LGBT Relationship Lessons in UK Schools

RussellWilson

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I struggle to wrap my head around the smartarse “wanting your kids to be heterosexual is now discriminatory, eh?” argument that has reared its head several times in this thread — you would ideally want any kid(s) that you have (or end up having) to be comfortable with themselves, in body and mind, and find love/contentment with the right people for them (unless they're aromantic and/or asexual and have little interest in doing so, which would be totally cool as well). Like, whatever happened to being their biggest ally and genuinely happy for them as they truly are on an inherent level so they don't have to put up a front and wear invisible masks, instead of secretly wishing they were a wee bit different so things could be supposedly easier on the societal front?

You would want to be neutral on the whole homosexual/heterosexual spectral divide because both are valid expressions of sexuality. So what if there's resistance? That can be overcome and leads to progressive change — what an insipid place would the world be if we started cowering at signs or resistance or sporadic societal disapproval from milquetoast dunderheads. As callous as it sounds, reading some of these comments...I really wish the posters don't have non-heterosexual kids because they would unload their value system and creepy manifesto-of-copulation (what if they choose to be child-free in a heterosexual relationship and decide to adopt, not procreate) and indoctrinated biases onto them as a form of passive-aggressive wish fulfillment in subtle (or not-so-subtle) ways instead of empowering their kids with the choice free will — and if things don't go according to the preconceived master plan, potentially damage their identity in an irreparable way from a young age because they're aberrations that don't fit the perfect mold the parents have concocted in their heads. Then we wonder why so many are closeted and never come out, or have crippling self-esteem esteem issues, or are profoundly depressed, or suffer from cognitive dissonance in an existential sense.

Then again, people are capable of change of heart/thought and self-reflection and limitless empathy if they put their mind(s) to it, and maybe they'll be less overbearing/disappointed (even in a passive way) and more actively optimistic/helpful when they're actually in the position of having a homo/trans-sexual kid.
I made the comment and none of what you've said addresses the point of how wanting certain outcomes for your children makes you discriminatory?

A heterosexual couple wanting the same for their kids isn't really surprising. We're all geared to like what we know.

I gave examples of other things I'd want my kids to be which may or may not happen. If I don't want my child to have a disability, does that make me discriminatory against people with disabilities? Is a person with a disability any less valuable than someone without one, of course not.

I'd also prefer my children held on to my culture, they may marry into another culture and not carry it on. Does that now make me racist because I initially would want them to keep our culture alive?

Everything isn't discrimination because you have preferences.


People get shunned by family for not living up to all sorts of expectations. And some parents support their children through all sorts. Like everything, there isn't a one side fits all.
 
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Synco

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Nah. For one thing, you have no idea where people are posting from, and I’m sure plenty are posting from places where homophobia is still a problem. Even the UK is still homophobic today in some regards.
Homophobia is a serious cultural problem everywhere, in varying degrees, so that surely wasn't my point. Not wanting your child to be gay is an expression of homophobia, and it doesn't matter if parents think of it as a loving and caring attitude. I think @Olly Gunnar Solskjær has pretty much nailed it by using the same argument on interracial couples for demonstration purposes.
 

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Homophobia is a serious cultural problem everywhere, in varying degrees, so that surely wasn't my point. Not wanting your child to be gay is an expression of homophobia, and it doesn't matter if parents think of it a loving and caring attitude. I think @Olly Gunnar Solskjær has pretty much nailed it by using the same argument on interracial couples for demonstration purposes.
Fair enough on the bolded.

Demonstrating it's absurd when used for interracial couples is fairly meaningless to this debate though, that is a completely separate topic.

For example;

I don't want my kids to have downs syndrome, so I am prejudiced against people with downs syndrome.
 

RussellWilson

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Fair enough on the bolded.

Demonstrating it's absurd when used for interracial couples is fairly meaningless to this debate though, that is a completely separate topic.

For example;

I don't want my kids to have downs syndrome, so I am prejudiced against people with downs syndrome.
Exactly, it's an absolutely nonsense argument which is why so many people get turned off by the left who go looking for offence at every opportunity.
 

