We're actually quite good

Withnail · Feb 28, 2020

Amadaeus said:
I can because a majority of this player were there, but regardless if you don’t want to look at that, you can still look at the incredible run we had when Ole was interim manager, which was just last year.

Those young players are good enough for minutes, especially if we do have a supposedly thin squad.

They absolutely aren't good enough yet.

Garner is too young and lightweight, I'm not sure Chong will ever be good enough, Gomes hadn't really impressed and Greenwood is being eased in quite sensibly.

As for the other point none of AWB, Maguire, Fred, James or Fernandes were in team that came second and McTominay didn't play much.

Thats the backbone of the current team.
@ReddBalls has already listed the significant number of players who've left.

You can say what you like but it isn't the same team at all.

Any team can go on a run for a short period of time especially with new manager bounce and the weight of Jose off their backs but it means nothing given the subsequent crash.

Mart1974 · Feb 28, 2020

2 things I noticed from last night's game even when it was 11 v 11. 1. Bruno can pick a pass into a crowded area. 2. Ighalo can receive a ball, hold up and bring other players in. I think both things give me a sense of optimism I haven't had for a while.

Farfetched · Feb 28, 2020

We have improved with the introduction of Bruno as his inclusion seems to have made us play a good 10 yards further up the pitch and also makes the transition from defence to attack much quicker; this has to make us better. With Leicester losing tonight the ‘race for fourth place’ must now be amended to ‘the race for third and fourth place’ as a positive result on Sunday puts 6 points off third with a game with Leicester still to come.

ReddBalls · Feb 28, 2020

One of Ole's goals for this season was improving the fitness of the players. I understand that to be sustaining energy levels thorought the season. If he has succeeded with that, we will reap the rewards from now on. Most teams (included previous United squads) fall off a cliff in the latter part of the season. Here's hoping!

bondsname · Feb 28, 2020

You had to create this thread just before a series of extremely crucial games? Way to jinx it man. I'm blaming you if we lose on Sunday.

Hoof the ball · Feb 28, 2020

We were very fortunate not to concede in the first 15 mins; numerous times, in fact. Yes, we later played much better, especially vs. ten men, but it'd be foolish to simply forget that it wasn't 90 minutes of swashbuckling football and defensive solidarity.

Withnail · Feb 28, 2020

ReddBalls said:
Yeah, hardly the same squad. Rojo, Sanchez, Lukaku, Zlatan, Smalling, Carrick, Blind, Young, Herrerra, Mkhitaryan, Valencia, Fellaini, Darmain all gone.

It's a totally baffling take :lol:

ReddBalls · Feb 28, 2020

Withnail said:
It's a totally baffling take

Agree.

FrankWhite · Feb 28, 2020

Regardless of the outcome of the next 3 fixtures, I think we have definitely improved.
The problem we had at the start of season was that only two of our front four positions, LW and CF (rashford and martial) were occupied by what I'd class as b+ grade player. The other positions, AM and RW were filled by players that fluctuate between grades C and D. The issue with this is that rashford and martial have to be On all the time for us to met our winning condition. One night off from either of those and we really struggle, as seen many times this season.
The acquisition of Fernandes changes this. Now we have a B+ player at AM. Once rashford is back, we will have close to no issues with the lower teams. This is why the signing of top class RW is so important next season. It automatically makes us contenders. Hopefully sancho.
So yeah, definitely reasons to be optimistic.

rollingstoned1 · Feb 29, 2020

Yea we are cracking team who just can't catch a break with injuries. That gets overlooked a lot whenever we lose or draw a game and look poor. Almost since the start of the season we have rarely put out our strongest xi and when we have the football has generally been enjoyable along with some good results against strong teams. We don't seem to get much credit for them though so despite a young n inconsistent squad it always looks like ole is on borrowed time with a lot of people waiting to say I told you so and ask for poch.

RedBanker · Feb 29, 2020

Hoof The Ball said:
We were very fortunate not to concede in the first 15 mins; numerous times, in fact. Yes, we later played much better, especially vs. ten men, but it'd be foolish to simply forget that it wasn't 90 minutes of swashbuckling football and defensive solidarity.

No one will accept or admit this. It's not fashionable.

Tarrou · Feb 29, 2020

RedBanker said:
No one will accept or admit this. It's not fashionable.

I accept it

SaintMuppet · Feb 29, 2020

Compared to what, who, when, which ???
The trouble with the op is it leaves to much to personal opinion!

We do seem to slowly be turning and heading in the right direction, long may it continue. ‘Ole’s at the whale’

imamuppet · Feb 29, 2020

Ive lost count of the number of times this season that Liverpool have been very fortunate not to concede several goals in several different games.

And here we have Manchester United fans on this board who seem to want to belittle every little negative thing that happens in a game of football just to back up their 'point'.

