an international level.
Good post though.
boom boom
on a serious note I have sympathy for both peoples - unfortunately the people that govern them are shite
People usually get the governments they deserve, i fear.
The Athenian city state preceded Philip of Macedon and his megalomaniac offspring by a century or two.
Depends where you identify the basis of western values and culture as representing 'our' civilisation.
THE ELON PEACE INITIATIVE
A Seven Part Comprehensive Plan
Toward Peace in the Middle East
1. Government Leadership: declare the Palestinian Authority an Enemy of the Jewish State.
2. Military Action: Destroy the Terror Infrastructure by removing every terrorist, weapon and bomb factory from Judea, Samaria & Gaza.
3. Nullify, in its entirety, the Oslo Accords and dismantle the Palestinian Authority.
4. Following the cessation of hostilities, negotiations will commence under international auspices to solve the refugee problem through the relocation of displaced Arabs to Arab countries and the dismantling of refugee camps.
5. Acceptance of two countries for two people on two sides of the Jordan. The Jordanian/Palestinian state with Amman as its capital, and the Jewish state with Jerusalem as its capital.
6. Arabs remaining in Judea, Samaria & Gaza will become citizens of the Jordanian/Palestinian state. Arab Palestinians holding Israeli Citizenship will be offered alternate citizenship in the Jordanian/Palestinian state.
7. If the Arabs of Judea, Samaria & Gaza breach the terms of this plan, they will be expelled to their state on the other side of the Jordan River.