The Higher Education Thread | First University with £18k pa fees to open

[MikeUpNorth]

Sorry, so you'd have let RBS and Lloyds go under? Not even the most laissez-faire capitalist economists have suggesting doing that.

I agree that the banking system needs re-organising, and international financial regulation needs a complete overhaul, but allowing huge banks to fail and take the economy with them was not an option.

 

[Fitzjames]

The fees protest is all about getting kids from deprived and dysfunctional families into University.
Like Charles Windsor "Prince Charles"......the first in his family to go to University......Cambridge even and get a 2:2 in Anthropology.
Upping the fees would mean that people like Charles could not go Uni.
And he would have no prospects in Life.

The students were protesting people like Charles.
I am sure he is totally behind the students.

The speed with which the graffiti was removed is bad news for anyone who has a Bankys work of art on the wall.
Obviously the usual suspects will be annoyed about the Churchill thing. And the Cenotaph thing.
And a different set of usual suspects will not care less.

 

[Mick1991]

The one thing that get's me is from personal experience that students that really need the help and simply can't afford to continue with third level education because of the rises stay away because of shite like this.

Instead you have a bunch of posh hobnobs who take up the 'cause' and think they have a right to do whatever they like even though mammy and daddy will be paying and looking after them.

 

[rednev]

In relation to the topic of this thread. I don't really see how charging people unsustainable amounts of money for their own education counts as a spending cut?

If anything it'll amount to an unnecessary increase.

The reason the fees are going up is to plug the funding gap that will result from government cuts in university funding.

 

[Commadus]

Sorry, so you'd have let RBS and Lloyds go under? Not even the most laissez-faire capitalist economists have suggesting doing that.

I agree that the banking system needs re-organising, and international financial regulation needs a complete overhaul, but allowing huge banks to fail and take the economy with them was not an option.

I would have separated their lending business from their depository role.

What happened was the rampant speculation that gripped the markets. The markets were quite happy to go along with the bull that these loans would be paid back - anyone with an ounce of sense would have questioned that but as money was being made nothing was done.

Suddenly banks were needing to go to credit markets to get more loans and now the speculation hit hard. Banks capital structure was at threat but this did not need a full Government bailout keeping the rotten instiutions intact.

The market was happy to feed off the crazy lending but when it was trying to correct itself that should be stopped?

The economy would not have tanked WE need to get one thing clear - the economy is the real side of the economy producing goods and services and the banks live off that because the Government has given them exclusive right to create money - (read about bank money multiplier).

With the banks we put the cart before the horse.

 

[noodlehair]

The reason the fees are going up is to plug the funding gap that will result from government cuts in university funding.

Yeah, so it's not a cut in spending...it's just obtaining the money through a different and more difficult to manage means...not to mention an obviously less fair one.

 

[Commadus]

Yeah, so it's not a cut in spending...it's just obtaining the money through a different and more difficult to manage means...not to mention an obviously less fair one.

The government is cutting its funding to Universities and now expects the shortfall to be met by students.

I wonder how this will pan out - University closures?

 

[MikeUpNorth]

Suddenly banks were needing to go to credit markets to get more loans and now the speculation hit hard. Banks capital structure was at threat but this did not need a full Government bailout keeping the rotten instiutions intact.

I absolutely agree that the bail out conditions should have allowed for the government to restructure the banks and impose sanctions as appropriate, but the need for a bail out was immediate.

The market was happy to feed off the crazy lending but when it was trying to correct itself that should be stopped?

It's never going to correct itself. If the banks were to go under, the profits have already been siphoned off in bonuses and other dividend payments, it's still the public which takes the hit.

The only way to fix the system is by strict regulation, transparency, and increased taxes on banks and the way in which they reward bankers.

The economy would not have tanked WE need to get one thing clear - the economy is the real side of the economy producing goods and services and the banks live off that because the Government has given them exclusive right to create money - (read about bank money multiplier).

With the banks we put the cart before the horse.

The economy would have tanked had the banks gone under. Where do you think the real economy gets its money from to invest? Who's going to buy their products if everyone's lost their savings?

 

[TheReligion]

Bullies. The lot of them. That includes you TheReligion.

You have caught me out!

 

[peterstorey]

The banks could have defaulted on the liabilities from the US since those instruments were effectively fraudulent. The problem is that the finance industry is supranational and practically above the law.

 

[noodlehair]

The government is cutting its funding to Universities and now expects the shortfall to be met by students.

I wonder how this will pan out - University closures?