Fortune is part of the game of football, as its a part of life, to use fortune as a stick to beat your own team, I dont get it.

Im pissed how fortunate Liverpool have been this season, but thats how it is.

Ive got Watford beating Liverpool this weekend ............

Red00012 · Feb 29, 2020

Foxbatt said:
We were good after a decent start. Yes the 10 men did help but lets beat Everton next week. I still do not like the parallel two midfield players. Against better teams we have been found out.

Strange comment .
We’ve beaten Leicester , Spurs , City twice ,Chelsea three times and the only club to get points off Liverpool. It’s the lower half of the table we’ve struggled.

Fussball13251 · Feb 29, 2020

Manchester United have won 10 of the last 13 matches in which Scott McTominay has played

Reading some dumb posts on Twitter. This is why need him in the team based on statistical data. We need 4th. This is about football and winning matches not about favourite players. We need him and Bruno in the team as often as possible to amass enough points.

Sassy Colin · Feb 29, 2020

Fussball13251 said:
Manchester United have won 10 of the last 13 matches in which Scott McTominay has played

Reading some dumb posts on Twitter. This is why need him in the team based on statistical data. We need 4th. This is about football and winning matches not about favourite players. We need him and Bruno in the team as often as possible to amass enough points.

You just contradicted yourself

Denis' cuff · Feb 29, 2020

RedBanker said:
No one will accept or admit this. It's not fashionable.

No mate. I’d say wingers like you are fashionable. When you complain that the club you “support” have been fortunate, do you also stop to consider when we have been unfortunate? No need to answer. You’d rather complain, be negative and not recognise any improvements, yet can’t wait to praise rivals who have been far more fortunate.

RedBanker · Feb 29, 2020

Denis' cuff said:
No mate. I’d say wingers like you are fashionable. When you complain that the club you “support” have been fortunate, do you also stop to consider when we have been unfortunate? No need to answer. You’d rather complain, be negative and not recognise any improvements, yet can’t wait to praise rivals who have been far more fortunate.

First of all I was never a winger. Always played in goal.
Secondly you inferred all that from my post how?
Thirdly why put inanity like "no need to answer" in your post?
Fourth when did I praise rivals?
Finally I stated a fact which pinched you. And you ended up posting this whiny BS.

Tom Cato · Feb 29, 2020

Foxbatt said:
We were good after a decent start. Yes the 10 men did help but lets beat Everton next week. I still do not like the parallel two midfield players. Against better teams we have been found out.

We keep beating better teams though. catch-22

BestRed · Feb 29, 2020

Hoof The Ball said:
We were very fortunate not to concede in the first 15 mins; numerous times, in fact. Yes, we later played much better, especially vs. ten men, but it'd be foolish to simply forget that it wasn't 90 minutes of swashbuckling football and defensive solidarity.

RedBanker said:
No one will accept or admit this. It's not fashionable.

So what, thats what happens in football, two teams out on the pitch, so its not unheard of for the other team to have the odd chance too. Even at the height of our success under Fergie, we didn't win every game without conceding any chances or goals. Basically, it comes with the territory when playing attacking football. The alternative is playing the safe boring shite we had under van Gaal. Not for me!

jamesjimmybyrondean · Feb 29, 2020

It's too early to tell though. Our problem isn't beating lower opposition teams but that we have trouble facing teams with a low block. The last team we faced like that was Wolves and it was still a glaring problem even with Bruno in the team. Another problem I think we have but people rarely talk about is how we're not so good at passing from the back when teams play a high press. This also has not changed as the problem was still evident in the first half ahaunst a fresh Watford

Stepney73 · Feb 29, 2020

We need more consistent quality upfront for a start.

In the summer at least 3 attacking options are needed and players like James,ighalo,mata(for 1 more season)should be options off the bench with better quality starting week in week out.

Goalkeepers we are good
Defenders we are good.
Midfeild we need 1 quality player in for strength in depth plus rotation etc.

A good summer with 3-4 in and the usual suspects shipped out then we can start looking at challenging again.

If we do have a good summer window but are miles away come November the we need to look at the managers position as the rebuild excuse can no longer be used.

We are not there yet but not a million miles off either.

passing-wind · Feb 29, 2020

Mart1974 said:
2 things I noticed from last night's game even when it was 11 v 11. 1. Bruno can pick a pass into a crowded area. 2. Ighalo can receive a ball, hold up and bring other players in. I think both things give me a sense of optimism I haven't had for a while.

Which highlights how far we've fallen, what's mentioned is a basic attribute of any decent average team. Talk of us being some kind of reformed force should settle until there's more consistency.

Hoof the ball · Feb 29, 2020

BestRed said:
So what, thats what happens in football, two teams out on the pitch, so its not unheard of for the other team to have the odd chance too. Even at the height of our success under Fergie, we didn't win every game without conceding any chances or goals. Basically, it comes with the territory when playing attacking football. The alternative is playing the safe boring shite we had under van Gaal. Not for me!

