They already have it. They are Pakistan. They have had it for a very long time now.
Iran Plane Crash and Subsequent Protests
- Thread starter Fergies Gum
- Start date
The funny thing is(if its ever funny) the US itself has said that Iran is sticking sticking to that agreement. What Trump wants is to get rid of the agreement not because Iran is not abiding by it but because it is something Obama has done it.
The worst thing about this - apart from the appalling and senseless loss of life - is it strangely almost vindicates the U.S actions due to the way public opinion has changed.
yeh, was referring more specifically to Iran. My worry is any religiously driven political system is a massive danger to world peace.
How would you rank a nation that went to war, based on a 'sexed up' and fake dossier? Would you also classify them as 'non advanced' and prone to calamity?
Or a nation that went to war convinced they would find WOMD and then not find any?
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Bollocks to your bollocks,
There has always been a mixed view about the Obama deal with Iran being any good .It was obvious Trump was not going to abide by it and the US voted him in.
The Obama deal was only necessary because Iran changed tack on the previous non proliferation treaty.
The rest is semantics.
Iran has its reasons the US has theirs as does the EU and UK for the positions they take. All I wanted to point out because this part gets left out of these discussions, is that Iran has volition here and is responsible for its own predicament.
And I'm sure they are glad they have them. I don't blame Iran for wanting to get them either .
Firstly I was talking about the Non proliferation treaty signed by Iran in the 70's?.
BS. Trump unilaterally tore it up.
If i was an iranian id want nukes too when idiots like trump are in charge and beating the drums of war.
Secondly it would depend on which part of Iranian society you belonged to because I don't think those Iranians on the street today want the Ayatollah to have his finger on the button and if they every get to that point then it makes it much harder for the people of Iran to ever get rid of the conservative religious autocracy forced on them after the fall of the shah.
It doesn't take an expert on accidental plane take downs to see the differences between the two incidents. Aside from the fact the one you reference, and people keep referencing, is 32 years ago and took place during the middle of a war.
The rest of what you say about my core point and evidence and such is waffle and has no substance. The point is a pretty easy one to follow really.
With regards to your opinion that I have an agenda based on my perception of Iranian people compared to those closer to home you can feck off with that. You know nothing about me nor are you in any position to throw that kind of thing around.
I can only assume you're asking me these questions in this thread based on the fact I'm (rightly) being critical of Iran yet you feel I won't be critical of Western Countries like the US and UK etc?
Unsure why having an opinion on one thing means you automatically get bracketed somewhere else when it comes to the CE forum. It's pretty bizarre. Without taking the thread off topic I'd be equally critical in such circumstances if that helps.
Why would Iran intentionally shoot down a foreign airliner - it doesn't make any sense. It's clear they attacked the base in Iraq to avoid casualties, and yet they go on and shoot down an aircraft full of civilians and cause an international and diplomatic outrage.. why would anyone with an ounce of strategic planning agree to that? It was a massive blunder, which unfortunately led to a tragic accident. Saying all that Iran should still be held accountable through sanctions or limited travel to and from Iran from the rest of the world until they remove all surface to air missiles in the vicinity of all international airports.
Iran Air Flight 655 was a scheduled passenger flight from Tehran to Dubai via Bandar Abbas that was shot down on 3 July 1988 by an SM-2MR surface-to-air missile fired from USS Vincennes, a guided-missile cruiser of the United States Navy. The aircraft, an Airbus A300, was destroyed and all 290 people on board were killed
The jet was hit while flying over Iran's territorial waters in the Persian Gulf, along the flight's usual route, shortly after departing Bandar Abbas International Airport, the flight's stopover location.
The problem with that one was only one real human being (Italy) died, so it's best forgotten.
| Nationality | Passengers | Crew | Total |
|---|---|---|---|
| Iran | 238 | 16 | 254 |
| United Arab Emirates | 13 | 0 | 13 |
| India | 10 | 0 | 10 |
| Pakistan | 6 | 0 | 6 |
| Yugoslavia | 6 | 0 | 6 |
| Italy | 1 | 0 | 1 |
| Total | 274 | 16 | 290 |
Not sure if you would call Pakistan religiously driven or not, but Israel obviously are. Both have nuclear weapons.
The Islamic Republic of Pakistan exists, and has more than a hundred warheads
Example would be the same if Iran had shot it down..
