Manchester United 1:2 Arsenal

iBoss · Mar 8, 2015

peterstorey said:
Be careful what you wish for...

Charlie Foley · Mar 8, 2015

Mikael Silvestre compared the teams today vs those in the 2005 final: De Gea and di Maria are the only players not from the 2005 final to get in the combined United team. Silvestre also includes himself, but gives no mention to himself in the article :lol:

For Arsenal, only Koscielny and Sanchez from 2015 make it.

Man Utd v Arsenal: Which current players would get in 2005 teams?

Ten years ago current FA Cup holders Arsenal beat Manchester United on penalties to lift the trophy after a goalless encounter at Cardiff's Millennium Stadium.

The two great rivals - and most successful sides in the competition with 11 victories apiece - meet again at Old Trafford on Monday in the quarter-finals, a match being shown live on BBC One and the BBC Sport website.

But which of the players in the current sides, if any, would get into the formidable 2005 Cup final starting line-ups?

Former Manchester United and Arsenal defender Mikael Silvestre, who played for United against the Gunners in the 2005 final before a two-year spell with Arsenal from 2008, picks his combined starting XIs.

Manchester United
2005 starting XI: Roy Carroll; Wes Brown, Rio Ferdinand, Mikael Silvestre, John O'Shea; Darren Fletcher, Roy Keane, Paul Scholes, Cristiano Ronaldo; Wayne Rooney, Ruud van Nistelrooy.

2015 starting XI (possible): David De Gea; Antonio Valencia, Phil Jones, Marcos Rojo, Luke Shaw; Daley Blind, Michael Carrick, Ashley Young, Angel Di Maria, Wayne Rooney, Radamel Falcao.

Arsenal
2005 starting XI: Jens Lehmann; Lauren, Kolo Toure, Philippe Senderos, Ashley Cole; Patrick Vieira, Gilberto Silva, Cesc Fabregas, Robert Pires; Jose Antonio Reyes, Dennis Bergkamp.

2015 starting XI (probable): David Ospina, Hector Bellerin, Laurent Koscielny, Per Mertesacker, Kieran Gibbs; Francis Coquelin, Aaron Ramsey, Santi Cazorla, Mezut Ozil; Alexis Sanchez, Olivier Giroud.

Goalkeepers: 'Lehmann unsettled the opposition'
Man Utd: The keepers have one job to do: save the ball. David De Gea has done that this season. He has saved quite a few results for United, which is why he would replace Roy Carroll. Even United's second choice Victor Valdes would have made the 2005 team.

Tim Howard was on the bench in 2005 and he should have been given more time at the club, he was still young. I was surprised to see him go to Everton in such a sudden way. The gaffer, Sir Alex Ferguson, took the decision based on performances and that was it for Tim.

Lehmann (right) was a source of irritation to opposition players, as shown here against Man Utd

Arsenal: Jens Lehmann's main strengths were his character and what he brought to the team. He was loud and had a presence in goal. Goalkeepers are far away from the action and they need to guide the team and he did that.

He brought confidence to the back four and was unbeaten in his first 49 games at the club, a run which we ended with a 2-0 win. He was good at playing on the opposition's mind - he was irritating and unsettled them. That was new to some Premier League players and they didn't like it.

Defence: Rio brings balance; 'Kos' a perfect fit
Man Utd: Luke Shaw is still young and learning so John O'Shea at the time would have been in front of him. The versatility of players such as Wes Brown and John was good for the team.

In central defence, Rio Ferdinand was so calm and composed. He read the game so well and his technique was superb. There is no panic from him and that is what you need at the back. If the defence is shaky, it brings negativity to the whole team. Rio's main attribute was bringing a balance to the side.

Ferdinand won six Premier League titles, one FA Cup, two league Cups and a Champions League

Current defenders Phil Jones, Chris Smalling and Jonny Evans should all have stepped up by now and imposed themselves on the first team. When you see someone like Marcos Rojo showing authority, those three are not doing that in their game. They are also very fragile - in and out with injuries - and that is frustrating for themselves and the manager.

Arsenal: Laurent Koscielny would start in place of Philippe Senderos. 'Kos' is Arsenal's best defender at the moment. The Frenchman is a good reader of the game, pretty good in the air and his all-round game is excellent. To play at Arsenal, you need to be good on the ball at the back. His mentality, vision and passing range makes him a perfect fit.