Eventually perhaps, but not before you've got thousands of people in 30K+ of debt, with nothing to show for it other than a plastic degree which is probably worth about half that.

and then what, just turn round and tell people that if they can't afford it up front they don't get to go in the first place?

 

[Kaos]

Disabled journalist pulled from wheelchair by riot police | Robert Stewart

 

[ERICSAGOD]

Apprenticeships are very limited in their availability. Also what your saying is, don't try to live your dreams and just accept your position in life

Let's face it, very, very few are going ''to live their dream''.

They'll graduate with some non-sensical degree that no-one wants, and they'll end up massively in debt, working in a call centre.

 

[Gambit]

Let's face it, very, very few are going ''to live their dream''.

They'll graduate with some non-sensical degree that no-one wants, and they'll end up massively in debt, working in a call centre.

So we should just accept we're not meant to be try for something better. Sod the med school, sod the lives I may have saved, cleaner it is.

 

[Silva]

They should force banks to subsidise all student fees as a first step to their repayments to the economy. They can stop paying student fees once the taxman has no shares left in the bank.

 

[Red Defence]

It definitely IS right that those that cause the damage should pay for it but they are poor students and have no money.

Then they'll have to get a job and work until it's paid off.

I fully sympathise with these students and the reason they are protesting....left up to me they wouldn't have to anything pay at all for their education.

But I have zero tolerance with anyone who causes deliberate damage and destruction.

 

[Drifter]

Disabled journalist pulled from wheelchair by riot police | Robert Stewart

Disgraceful.There are quite a few thugs in the police force to.Accept they've got the licence to crack heads

 

[PhilipB]

Did no one else think the Prince Charles and Camilla thing was hilarious?

 

[Marching]

Then they'll have to get a job and work until it's paid off.

I fully sympathise with these students and the reason they are protesting....left up to me they wouldn't have to anything pay at all for their education.

But I have zero tolerance with anyone who causes deliberate damage and destruction.

Don't be silly How do you expect them to study, riot, sorry, protest and hold down a job?

 

[Nick 0208 Ldn]

Disabled journalist pulled from wheelchair by riot police | Robert Stewart

The first incident sounds potentially excusable IMO, the second one could present more of a problem.

 

[F-Red]

Disgraceful for the guy in the wheelchair, but what was he doing by the front line in the first place? Surely peaceful protestors keep away from that front line?

 

[Marching]

I'd have expected photos of this dragging him out of the wheelchair rather than just one of him in it and another of it being folded up.

As someone on the blog said....it's a miracle.

 

[Kaos]

From the wheelchair fellas blog:

Life on Wheels | One man's journey on the path to revolution…

"From the corner of my eye, I spotted one of the policemen from the earlier incident. He recognised me immediately. Officer KF936 came charging towards me. Tipping the wheelchair to the side, he pushed me onto the concrete, before grabbing my arms and dragging me across the road. The crowd of 200 ran and surrounded him. I got back up and stood in front of the horses."

Kid suffers from Cerebral Palsy..

 

[iSparky]

Sorry where exactly are the pics of this bloke being forcefully pulled from his wheelchair? And if he was a peaceful protestor what was he doing at the police line? His brother says he was removed from his wheelchair and then the disabled rights group say he has been "unlawfully beaten up" unless there is a pic of him being forcefully dragged from the chair i am not inclined to believe it, feck me all the sob stories are going to start coming out now methinks....

 

[Nick 0208 Ldn]

And if we assume that he was either on his own account or being used in a hostile/obstructive fashion in the front ranks, it would pose a greater difficulty to the police than would a person standing up.

Without further evidence or independent verification we can only speculate as to the motives of both sides on each occasion.

There were plenty of TV cameras about yesterday, i am surprised that the earlier incident never appeared on such coverage. The officers involved would know that if handled wrongly it would be a magnet for controversy and disciplinary action, so you can't see them rushing mob handed into it.

 

[Kaos]

Sorry where exactly are the pics of this bloke being forcefully pulled from his wheelchair? And if he was a peaceful protestor what was he doing at the police line? His brother says he was removed from his wheelchair and then the disabled rights group say he has been "unlawfully beaten up" unless there is a pic of him being forcefully dragged from the chair i am not inclined to believe it, feck me all the sob stories are going to start coming out now methinks....

How could he be a violent protester if he suffers from a motor condition and is wheelchair bound? Not having pictures taken doesn't necessarily mean it didn't happen. There was a picture showing him being forcefully lifted from his wheelchair, and other accounts also say he was dragged along the concrete.