The incident you refer to happened 32 years ago and in the middle of a war. Different circumstances (still awful mind). In this instance Iran has shot down an aircraft which has just left their own airport!
What do you think Iranian air defence was prepared for on that night? There were multipe reports here of F-35 launches from one of a dozen bases the US has encircling Iran.
The circumstances are almost exactly the same, except that it was the US going halfway around the world to do the same.
The point I was making is when we are talking to any country (diplomacy) we can always avoid conflict.
The US are lap dogs of Israel and S. Arabia. With Trump's act we have escalated turmoil and tension in the Middle East.
More protests today happening now ...Tehran especially is very busy.
Family in Isfahan are saying there are shit ton of IRGC and security forces out on the streets, but people are gathering. In many other cities as well.
"Soleimani is a killer, just like his supreme leader"..."Akhoonds (clerics) need to get the feck out" .... "IRGC Brothers, you're our Daesh (ISIS)" , "They killed our brightest (referring to all the young educated people on the plane), and replaced them with Clerics" are some of the most prevalent chants. I'm just tattooed to twitter now following this.
But the regime is so disgusting if they ever get their hand on nukes, I doubt they'd hesitate it to drop it on Iranian civilians if it's needed to save and protect the Nezam (Regime).
Family in Isfahan are saying there are shit ton of IRGC and security forces out on the streets, but people are gathering. In many other cities as well.
"Soleimani is a killer, just like his supreme leader"..."Akhoonds (clerics) need to get the feck out" .... "IRGC Brothers, you're our Daesh (ISIS)" , "They killed our brightest (referring to all the young educated people on the plane), and replaced them with Clerics" are some of the most prevalent chants. I'm just tattooed to twitter now following this.
But the regime is so disgusting if they ever get their hand on nukes, I doubt they'd hesitate it to drop it on Iranian civilians if it's needed to save and protect the Nezam (Regime).
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I'm not sure why you can't see the differences. 1) no one is at war 2) Iran shot down their own plane which left their own airspace 3) one is 32 years ago - technology has improved since.
Both are feck ups but this one could be something from a comedy script if it wasn't so bloody tragic.
Trump and the Republicans wanted to overturn everything Obama the black guy did.
There's detailed stuff on the older one on wiki. They had friend-or-foe identification (wasn't a foe) and the plane was climbing up, and was in its scheduled route. All 3 things exactly like this time. I also don't buy the wartime thing because this happened on a day when Iran could reasonably expect bombing sorties or missile attacks, I think that's about equal.
I think it's worse to do it in someone else's country (and then promote the guy who pulled the trigger), but that's subjective.
There was a 3rd shootdown, the USSR shooting a Korean 747 when it silently entered Soviet airspace (twice) and did not respond. I think they have comparatively quite a lot of justification, especially since there was also US naval activity in the same area for months. But their response was much worse, they first denied it and then covered up a lot of evidence.
Drumpf seems to have finally figured out he can be a real nuisance to the regime without needing to go kinetic.
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It's not a question of what's worse to me. They are all terrible. I'm pointing out this incident is arguably the most calamitous when you look everything around it. You won't change my mind on that. They've shot down an aircraft that left their own capitals airport and airspace.. its beyond stupid.
Sure, I was saying that it's not unique. (And there's an additional layer of irony given who was involved and where it happened).
As are the stupid capitalistic Western powers.
Agreed they're different incidents. You're so intent on focusing on the differences that you're overlooking the much more significant similarities, though. The similarities are what make it unequivocally untrue that only a military stuck in the dark ages could do something like that. And what the US, Russia and others have done are also so calamitous, they would be comical if they weren't so tragic. Those comments are reserved exclusively for these Iranian folks. These no marks that think they can play with the big boys, look how primitive they are, and all that jazz. And yet you can't even bring yourself to admit it.
Agreed I know nothing about you, and what I and others have picked up on comes exclusively from your own words. I don't know whether it's unintentional or you think the coded language is an impenetrable veil or something, but it's there to see man. I'm not seeing it in every negative post about Iran, just a handful, with yours being one. In fact I don't know anyone in this thread that isn't critical of Iran, in light of the facts. Surely there's a reason your messages appear different to multiple people.
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The world is built on capitalism. Without it where would we be? Scraping around in the dirt for food?
As far as I’m concerned religious states, particularly Islamic ones at this point in history are completely undesirable. Western countries bring freedom and stability, religious ones bring oppression.
The world is built on capitalism. Without it where would we be? Scraping around in the dirt for food?
