Sams already said that the opinion of the 'victim' isn't important so long as the elimination of prejudice is being pursued.
Because of who? Gray and Keyes? Get real mate it was a private conversation leaked to the media. They never intended to humiliate the girl in public yet the person/people at SKY who leaked the recordings obviously didn't give a f*** about the impact it had on Massey's career.
Keys & Gray in Sexism Row
- Thread starter phelans shorts
- Start date
I take back everything I've said. Anyone who says those exact words should be sacked immediately.....like, right now. And booed on their way out Davina.
Told you I was a hypocrite
I listened to Richaard Keys interview.
Its probably wrong to link them together. In their strange relationship Andy Gray is the Alpha Male Dog and Keys is the puppy wagging his tail.
Its probably wrong to treat them exactly the same.
Keys is a broadcaster/journalist.
Gray is a football man and a broadcaster.
Keys has more to lose.
Gray can still make a career out of after dinner speaking on political correctness gone mad at all male sports dinners.
Hard to see Keys fully recovering. There has always been an aspect of Alan Partridge about Keys. Its easy to see him checking into a Premier Inn and getting a job as the night host on Radio Norwich and pitching "Monkey Tennis" to producers.
Therefore showing up at Jacobs/Hawksbee was a good move. His claim that he has no spin doctor might be weakened by the appearance of alerted TV cameras (Talksport might be responsible) and it was a good choice as an hour long.....no editing and live.
But it was a mixed bag. Let Sian Massey get on with doing her job. He seemed to mean it. He was dead right about the Suns "Get Them Off " headline and it would be a shame if Sian Massey became an unwilling celeb.
Frankly if Sian Massey cant have a career in football.......then Gray and Keys dont deserve one either.
His reference to "dark forces" seemed paranoid but clearly the fact that Gray was already in litigation with News of the World over phone hacking MUST be a problem. Yet theres a pattern here
Keys claimed that what they said on air....support for Ms Massey was actually their real feelings and the off air comments were not their true feelings. Sorry Richard that makes no sense......what is said off record is usually the more accurate.
And theres a pattern......Keys claimed there were behavioural issues......hinting I think he needs "therapy"........maybe finding God would help (but hes not american) and theres the steady drip drip effect of more and more dodgy videos.
Keys problem is that he attached himself to Grays "star" and is paying the price for never being his own man.
Its probably wrong to link them together. In their strange relationship Andy Gray is the Alpha Male Dog and Keys is the puppy wagging his tail.
Its probably wrong to treat them exactly the same.
Keys is a broadcaster/journalist.
Gray is a football man and a broadcaster.
Keys has more to lose.
Gray can still make a career out of after dinner speaking on political correctness gone mad at all male sports dinners.
Hard to see Keys fully recovering. There has always been an aspect of Alan Partridge about Keys. Its easy to see him checking into a Premier Inn and getting a job as the night host on Radio Norwich and pitching "Monkey Tennis" to producers.
Therefore showing up at Jacobs/Hawksbee was a good move. His claim that he has no spin doctor might be weakened by the appearance of alerted TV cameras (Talksport might be responsible) and it was a good choice as an hour long.....no editing and live.
But it was a mixed bag. Let Sian Massey get on with doing her job. He seemed to mean it. He was dead right about the Suns "Get Them Off " headline and it would be a shame if Sian Massey became an unwilling celeb.
Frankly if Sian Massey cant have a career in football.......then Gray and Keys dont deserve one either.
His reference to "dark forces" seemed paranoid but clearly the fact that Gray was already in litigation with News of the World over phone hacking MUST be a problem. Yet theres a pattern here
Keys claimed that what they said on air....support for Ms Massey was actually their real feelings and the off air comments were not their true feelings. Sorry Richard that makes no sense......what is said off record is usually the more accurate.
And theres a pattern......Keys claimed there were behavioural issues......hinting I think he needs "therapy"........maybe finding God would help (but hes not american) and theres the steady drip drip effect of more and more dodgy videos.