 

[CircusMonkey]

I was standing on the front line, equipped with militant T shirt, holding my Anti-imperialism slogan placard. Only for me to realise i was at the wrong protest and in fact i hated bloody students, so i decided to emphasise this by spraying a picture of a giant cock on the wall of the nearest Barclay's bank.
After this i was left with a slight sense of guilt,after looking around and seeing the numerous people who had traveled a far distance in hope of getting a serious point across through peaceful demonstration. But somehow i managed to suppress these feeling's with another impressive picture of a cock complete with matching bollocks, only this time the Natwest was the target for my revolutionary expression.

 

[Marching]

And if we assume that he was either on his own account or being used in a hostile/obstructive fashion in the front ranks, it would pose a greater difficulty to the police than would a person standing up.

Without further evidence or independent verification we can only speculate as to the motives of both sides on each occasion.

There were plenty of TV cameras about yesterday, i am surprised that the earlier incident never appeared on such coverage.

He even says...."I found that the picture of me being pulled from my wheelchair had been creating a bit of a storm online."...on his blog. So where is this photo?

Can you imagine its value to the cause.

 

[iSparky]

How could he be a violent protester if he suffers from a motor condition and is wheelchair bound? Not having pictures taken doesn't necessarily mean it didn't happen. There was a picture showing him being forcefully lifted from his wheelchair, and other accounts also say he was dragged along the concrete.

I never said he was violent, at all! I said what was he doing at the police line? If there were people snapping pics did they just decide to stop while he was supposedly being dragged along the ground? I highly doubt it can you imagine the chaos it would cause? And rightly so! So where are these pics?

 

[Dave89]

I was sympathetic, until I was caught up in jam that turned a lot of belfast into a car park yesterday. Had it been my decision then, I would have made it £20k a year.

All Norn Irish MPs voted against it too, stupid students.

 

[SmashedHombre]

Yes, the whole of the Met Police Service are to blame because of one officer in Bath.

Bloody hell

The feck?

Er, ok since we seem to be playing weird hypothetical games where we jump to pointless conclusions so we can form half-arsed sarcastic comments with absolutely no bearing on the actual discussion itself, let's all join in.

Yes, the whole student community is to blame because of 0.01% of them causing trouble.

Bloody hell

Well... that wasn't as fun as I hoped it would be.

 

[Mozza]

Its our own fault Noodle for voting in Labour who has essentially crippled our country financially with their wild over spending.

Debt as a percentage of GDP was lower under labout then Thatcher, the wild growth in debt happend after the financial crises caused by private enterprise

 

[Ubik]

This is worrying, on both sides -

I just got home after attending the embers of the protest at the end of Victoria Street. While there I got chatting to a 17year-old girl. A while later a group of people who I believe to be neo-Nazis turned up and started causing trouble. They were trying to start on an old man of about 60. A policeman calmed him down. They then started picking on this girl. They all started to scream "cnut!" at her and she called them this back. The group (about 12-15) walked up to her in a very menacing way. We backed off towards the police and then one of the group pushed the girl violently in the head, causing her to fall down on her back. I pulled her away to the police and asked for help. Two of them smirked at each other and one said: "You wanted free speech." They then continued to watch as the neo-Nazis caused trouble. This occurred at around 7pm.

11.34am entry Tuition fees protests and Charles and Camilla attack aftermath

 

[Red Defence]

Don't be silly How do you expect them to study, riot, sorry, protest and hold down a job?

I don't, that's too much for any individual. They'll have to forgo the rest and just stick to the job.

Only until their debt is paid of course, then they can go back to rioti...sorry protesting.

 

[Commadus]

I absolutely agree that the bail out conditions should have allowed for the government to restructure the banks and impose sanctions as appropriate, but the need for a bail out was immediate.



It's never going to correct itself. If the banks were to go under, the profits have already been siphoned off in bonuses and other dividend payments, it's still the public which takes the hit.

The only way to fix the system is by strict regulation, transparency, and increased taxes on banks and the way in which they reward bankers.



The economy would have tanked had the banks gone under. Where do you think the real economy gets its money from to invest? Who's going to buy their products if everyone's lost their savings?

herein lies the rub and not sure you got my point - re bank money mutiplier effect and the role of money. We use fiat money in our system its backed by nothing other than a promise. Money has value because of the faith we put in it.

You need to understand how money is created and that the government could reinflate the economy - printing notes is nothing special.