Lauren, Ashley Cole and Kolo Toure had great athleticism and Arsenal have always been an attacking team. Cole and Lauren bombed forward all the time but they were very good defenders too. They had a good balance within their own game. They knew when to go forward and when to stay back. All three were good in one-on-one situations too.

Midfield: 'Zola and Keane in one'; Warrior Vieira
Man Utd: Roy Keane was a constant leader on the field, no matter what type of game we played. Even in training, he was driven by his determination. He had the passion and desire to win and had all the attributes of a leader, by voice and by performances.

His central midfield partner Paul Scholes was Gianfranco Zola and Keane in one. He could produce magic in attack and score goals. He was very good technically, had a superb passing range and was a very good finisher. Even though he was small, he was strong in the tackle. As the English say, he was as hard as nails.

Roy Keane and Patrick Vieira fought many tussles in United-Arsenal matches down the years

You could tell Cristiano Ronaldo's potential straight away. After a few months at the club, I told him, 'One day you will be the best player in the world'. He just smiled. What can you say to that?

I would choose Angel Di Maria in place of Darren Fletcher. Di Maria is world class and such an exciting player.

Arsenal: Arsenal have been missing a Gilberto Silva or Vieira-style player for a long time. Alex Song left to join Barcelona and Abou Diaby has not developed. They haven't got someone protecting the back four.

When you have a back four protected by a Vieira or Gilberto, there is little the opposition can do. Patrick brought a dimension and presence. He was a warrior, a box-to-box player.

Cesc Fabregas brought the attacking flair. He was only 18 in the final but already had the game. He had great vision and his technique was perfect. He didn't have any fear and brought the freshness about doing things differently.

Robert Pires was vital on the counter-attack. He was very good on the ball, his passing was excellent and was a precious part of the side. Those four would dominate the midfield.

Attack: A Dutch 'screamer' and fearless Chilean
Man Utd: Ruud van Nistelrooy's technique was amazing and one of the best I have seen. He was very talented and a great finisher. He was a proper Dutchman. He wanted the ball all the time and used to scream at Cristiano to pass him the ball so that he could score. As a striker, there is a lot of pressure on your shoulders so you have to be selfish. That is what made him so good.

At the moment, it is too early to drop Wayne Rooney into midfield. When you are a defender, the thing you hate most is a player running in behind you. Wayne still has enough energy to break the line and has an eye for goal. He can do well in midfield but you would rather see him doing the damage up front.

Arsenal: I would pick Alexis Sanchez over Jose Antonio Reyes. The Chilean has made a great start, brings a lot of quality and is not afraid of the challenges.

That was not the case with Reyes. We knew that if we had a go at him, he didn't like it being physical. There were matches where the Spaniard was on Gary Neville's side of the pitch and he took care of him.

Is Olivier Giroud good enough for Arsenal? I think he is. His goal ratio is better than Diego Costa's. The Frenchman has the finishing quality, there is no question about that.

peterstorey · Mar 9, 2015

Yeah but that Arsenal team was the end of the best ever team seen in the PL so it's hardly a surprise.

SonnyTheHaloPro · Mar 9, 2015

peterstorey said:
Yeah but that Arsenal team was the end of the best ever team seen in the PL so it's hardly a surprise.

lol best Prem team ever who couldn't even retain the title.

peterstorey · Mar 9, 2015

They burned short but they burned exceeding bright

Tyrion · Mar 9, 2015

SonnyTheHaloPro said:
lol best Prem team ever who couldn't even retain the title.

I'd say they were a great team that put in the best league campaign in the PL era. They had the best season but were not the best team the league's ever seen. If you're going to say they were the best team, then you have to look at their performances outside of the PL and in the seasons before and after and when you do, it's not as impressive as say the 99 United side.

SonnyTheHaloPro · Mar 9, 2015

Tyrion said:
I'd say they were a great team that put in the best league campaign in the PL era. They had the best season but were not the best team the league's ever seen. If you're going to say they were the best team, then you have to look at their performances outside of the PL and in the seasons before and after and when you do, it's not as impressive as say the 99 United side.