As far as I’m concerned religious states, particularly Islamic ones at this point in history are completely undesirable. Western countries bring freedom and stability, religious ones bring oppression.
It looks VERY busy in Azadi square in Tehran. Also Sanandaj, Karaj, Esfahan, Yazd, Semnan, Mashhad and more. People are angry!!
and just wow at this....when you thought these thugs couldn't get any lower. From eyewitness:
با آمبولانس نیرو میارن. مردم راهو واسه امبولانس باز میکنن. میان تو دل جمعیت پیاده میشن. وسط چهارراه تو طالقانی واستاد. تاریخ کثیف تر از اینا به خود ندیده
The translation is: "since cars have blocked the roads, so security forces and IRGC can't get to the main square, they are using ambulances to transport their forces, so people would open the road, then they'd storm out of the ambulance once at the square and beating protestors up."
and just wow at this....when you thought these thugs couldn't get any lower. From eyewitness:
با آمبولانس نیرو میارن. مردم راهو واسه امبولانس باز میکنن. میان تو دل جمعیت پیاده میشن. وسط چهارراه تو طالقانی واستاد. تاریخ کثیف تر از اینا به خود ندیده
The translation is: "since cars have blocked the roads, so security forces and IRGC can't get to the main square, they are using ambulances to transport their forces, so people would open the road, then they'd storm out of the ambulance once at the square and beating protestors up."
What are the odds the regime might fall this time ?
I can't tell. But this is definitely the weakest they've been since their existence. I've never seen such collective ANGER among people ...it's past grief now. All the good PR and "rallying behind the flag" BS they wanted after Soleimani's murder is gone with this PS752 scandal. Less than 2 months after the November massacre. But this tijme, they can't accuse protestors of being MEK (they are irrelevant, have zero support in Iran), US/Israeli/Saudi shills, seeing as them admitting shooting the plane caused the protests.
But again, as Lenin said: "One person with a gun can control 100 people without it." ....and the Basiji, IRGC thugs are actually Daesh like to people at home. Hope is some of them have dignity and join the people and get the hierarchy to collapse.
This is one of the reasons I actually think second-amendment is a good idea. It prevents situations like in Iran when only one side has guns and can kill the other side with no mercy or consequences to stay in power.
Well, that escalated quickly.
I'm more afraid now than I ever was before. Let's say Iran wants to launch nukes at occupied Palestine, I'd worry they'd hit us (Lebanon) by accident!
I'm more afraid now than I ever was before. Let's say Iran wants to launch nukes at occupied Palestine, I'd worry they'd hit us (Lebanon) by accident!
Kept randomly calling people prats?
From the outside looking in at Iran for years, the regime appears to have maintained a consistent level of internal solidarity and cohesion for 40 years (obviously the real state of affairs might have been quite different). It’s probably helped that there’s only been one change at the very top in that time. I wonder if this is the moment that instigates a real, significant division among the ruling establishment, rather than the superficial “moderate/extremist” which many in the West and elsewhere placed their hopes on in previous years. Actual regime collapse would seem to necessitate such a division.
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I'm sorry but you're clutching at straws. Trying to go down the route that I'm prejudice is a new low though. I'm simply discussing the Iranian incident and this is the thread to do that. If you disagree what the Iranian military did was ridiculously stupid then that's up to you. If you also disagree that the Iranian military is not as advanced as the United States again that's up to you. I've not condoned anything the US has done and I've been critical of what they did 32 years ago earlier. I'm simply giving my opinion that this tragic incident highlights the gulf between the military capabilities between the two countries contrary to what some would have you believe. That doesn't make me a racist or prejudice however much you seem to want to paint it that way.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1953_Iranian_coup_d'état
We wont have an Islamic Regime if the US and UK had not overthrown a democratically elected government.
Think about that.
We wont have an Islamic Regime if the US and UK had not overthrown a democratically elected government.
Think about that.
This is really quite fecked up and revealing (if true obviously). The IRGC were basically using civilian flights as human-carrying shields against potential US strikes, in doing so counting on the US to behave in a way which runs counter to how typical Iranian regime propaganda portrays the US:
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If a new Iranian revolution happens that ushers in a moderate regime then Trump will be POTUS for life.
Stumbling and bumbling into the great foreign policy win he's so desperate for that propels him in 2020.
The Gods have a terrible sense of humor, so I wouldn't rule it out.