Tarrou

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Exactly, it's an absolutely nonsense argument which is why so many people get turned off by the left who go looking for offence at every opportunity.
I wouldn't call it a nonsense argument because it comes from a position of wanting to push things forward.

To be honest I'm questioning my own view-point after a bit of push-back on my posts in here, which is good. I'm just going to be quiet and listen to what others have to say for a bit :-)
 

Synco

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Demonstrating it's absurd when used for interracial couples is fairly meaningless to this debate though, that is a completely separate topic.
No, it's spot on, as for a certain attitude from parents towards their children. You called it a fair point yourself on the last page:
Okay fair point. But then I’ll ask you the same question. If you lived in a country that outlaws homosexuality, would you want your kid to be gay and have to live through that?
Now you call it "fairly meaningless". What is it?

For example;

I don't want my kids to have downs syndrome, so I am prejudiced against people with downs syndrome.
Homosexuality isn't a disability. You and others using analogies like that (someone else used a child being "not so bright" as comparison) are just reinforcing the criticism.

(Even for the matter of disability and learning deficiencies, there could be said something about this. But I won't go there now.)
 

Tarrou

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No, it's spot on, as for a certain attitude from parents towards their children. You called it a fair point yourself on the last page:

Now you call it "fairly meaningless". What is it?


Homosexuality isn't a disability. You and others using analogies like that (someone else used a child being "not so bright" as comparison) are just reinforcing the criticism.

(Even for the matter of disability and learning deficiencies, there could be said something about this. But I won't go there now.)
It did make me reconsider my view-point so I think it worked well as a way to challenge my post. I'm happy to praise a post like that.

But essentially the way society treats interracial couples is completely different to how it treats gay people.

I myself am in an interracial couple and have been for 10 years, living in 5 different countries (though admittedly all in the west) and it has never once been an issue. I don't think my parents would have even given it a seconds thought as a potential problem I have to deal with in my life.

Being gay carries the death penalty in some places, and in some carries a prison sentence. How can we ignore those places in such a discussion? Sure, it doesn't affect myself as a potential parent, but there are people in the world where it will be of huge importance.
 

RussellWilson

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Homosexuality isn't a disability. You and others using analogies like that (someone else used a child being "not so bright" as comparison) are just reinforcing the criticism.

(Even for the matter of disability and learning deficiencies, there could be said something about this. But I won't go there now.)
No one is claiming that homosexuality is a disability. But the analogy is very clear. In both instances the parent and the child has no choice on this matter. In both instances the outcome will have impacts on both parent and child lives.

The parent having a preference for either is not discriminatory.

Do you want explain how the analogy doesn't work or how it is homophobic instead of just stating it is?
 

esmufc07

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No one is claiming that homosexuality is a disability. But the analogy is very clear. In both instances the parent and the child has no choice on this matter. In both instances the outcome will have impacts on both parent and child lives.

The parent having a preference for either is not discriminatory.

Do you want explain how the analogy doesn't work or how it is homophobic instead of just stating it is?
Having a daughter over a son will mean she is likely to experience all sorts of sexism and difficulties in life, far more than a heterosexual son will. So do you wish for a son over a daughter?
 

nickm

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The sad story of the ones that would prefer a heterosexual than a homosexual because they would like to have grand-kids is that you would love them less (even if you say no) as they would not fullfill your hopes and dreams and will disappoint you
Do you have kids? If so you will know the love you have for them is not contingent on anything. They will inevitably disappoint you about something or other but it doesn’t change how much you love them.
 

nickm

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Having a daughter over a son will mean she is likely to experience all sorts of sexism and difficulties in life, far more than a heterosexual son will. So do you wish for a son over a daughter?
Lots of people have preferences over sons vs daughters, or numbers of each. Not that anyone gets a choice in the matter. I’m one of the lucky ones who got what I hoped for but if I hadn’t, well that’s life.
 