Exactly that Arsenal team couldn't even get past the Quarters in the CL, not to mention that they failed abysmally at defending their title (Which should be the minimum when you talk about greatest ever Prem team)

We don't even need to bring the 99 team into the argument, our 2009 team who achieved a 3 back to back titles would have wiped the floor with the Invincibles imo.

peterstorey · Mar 9, 2015

SonnyTheHaloPro said:
Exactly that Arsenal team couldn't even get past the Quarters in the CL, not to mention that they failed abysmally at defending their title (Which should be the minimum when you talk about greatest ever Prem team)
ere
We don't even need to bring the 99 team into the argument, our 2009 team who achieved a 3 back to back titles would have wiped the floor with the Invincibles imo.

The 99 team were at the same level as ours, Bergkamp missed the pen and you fluked the CL - you just got lucky. 2007-9 etc was all about Ronaldo and piss-poor opposition, Arsenal had no money to compete, City hadn't arrived and Chelsea fecked up.

Tyrion · Mar 9, 2015

peterstorey said:
The 99 team were at the same level as ours, Bergkamp missed the pen and you fluked the CL - you just got lucky. 2007-9 etc was all about Ronaldo and piss-poor opposition, Arsenal had no money to compete, City hadn't arrived and Chelsea fecked up.

You can't fluke a CL win with your 2 best midfielders out in a season where you won your domestic league and cup. It's not like we were mid table and rested our players for CL games and got dodgy referee calls in the final. In every CL campaign there are moments where the eventual winners were under serious pressure and that's why imo it's the hardest competition to win. The great Barca side 09-12 only won 2.

SonnyTheHaloPro · Mar 9, 2015

peterstorey said:
The 99 team were at the same level as ours, Bergkamp missed the pen and you fluked the CL - you just got lucky. 2007-9 etc was all about Ronaldo and piss-poor opposition, Arsenal had no money to compete, City hadn't arrived and Chelsea fecked up.

Haha C'mon dude stop making excuses.

2007-09 was when the PL was at it's height, All of the top 4 had amazing squads filled with top, top players. I can easily reverse it and ask what competition did Arsenal face in 2004? The 1999 team was missing 2 world class midfielders in the final, and given the amount of comebacks that United team made, it was no fluke. Also many people say Arsenals 1998 side was better than the Invincibles.

The only teams that can contest the best ever prem side question is Man Utd 99-01, Man Utd 07-09 and Chelsea 05-07.

Walters_19_MuFc · Mar 9, 2015

Nerves starting to kick in. :nervous:

U99ted · Mar 9, 2015

peterstorey said:
The 99 team were at the same level as ours, Bergkamp missed the pen and you fluked the CL - you just got lucky. 2007-9 etc was all about Ronaldo and piss-poor opposition, Arsenal had no money to compete, City hadn't arrived and Chelsea fecked up.

Liverpool, Arsenal, United and Chelsea reached Champions Leagues finals every year between 2005-09, with 3 semi finalists in 2008 & 2009, plus 2 in 2007.

cyberman · Mar 9, 2015

United rested the best strikeforce in Europe and one 2 of the all time greats in Giggs and Scholes for the semi in 99 v Arsenal and even then they only got past Schmeichel with a deflected shot off Stam.

peterstorey · Mar 9, 2015

Tyrion said:
You can't fluke a CL win with your 2 best midfielders out in a season where you won your domestic league and cup. It's not like we were mid table and rested our players for CL games and got dodgy referee calls in the final. In every CL campaign there are moments where the eventual winners were under serious pressure and that's why imo it's the hardest competition to win. The great Barca side 09-12 only won 2.

Of course you fluked the CL, you were outplayed for about 88 mins in that final.

Alex99 · Mar 9, 2015

peterstorey said:
Yeah but that Arsenal team was the end of the best ever team seen in the PL so it's hardly a surprise.

2 man midfield · Mar 9, 2015

peterstorey said:
Of course you fluked the CL, you were outplayed for about 88 mins in that final.

You were outplayed for 120 in '05. Was that FA cup a fluke?

marukomu · Mar 9, 2015

I dreamt we lost 2-0, but it was different players playing. Does that count?

NoPace · Mar 9, 2015

I'd prefer Herrera to Januzaj on the right in this game if Di Maria or Mata is the 10 and Blind-Carrick start together. We need to win this on the counter and I think Herrera is better suited to that than Januzaj right now.

The Purist · Mar 9, 2015

2 Man Midfield said:
You were outplayed for 120 in '05. Was that FA cup a fluke?

As an Arsenal fan, yeah. We were very lucky that day to the extent the game was almost torturous. Not sure how there is any debate that United were lucky in 1999. Of course you were. We missed a last minute penalty and you were totally outplayed in the CL final on a day where I can't believe you didn't concede more.