 

[Kaos]

Those of you interested:

Lib Dem MPs who voted against the plans

Annette Brooke (Dorset Mid & Poole North), Sir Menzies Campbell (Fife North East), Michael Crockart (Edinburgh West), Tim Farron (Westmorland & Lonsdale), Andrew George (St Ives), Mike Hancock (Portsmouth South), Julian Huppert (Cambridge), Charles Kennedy (Ross, Skye & Lochaber), John Leech (Manchester Withington), Stephen Lloyd (Eastbourne), Greg Mulholland (Leeds North West), John Pugh (Southport), Alan Reid (Argyll & Bute), Dan Rogerson (Cornwall North), Bob Russell (Colchester), Adrian Sanders (Torbay), Ian Swales (Redcar), Mark Williams (Ceredigion), Roger Williams (Brecon and Radnorshire), Jenny Willott (Cardiff Central), and Simon Wright (Norwich South).

Lib Dem MPs who voted for the plans

Danny Alexander (Inverness, Nairn, Badenoch and Strathspey), Norman Baker (Lewes), Sir Alan Beith (Berwick-upon-Tweed), Gordon Birtwistle (Burnley), Tom Brake (Carshalton & Wallington), Jeremy Browne (Taunton Deane), Malcolm Bruce (Gordon), Paul Burstow (Sutton & Cheam), Vincent Cable (Twickenham), Alistair Carmichael (Orkney & Shetland), Nick Clegg (Sheffield Hallam), Edward Davey (Kingston & Surbiton), Lynne Featherstone (Hornsey & Wood Green), Don Foster (Bath), Stephen Gilbert (St Austell and Newquay), Duncan Hames (Chippenham), Nick Harvey (Devon North), David Heath (Somerton & Frome), John Hemming (Birmingham Yardley), Norman Lamb (Norfolk North), David Laws (Yeovil), Michael Moore (Berwickshire, Roxburgh & Selkirk), Andrew Stunell (Hazel Grove), Jo Swinson (Dunbartonshire East), Sarah Teather (Brent Central), David Ward (Bradford East), and Steve Webb (Thornbury and Yate).

Lib Dems who did not vote

The energy secretary Chris Huhne and backbencher Martin Horwood, who were in Cancún for climate change talks, were among those who did not vote. Sir Robert Smith (Aberdeenshire West and Kincardine) was also out of the country.

Lib Dems who abstained

Lorely Burt (Solihull), Martin Horwood (Cheltenham), Simon Hughes (Bermondsey & Old Southwark), Chris Huhne (Eastleigh), Tessa Munt (Wells), Sir Robert Smith (Aberdeenshire West and Kincardine), John Thurso (Caithness, Sutherland & Easter Ross), and Stephen Williams (Bristol West).

Government whip Mark Hunter (Cheadle) acted as a teller.

Tory MPs who voted against

David Davis (Haltemprice and Howden), Philip Davies (Shipley), Julian Lewis (New Forest East), Jason McCartney (Colne Valley), Andrew Percy (Brigg and Goole), Mark Reckless (Rochester and Strood)

Tory MPs who abstained

Tracey Crouch (Chatham and Aylesford), Lee Scott (Ilford North)

 

[F-Red]

They should force banks to subsidise all student fees as a first step to their repayments to the economy. They can stop paying student fees once the taxman has no shares left in the bank.

Students should pay for their own education.

 

[Kaos]

Students should pay for their own education.

Bankers should be held to account, but it doesnt happen.

Education is also a right, Banker's bonuses aren't.

 

[onlyoneunited]

Absolutely digusting behavior by the protestors last night. Sure they have a legitimate right to peaceful protest but you can see from the start they never wanted that. Why bring face masks, hard hats, paint bombs, golf balls and snooker balls if you are coming for a peaceful protest, I'm sorry but i call bullshit. It was obvious from the start that a load of the students wanted to kick off, if only from what student union people were saying the night before.

I just saw one of the leaders of the protests saying that the kettling kicked the whole thing off, obviously he wasn't watching the live footage of the events as they unfolded then as it was a group of green helmeted students that kicked things off by trying to throw barriers at the police. The guy then goes on to say that there will be more clashes and encouraging students to wear hard hats, what kind of message is that sending out there and how is that not inciting the students to violence further?

And i'm sorry but I don't give a shit how angry the students are, they have no right to cause property damage and deface the statue of Churchill and the dessicrate the Cenotaph.

Just proves one thing, students these days feel they are entitled to everything, have no respect for anything and don't appreciate how priviledged they are to have an education in the first place. There was even a banner stating "we are not your slaves", i mean wtf how stupid is that.

 

[Nick 0208 Ldn]

Tuition fee protests: Charlie Gilmour, son of Pink Floyd guitarist David Gilmour, apologises for climbing Cenotaph - Telegraph