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Everything isn't discrimination because you have preferences.
I don't think you really “get it”, otherwise you won't be concocting farcical arguments, or repeating the same things over and over again like a pre-programmed automaton. People should keep their preferences (many of which are codified biases and may not even be theirs but passed down to them by family and immediate environment) to themselves, instead of projecting them onto their children. Let them figure out who they are at the core of their being, let them decide what they want to be, and what they ultimately want in their years of existence instead of perpetuating the cycle of indoctrination (a socio-political control measure that creates dogmas and chasms, and fragments humanity by hard-wiring orthodox views instead of uniting it).
A heterosexual couple wanting the same for their kids isn't really surprising. We're all geared to like what we know.
It is surprising, at least to me as a heterosexual person...maybe I should read the universal heterosexual manual to inform myself. A heterosexual couple shouldn't want the same for their kids because each individual is inherently distinctive with their own personality and temperament and little idiosyncrasies, and should be treated as a blank canvas...keep your grubby preferences and list-of-wants off that canvas and let them fill it out on their own if you really want to be free-thinkers.
I gave examples of other things I'd want my kids to be which may or may not happen. If I don't want my child to have a disability, does that make me discriminatory against people with disabilities? Is a person with a disability any less valuable than someone without one, of course not.
Homo/trans-sexuality isn't analogous to a disability, and you should know that without me spelling it out for you. Whatever impediments are placed in people's path are done so by a judgmental society that wants to control them to follow the heterosexual norm like cattle. We should be pushing back against those controls so that folks can be free to express themselves, instead of comparing homo/trans-sexuality with a legitimate handicap that fundamentally limits them (which is essentially what you've suggested in an indirect way).
I'd also prefer my children held on to my culture, they may marry into another culture and not carry it on. Does that now make me racist because I initially would want them to keep our culture alive?
Again, why do you want to exercise this much constrictive control over your children, why can't you leave them be without fear of judgement through your patriarchal preferences? They don't have to carry on your traditions and be the flag-bearers of your culture just because you birthed/reared them because they're not components off an assembly line, and you shouldn't have a preference on the matter (because your hierarchy of preferences will be directly or indirectly communicated to them, even if you try to swallow the bitter pill). Instead of focusing on things that mean absolutely nothing in the grand scheme of things, raise them to be intelligent, self-aware, self-sufficient, empathetic, well-informed humans that can make sounds decisions and don't harbor the same preferences biases that you do...that is actual progress and what we should be gunning for as a species.
 

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Bit my tongue for a while but...

1. A homosexual male/female is not incapable of doing anything that a heterosexual male/female is capable of doing physically or mentally. Anything that they are incapable of doing is due to societal barriers. Unfortunately people with disabilities are incapable of doing some things that either of these can outside of these societal barriers.

2. People who are arguing that wanting children to have grandchildren is the biology of procreation and reproduction. Eh no. The biological aspect is in regards to ourselves wanting to reproduce. My kids reproducing is not me doing so, despite us sharing genes. There are quite large and distinct differences between me creating a child and my child creating one ffs.

3. If you'd rather your child be heterosexual than homosexual and you're also advocating for the normalisation of homosexuality in society then that doesn't fecking work. You saying you'd rather your child be heterosexual is rejecting the notion of homosexuality being normalised in society.
 

Zlatattack

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...



What is he saying then, shamans?
Look explain to me, how if you're not attracted to someone of the opposite sex, how you're going to procreate?

I'm sure they physically can but because of thier sexual preferences are very unlikely to.

What is your problem with basic logic?
 

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The longer this thread goes on the more staggering some of the posts are.

We have a long way to go with getting rid of homophobia sadly.
 

Zlatattack

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If that was true then you’d observe homophobia in the animal kingdom, especially towards homosexual kin. The lack of which would suggest that this is a human societal phenomenon, and as cognitively complex humans who have somewhat outgrown “nature”, you should think we could discern and overcome irrational, anachronistic, societally based prejudiced thinking?
Why does what I said have to equal homosexuality?

Are you suggesting that if you don't think something is predominant in a society it should/would be discriminated against?
 