If you take into account the quality of individual players then the Arsenal Invincibles team were the best ever in the English top flight within anyone's living memory.This is supported by the Invincibles achievement.

As for this game, if we show up at anything near our best we will win. The only problem is we normally don't tend to do that.

NM · Mar 9, 2015

The Purist said:
As an Arsenal fan, yeah. We were very lucky that day to the extent the game was almost torturous. Not sure how there is any debate that United were lucky in 1999. Of course you were. We missed a last minute penalty and you were totally outplayed in the CL final on a day where I can't believe you didn't concede more.

If you take into account the quality of individual players then the Arsenal Invincibles team were the best ever in the English top flight within anyone's living memory.This is supported by the Invincibles achievement.

United got lucky in 99. Ruud missed a pen in your unbeaten season in the last minute. Don't forget your "Invincibles" lost to English opposition that season. Just not in the league too. Every big title winner has some luck. United weren't any different.

Krovv · Mar 9, 2015

NM said:
United got lucky in 99. Ruud missed a pen in your unbeaten season in the last minute. Don't forget your "Invincibles" lost to English opposition that season. Just not in the league too. Every big title winner has some luck. United weren't any different.

That twat dived to win the penalty. It's a penalty that shouldn't have stood. That game was a fair draw as both sides were evenly matched on the day.

Although Keown trolling Nistelrooy was :lol:

marukomu · Mar 9, 2015

Krovv said:
That twat dived to win the penalty. It's a penalty that shouldn't have stood.

Yeah, I remember Pires doing it to get a 1-1 draw with Portsmouth. Wasn't that in game 6 of the 'Invincible' run?

2 man midfield · Mar 9, 2015

The Purist said:
As an Arsenal fan, yeah. We were very lucky that day to the extent the game was almost torturous. Not sure how there is any debate that United were lucky in 1999. Of course you were. We missed a last minute penalty and you were totally outplayed in the CL final on a day where I can't believe you didn't concede more.

If you take into account the quality of individual players then the Arsenal Invincibles team were the best ever in the English top flight within anyone's living memory.This is supported by the Invincibles achievement.

As for this game, if we show up at anything near our best we will win. The only problem is we normally don't tend to do that.

We were both lucky, just wanted to see if Pete reckons luck and fluking are the same thing.

As for the invincibles being the best ever top flight side, i can't say i agree. In fact i'd have Mourinho's '05 Chelsea side before the Arsenal '04 team. They were just ridiculous. Cech, Terry, Carvalho, Makelale, Essien, Lampard and Drogba? They genuinely had me scratching my head wondering how we were going to catch up.

Archie Leach · Mar 9, 2015

645 am start here. I've taken the day off work.

MyOnlySolskjaer · Mar 9, 2015

Walters_19_MuFc said:
Nerves starting to kick in.

Helps the nerves-...I miss Nani

bosnian_red · Mar 9, 2015

Can't wait for this to start. Biggest game of our season so far. I'm beginning to feel like I'd rather win the fa cup, beating arsenal now and liverpool in the final, and drop out of the top 4 then lose to one of these two but make the top 4. It's about 50/50 really. Just been too long since we won the fa cup.
Though if we do win this then I think we will definitely finish top 4, even if it has nothing to do with the league form.

darko · Mar 9, 2015

peterstorey said:
Yeah but that Arsenal team was the end of the best ever team seen in the PL so it's hardly a surprise.

I define best as the most points or how soon a club cliches the title. Some combination of those two elements can be argued. Chelsea had 95 points in one season and that's more the the invincibles had. How are they the best ever?

Archie Leach · Mar 9, 2015

darko said:
I define best as the most points or how soon a club cliches the title. Some combination of those two elements can be argued. Chelsea had 95 points in one season and that's more the the invincibles had. How are they the best ever?

Well that's your definition and it's a bit of a black and white one. Your 99 team would be nowhere near the best ever if that's the case.

Desert Eagle · Mar 9, 2015

The Purist said:
As an Arsenal fan, yeah. We were very lucky that day to the extent the game was almost torturous. Not sure how there is any debate that United were lucky in 1999. Of course you were. We missed a last minute penalty and you were totally outplayed in the CL final on a day where I can't believe you didn't concede more.