Keys problem is that he attached himself to Grays "star" and is paying the price for never being his own man.
I also find a slight bit of hypocrisy but bringing it up as a defense for Gray and Keys actions is asinine. And that was my point.
This is a point I made yesterday. Its funny that she has no problems working for 2 men who have been top dogs in Britains Porn industry since the 60's and 70's. One of them founded the Sunday Sport FFS. The sleaziest crappiest wastes of paper ever created.
That and all her revealling pics from a few years ago
Sexist, just because these women choose (as is their right) to wear bikini's while they play their sport doesn't mean that they are Porn Stars, they are highly skilled athletes and deserving of our respect. The fact that you denigrate their work reveals the misogynist that lurks within you. SHAME.
So you stand over what you say?
Its ok if you do stuff in your own house, but not allowed in work place.
Double standards my friend. You've been found out to be a fraud
Yeah I dont remember putting it forward in their defence either, so I'm afraid I'm lost as to your point.
Well I thought it was a joke which credited the ability of the putative women involved - they knew something fergie didn't and were therefore presumably doing their jobs well and deserving of praise.you really are reading way too much into a clear joke comment.
Rather the direct opposite of Gray's entrenched views of female officials.
Maybe, just maybe ,the people who they worked with were sick to the back teeth of their moronic comments. We have no way of finding out whether this was a regular occurence or not.
I personally think sacking them is a bit harsh but they must have known that comments like that wouldnt be taken well if they became public (which they did) and so must face the consequences.
Do you think that an MP would be spared his job if he was heard to be saying things like that even in private?
I just see men like that as sad, leery old pervs.
Good luck with that.
So would your position be that Sky should have taken strong action without the need for prior publicity?
True and this quote:
'Footballers are only interested in drinking, clothes and the size of their willies.'
Karen Brady.
Yep well done Karen, that's all male footballers think about.
The question is would they have?
Thinking entirely objectively and independently, based on the record of their behaviour, both Keys & Gray should have been sacked (probably years ago - although we don't have THAT evidence to hand).
Yes, hypocrisy of people or organisations taking the moral high ground is totally irrelevant.
Thats even more interesting.
Your confusion of moral highground and legal issues is noted. Once it came to light, they had no choice but to suspend and then to fire or open Sky up to a lawsuit.
This was obviously a legal issue. Unless you don't have sexual harrassment laws over there, which I wouldn't doubt based on this thread.
One of those subjected to a gratuitous sexist remark in the first-released audio was very much offended, and rightly, Karen Brady.
I don't like the woman but to hear herself dismissed by such an unconsciously ironic utterance would not be pleasant. Anyone supporting Keys' (?) right to say that has serious issues.
The 'banter' defence has serious flaws - it tries to draw on 'crowd banter' where one group can respond to the other - but this is just odious men enjoying making demeaning & derogatory remarks about women. Sexism and misogyniy are what they are, no matter how expressed It does not surprise me that many other football fans think such behaviour is almost normal.
'Football institutionally racist' - well, duh!
Ha, didn't Karen Brady openly admit to employer discrimination when hiring senior management at Birmingham? She is no better than any male sexist in fact she is their female equal.
Good - Him and Grey should be signed up by ESPN They are a package.
As it stands SKY Sports can go feck themselves
Sorry I don't buy that. Firing the person after the event doesn't limit their legal responsibility towards him while he was employed, it would only limit any further legal responsibility, so a suspension would be adequate as they've done with the others involved.
Also from a legal standpoint there are separate issues, the legal situation in relation to the incident Charlotte is different to that of the one with the ref as she is employed by Sky. They are also totally different legal issues, workplace sexual harassment in the case of Charlotte (for which would be very hard to prove culpability on their part unless they had failed to act on a complaint) as opposed to god knows what in the case of the ref.
Which begs the question - which came first? The story or the demand for the story?