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Interesting. Is Brexit taught or discussed because kids bring it up?
The latter. It isn’t in the curriculum, of course. But the teaching of democracy is. Brexit was/is an example of democratic voting etc. So it tends to crop up without being explicitly taught, if that makes sense.
 

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The latter. It isn’t in the curriculum, of course. But the teaching of democracy is. Brexit was/is an example of democratic voting etc. So it tends to crop up without being explicitly taught, if that makes sense.
It does. Thanks.
 

RussellWilson

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Having a daughter over a son will mean she is likely to experience all sorts of sexism and difficulties in life, far more than a heterosexual son will. So do you wish for a son over a daughter?
Lots of people wish for a son or daughter. My first was a daughter, so second time around I wanted a son. Does this now make me sexist?
 

RussellWilson

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When did gay rights become exclusively an issue supported by 'the left'?
I didn't say it was, I said the eagerness to call everything discriminatory certainly sits with the left more. People in this thread are claiming having a preference for your child now makes you homophobic. Certainly seems like a big leap to me.
 

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I didn't say it was, I said the eagerness to call everything discriminatory certainly sits with the left more. People in this thread are claiming having a preference for your child now makes you homophobic. Certainly seems like a big leap to me.

How do you know they are all on 'the left'?
 

Wibble

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Look explain to me, how if you're not attracted to someone of the opposite sex, how you're going to procreate?

I'm sure they physically can but because of thier sexual preferences are very unlikely to.

What is your problem with basic logic?
Being gay doesn't mean you don't want to have kids.

Many gay people have kids.
 

esmufc07

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Lots of people wish for a son or daughter. My first was a daughter, so second time around I wanted a son. Does this no make me sexist?
But (one) of your arguments for not wanting a gay child is because of the difficulties your child would face in life for being gay. So if the logic follows surely the easiest life your child could have is if they were born a straight male?
 

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Look explain to me, how if you're not attracted to someone of the opposite sex, how you're going to procreate?

I'm sure they physically can but because of thier sexual preferences are very unlikely to.

What is your problem with basic logic?

Are you on the fecking windup with a post like that?
 

RussellWilson

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I don't think you really “get it”, otherwise you won't be concocting farcical arguments, or repeating the same things over and over again like a pre-programmed automaton. People should keep their preferences (many of which are codified biases and may not even be theirs but passed down to them by family and immediate environment) to themselves, instead of projecting them onto their children. Let them figure out who they are at the core of their being, let them decide what they want to be, and what they ultimately want in their years of existence instead of perpetuating the cycle of indoctrination (a socio-political control measure that creates dogmas and chasms, and fragments humanity by hard-wiring orthodox views instead of uniting it).

It is surprising, at least to me as a heterosexual person...maybe I should read the universal heterosexual manual to inform myself. A heterosexual couple shouldn't want the same for their kids because each individual is inherently distinctive with their own personality and temperament and little idiosyncrasies, and should be treated as a blank canvas...keep your grubby preferences and list-of-wants off that canvas and let them fill it out on their own if you really want to be free-thinkers.

Homo/trans-sexuality isn't analogous to a disability, and you should know that without me spelling it out for you. Whatever impediments are placed in people's path are done so by a judgmental society that wants to control them to follow the heterosexual norm like cattle. We should be pushing back against those controls so that folks can be free to express themselves, instead of comparing homo/trans-sexuality with a legitimate handicap that fundamentally limits them (which is essentially what you've suggested in an indirect way).

Again, why do you want to exercise this much constrictive control over your children, why can't you leave them be without fear of judgement through your patriarchal preferences? They don't have to carry on your traditions and be the flag-bearers of your culture just because you birthed/reared them because they're not components off an assembly line, and you shouldn't have a preference on the matter (because your hierarchy of preferences will be directly or indirectly communicated to them, even if you try to swallow the bitter pill). Instead of focusing on things that mean absolutely nothing in the grand scheme of things, raise them to be intelligent, self-aware, self-sufficient, empathetic, well-informed humans that can make sounds decisions and don't harbor the same preferences biases that you do...that is actual progress and what we should be gunning for as a species.
This whole post screams I have never raised children. You makes choices for your kids everyday until they are an adult. You have a plan and you make choices based on what you feel is best for them.