If you take into account the quality of individual players then the Arsenal Invincibles team were the best ever in the English top flight within anyone's living memory.This is supported by the Invincibles achievement.

As for this game, if we show up at anything near our best we will win. The only problem is we normally don't tend to do that.

Yeah not having that. Bonus lolz for stating it like it's a fact though.

coolredwine · Mar 9, 2015

DDG; Valencia, Jones, Smalling, Rojo; di Maria, Blind, Herrera, Young; Rooney, Falcao.

Adnan, Fellaini to come in should things not work till the 60' minute.

ivaldo · Mar 9, 2015

The Purist said:
As an Arsenal fan, yeah. We were very lucky that day to the extent the game was almost torturous. Not sure how there is any debate that United were lucky in 1999. Of course you were. We missed a last minute penalty and you were totally outplayed in the CL final on a day where I can't believe you didn't concede more.

If you take into account the quality of individual players then the Arsenal Invincibles team were the best ever in the English top flight within anyone's living memory.This is supported by the Invincibles achievement.

As for this game, if we show up at anything near our best we will win. The only problem is we normally don't tend to do that.

Really? Yeah you managed to go the season unbeaten, a run that involved 12 draws. You didn't even reach the final of the FA cup or the Champs league. You were unable to retain the title, in fact the following season Chelsea won it with a higher points total, losing only once in the process. Comparing that team to a triple winning side, or a team that won 3 titles on the bounce, or a team smashing arsenals point total and winning more games in the process the following season, it doesn't float for me.

Sammyjunn · Mar 9, 2015

My brother is a die hard gunner, this is going to be awkward.

soap · Mar 9, 2015

I think Blind, Herrera and Fellaini in midfield, di Maria and Young on the wings would work well. Steely in midfield and ample pace on the counter, which we've historically had success against Arsenal with. I know Arsenal would take a draw and all, its not in their nature to sit back though so I can still see us having joy on the break.

Outremangeur · Mar 9, 2015

im not overly optimistic

stretford_oslo · Mar 9, 2015

On my way to the airport en route to Manchester, we've never lost with me in the stands so i got a feeling this will go well

Can't wait!

Señor · Mar 9, 2015

I'm pretty optimistic about this which usually means one thing. Soul destroying defeat.

GapMinder · Mar 9, 2015

De Gea
Valencia Smalling Rojo Shaw
Carrick Blind
Januzaj Di Maria Young
Rooney

Di Maria has been at his best at the centre. We need to get him at his best again. I also want to see more pace up front, especially against Arsenal. Carrick and Blind can control and distribute. Januzaj and Young keeping the field wide.

GapMinder · Mar 9, 2015

stretford_oslo said:
On my way to the airport en route to Manchester, we've never lost with me in the stands so i got a feeling this will go well

Can't wait!

First match?

Sweet Square · Mar 9, 2015

ivaldo said:
Really? Yeah you managed to go the season unbeaten, a run that involved 12 draws. You didn't even reach the final of the FA cup or the Champs league. You were unable to retain the title, in fact the following season Chelsea won it with a higher points total, losing only once in the process. Comparing that team to a triple winning side, or a team that won 3 titles on the bounce, or a team smashing arsenals point total and winning more games in the process the following season, it doesn't float for me.

It's properly worth a new thread .

But it's something I've a lot of Arsenal fans say(Putting the Invincibles up as one of the greatest English teams of the modern era) and to a degree you can see why(The fact it hasn't been achieved again proves it's extremely difficult)but looking at what that team achieved elsewhere in the season(Quarter finals in the CL and semi finals in the other cups).
It's a bit silly to think of them anywhere the greatest English teams of all time, the reality is they won ONE title that season.

It's the same sort of argument about good is Wenger really? Arsenal fans (most football fans)will say he's a great coach but just simply looking a his record he's no where.

Siorac · Mar 9, 2015

Krovv said:
That twat dived to win the penalty. It's a penalty that shouldn't have stood. That game was a fair draw as both sides were evenly matched on the day.

Although Keown trolling Nistelrooy was

Forlán won the penalty, not RvN.

And Keown, Lauren, Parlour, Cole and co. demonstrated that day that they were some of the biggest cnuts ever seen in English football. It was vile. That Arsenal side were a hateful bunch of utter twats.

I sort of miss them though, the rivalry has no edge to it anymore

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