The media always claim "public interest" whenever they run a story that delves in to someone's private life, but if the story was never published would the public be clamouring for it? I doubt it.
Maybe, just maybe a nasty piece of work didn't get promoted and decided to make a fool of Sky Sports and their 2 anchor men.
He has no right to question the merits of her complaining about sexual harassment?
While what he said is very patronising sexist in itself, I'd hardly call saying 'do me a favour, love' as a gratuitous sexist remark, thats a bit sensationalist.
It's never a private issue in the forum it was done in.
Television and professional sports.
Never going to be private. Ever.
It's a reasonable question wrt to Sky as an organisation and its policies - though it appears that something of a sea-change may have occured with the management change and ultimately they had the chance to 'do the right thing' - then again - they may have been forced into it by someone who was frustrated that nothing concrete had still been done...
...Or 67 other variants.
I don't think it really affects whether they deserved punishment though.
And just like that, The S*n went and reminded us that there are far worse scum in the media than Keys and Gray.
Lowlife in every sense.
Just skim read through twitter and 58 minutes ago someone claimed Keys was to resign 'within the hour'...
In context, you yourself, (no PC bleeding-heart) label it 'patronising sexist' - so you could comfortably add a few notches onto that in trying to judge how the more enlightened (
) might view it. Football as an environment is blatantly and obviously sexist (eg so many posts in this thread) - as a working environment there is no real reason to expect any better. Automatic assumptions that women cannot know anything about football (shared by most on the terraces we are told) just is a demeaning sexist view. Dismissing legitimate concerns about that sexism in a 'there, there, don't worry your little head about that you poor confused female' manner is a real exemplar for the entrenched nature of the problem.
Since Keys' remark wasn't in any sense 'required', I would certainly label it gratuitous - and it's blatantly a sexist view being expressed, whilst attempting to deny its very existence.
So: 'gratuitous' & 'sexist' sound like good descriptions tbh.
It doesn't but it does put into question whether the punishment would have been as severe.
Ridiculous. Usually think hes a useless cnut but this witch hunt is making me develop sympathy for him. He has no need to resign, and he won't get sacked, he isn't the one suing the NOTW after all.
If they'd been in my organisations they'd have been sacked via the usual warning/disciplinary procedure ages ago I reckon - without the need for any media pressure.
End of an era. I couldn't care less what prejudices they hold, they are better at their jobs than anyone on rival channels.
...and in good news for all reactionary misogynists reading this...
According to the Guardian the FA have been inundated with calls from women...
...most wanting to know how to become officials.
The article suggests they are mostly looking forward to proving dinosaurs like Keys & Gray wrong.
According to the Guardian the FA have been inundated with calls from women...
...most wanting to know how to become officials.
The article suggests they are mostly looking forward to proving dinosaurs like Keys & Gray wrong.
Thats just selective interpretation, we can all do that.In context, you yourself, (no PC bleeding-heart) label it 'patronising sexist' - so you could comfortably add a few notches onto that in trying to judge how the more enlightened (
Football as an environment is blatantly and obviously sexist (eg so many posts in this thread) - as a working environment there is no real reason to expect any better. Automatic assumptions that women cannot know anything about football (shared by most on the terraces we are told) just is a demeaning sexist view. Dismissing legitimate concerns about that sexism in a 'there, there, don't worry your little head about that you poor confused female' manner is a real exemplar for the entrenched nature of the problem.
Since Keys' remark wasn't in any sense 'required', I would certainly label it gratuitous - and it's blatantly a sexist view being expressed, whilst attempting to deny its very existence.
So: 'gratuitous' & 'sexist' sound like good descriptions tbh.
(Not that I want to defend the comments but) I could say, they were talking about a female linesmen, and then referenced Karen Brady complaining about sexism. The 'do me a favour love' comment could be taken to have been him intimating that the presence of a female linesman was in itself disproving her point.... not saying any of that would have been true but its another selective interpretation, and nowhere near as damning as yours.