Do I think I can raise a straight kid better than a gay kid? Of course I bloody do, because I know nothing of the challenges a gay person faces.

How in the world does that now mean I'm homophobic because of that? Answer that instead of going on about projecting and the impact on the kid. Of course there is going to be impacts of a child being gay for child and parent because that's the nature of the issue.

No one in this thread is saying they will not love a gay child. They are simply saying if they could pick this is what they would pick.
 

RussellWilson

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But (one) of your arguments for not wanting a gay child is because of the difficulties your child would face in life for being gay. So if the logic follows surely the easiest life your child could have is if they were born a straight male?
I agree. If I had one child and I could pick, I'd pick a straight male because as a straight male I could support and raise that child better because it's what I an relate too and have experienced.

Raising kids is bloody hard, I'd want as few barriers as possible.
 

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What's this thread about again?

If we teach our kids that sometimes men love other men it means they're going to turn gay, move to Saudi Arabia and not have kids of their own :confused:
 

RussellWilson

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Your arguments appear mostly based on what you reckon than actual fachts.
Where have I stated anything as fact?

I've asked a simple question, why does a person having a preference for a straight child or a gay child make that person homophobic?

Apart from "that means your bias against gay people therefore you're homophobic" no one has provided a decent response.
 

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Do I think I can raise a straight kid better than a gay kid? Of course I bloody do, because I know nothing of the challenges a gay person faces.

How in the world does that now mean I'm homophobic because of that? Answer that instead of going on about projecting and the impact on the kid. Of course there is going to be impacts of a child being gay for child and parent because that's the nature of the issue.

No one in this thread is saying they will not love a gay child. They are simply saying if they could pick this is what they would pick.
Do I think I can raise a boy better than a girl? Of course I bloody do, because I know nothing of the challenges a girl faces.

How in the world does that now mean I'm sexist because of that? Answer that instead of going on about projecting and the impact on the kid. Of course there is going to be impacts of a child being a girl because that's the nature of the issue.

No one in this thread is saying they will not love a girl child. They are simply saying if they could pick a boy that is what they would pick.
 

Raees

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I struggle to wrap my head around the smartarse “wanting your kids to be heterosexual is now discriminatory, eh?” argument that has reared its head several times in this thread — you would ideally want any kid(s) that you have (or end up having) to be comfortable with themselves, in body and mind, and find love/contentment with the right people for them (unless they're aromantic and/or asexual and have little interest in doing so, which would be totally cool as well). Like, whatever happened to being their biggest ally and genuinely happy for them as they truly are on an inherent level so they don't have to put up a front and wear invisible masks, instead of secretly wishing they were a wee bit different so things could be supposedly easier on the societal front?

You would want to be neutral on the whole homosexual/heterosexual spectral divide because both are valid expressions of sexuality. So what if there's resistance? That can be overcome and leads to progressive change — what an insipid place would the world be if we started cowering at signs or resistance or sporadic societal disapproval from milquetoast dunderheads. As callous as it sounds, reading some of these comments...I really wish the posters don't have non-heterosexual kids because they would unload their value system and creepy manifesto-of-copulation (what if they choose to be child-free in a heterosexual relationship and decide to adopt, not procreate) and indoctrinated biases onto them as a form of passive-aggressive wish fulfillment in subtle (or not-so-subtle) ways instead of empowering their kids with the choice free will — and if things don't go according to the preconceived master plan, potentially damage their identity in an irreparable way from a young age because they're aberrations that don't fit the perfect mold the parents have concocted in their heads. Then we wonder why so many are closeted and never come out, or have crippling self-esteem esteem issues, or are profoundly depressed, or suffer from cognitive dissonance in an existential sense.

Then again, people are capable of change of heart/thought and self-reflection and limitless empathy if they put their mind(s) to it, and maybe they'll be less overbearing/disappointed (even in a passive way) and more actively optimistic/helpful when they're actually in the position of having a homo/trans-sexual kid.
I find the 'I want my kid to be hetro because of the societal issues such as Saudi etc' perspective invalid because that for me is giving into homophobia in the sense you're allowing man-made cultural norms based on religion to ultimately determine your preference for what the child should be. Again as long as you don't actually allow that to impact your actual parenting of the child, I don't think no harm is done but agreed that opinion is on dodgy grounds.

On the other hand if you have concerns that (1) it would be slightly more difficult for them to raise a family in the nuclear sense of the word, and without any medical or third party interference, not to mention (2) impact on unprotected sexual enjoyment/heightened sexual disease risk, then I do see it as a valid opinion to have a slight preference pre-birth of what you'd hope the child to be. With modern technology/rules (1) isn't that big of an issue but (2) still very much remains a real issue which gets swept under the carpet. A recent family friend who came out was traumatised because of both issues, he was saddened that he can't really have a kid with his partner unless one of them provides the sperm, but it can't be a mutual contribution.. he found it unfair and likewise he was scared of the sexual side of things because although he was obviously attracted to guys, he was stressed and anxious about the whole anal sex aspect. It is not all fun and games for people even after they have come out.

As for openly wishing for a trans kid, I do not get that at all.. why would you hope for your kid to come out in a body they feel uncomfortable in and have to suffer transition etc. That doesn't make one transphobic, it just makes someone a good parent as in you wouldn't want them to have to suffer in any way. Even if you tried to make the transitional phase as smooth as possible, there would be difficulties in the first place for all of you to be able to reach the conclusion the kid is suffering from gender dysphoria. Now if you're against them transitioning etc when there is all evidence of the contrary then yes you're a cnut but saying that anyone who hopes their kid is born without any gender dysphoria issues is transphobic is ludicrous.
 
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RussellWilson

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Do I think I can raise a boy better than a girl? Of course I bloody do, because I know nothing of the challenges a girl faces.

How in the world does that now mean I'm sexist because of that? Answer that instead of going on about projecting and the impact on the kid. Of course there is going to be impacts of a child being a girl because that's the nature of the issue.

No one in this thread is saying they will not love a girl child. They are simply saying if they could pick a boy that is what they would pick.
Yes and parents prefer one gender or another.

Get in the real world and out of your liberal utopia.
 

RussellWilson

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Is it still OK to not want your children to be Tory or a Liverpool supporter though?
No, that's projecting. You must free yourself of all wants for your children so they are free thinkers ready to decide everything from birth.
 

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Bit my tongue for a while but...

1. A homosexual male/female is not incapable of doing anything that a heterosexual male/female is capable of doing physically or mentally. Anything that they are incapable of doing is due to societal barriers. Unfortunately people with disabilities are incapable of doing some things that either of these can outside of these societal barriers.

2. People who are arguing that wanting children to have grandchildren is the biology of procreation and reproduction. Eh no. The biological aspect is in regards to ourselves wanting to reproduce. My kids reproducing is not me doing so, despite us sharing genes. There are quite large and distinct differences between me creating a child and my child creating one ffs.

3. If you'd rather your child be heterosexual than homosexual and you're also advocating for the normalisation of homosexuality in society then that doesn't fecking work. You saying you'd rather your child be heterosexual is rejecting the notion of homosexuality being normalised in society.
This post is very hypothetical. I'm in an interracial marriage and I'd want my kid to be hetero because Mauritius only decriminalised homosexuality not that long ago and prejudice is deep there.
It maybe selfish, but I don't want my kid being schooled in an environment where they'd be bullied mercilessly or have to hide who they are.
The in-laws would be horrible too. On one level maybe that's in selfish, in that with it would be a nightmare, but also, do you really want your kid to have to be one of the early pioneers fighting for exception in the face of extreme prejudice?
If we were both solely UK-based I don't think I'd be bothered either way.