If we constantly played expansive football, you'd have a point. However, we concede clear cut chances very easily even whilst playing conservatively. There are still organisational issues in terms of defending on the transition. Opposition teams are able to create overloads too often against us in both wide and central areas on the counter-attack, and we do sometimes get fortunate that the opposition don't punish us more. Whilst I do concede that attacking teams, by nature, are open to counter-attacks more often, I don't necessarily see us as an outright attacking team. We're much more conservative than other top teams with the ball; we play fewer risky passes in general, and when we do, there's mostly men behind the ball.

I don't think the issue is as simple as the defenders needing to defend better either. Good defending is a team responsibility. When the collective defends well on the transition, the actual defence itself is less relied upon.

BestRed · Feb 29, 2020

Hoof The Ball said:
If we constantly played expansive football, you'd have a point. However, we concede clear cut chances very easily even whilst playing conservatively. There are still organisational issues in terms of defending on the transition. Opposition teams are able to create overloads too often against us in both wide and central areas on the counter-attack, and we do sometimes get fortunate that the opposition don't punish us more. Whilst I do concede that attacking teams, by nature, are open to counter-attacks more often, I don't necessarily see us as an outright attacking team. We're much more conservative than other top teams with the ball; we play fewer risky passes in general, and when we do, there's mostly men behind the ball.

I don't think the issue is as simple as the defenders needing to defend better either. Good defending is a team responsibility. When the collective defends well on the transition, the actual defence itself is less relied upon.

Listen I take your point regards the team as a whole having to be better prepared and able to handle attacks from the opposition. But that is something I think will come in time, possibly with the addition of out and out dm covering the defence more consistently. The team is still developing in that regards, but I think we'll get there.

But in terms of the other night against Brugge, from memory I think they had 2 chances worth talking about all game, with the big one coming directly as a consequence of us attacking them and creating chances from the off.

And while I agree with you we're not there yet consistently as an attacking outfit, I thought it was a real step in the right direction and hope its a sign of things to come. I would rather play this way more often and take our chances with the odd counter attack on us, if it meant more of the same.

Amadaeus · Feb 29, 2020

ReddBalls said:
Still not the same squad, which was your point.

Withnail said:
They absolutely aren't good enough yet.

Garner is too young and lightweight, I'm not sure Chong will ever be good enough, Gomes hadn't really impressed and Greenwood is being eased in quite sensibly.

As for the other point none of AWB, Maguire, Fred, James or Fernandes were in team that came second and McTominay didn't play much.

Thats the backbone of the current team.
@ReddBalls has already listed the significant number of players who've left.

You can say what you like but it isn't the same team at all.

Any team can go on a run for a short period of time especially with new manager bounce and the weight of Jose off their backs but it means nothing given the subsequent crash.

It seems I am just repeating myself at this point. A lot of players he listed were bit part players as to try to produce a list that tried to proved his point. Fact shows that majority of the team that were second, still plays here at United. In that context, it is more of the same team than it isn’t. They have developed and we have added some players that improved upon the players that have departed. As such, it is a team that is familiar with a second place finish and a team that should be in the third or second in the table.

Not any team can go on a 10 plus winning streak. That is not a short period of time :lol:

Moreover, these players are good enough. It is individual that don’t believe they are , are the ones that will stifle their growth. Especially if they reason for them playing is that we are supposed to have a thin squad :lol:

. If we had a thin squad they will see much more minutes as they are talented enough to play. I didn’t even mention the likes of laird, Hannibal Meijbal and players like Smalling and Sanchez who we loaned out. If our squad was thin, we would recall these players as well.

VeevaVee · Feb 29, 2020

As if Colin has gone and done a #turningpoint thread

Rish Sawhney · Feb 29, 2020

RedBanker said:
No one will accept or admit this. It's not fashionable.

That’s because it’s not true. They had one chance from a Romero bunch straight to an attacker. And one half chance where Maguire fell defending a long ball that Bailey cleaned up. Am I missing something? What other chances did they have?

Rish Sawhney · Feb 29, 2020

Amadaeus said:
It seems I am just repeating myself at this point. A lot of players he listed were bit part players as to try to produce a list that tried to proved his point. Fact shows that majority of the team that were second, still plays here at United. In that context, it is more of the same team than it isn’t. They have developed and we have added some players that improved upon the players that have departed. As such, it is a team that is familiar with a second place finish and a team that should be in the third or second in the table.

Not any team can go on a 10 plus winning streak. That is not a short period of time Moreover, these players are good enough. It is individual that don’t believe they are , are the ones that will stifle their growth. Especially if they reason for them playing is that we are supposed to have a thin squad . If we had a thin squad they will see much more minutes as they are talented enough to play. I didn’t even mention the likes of laird, Hannibal Meijbal and players like Smalling and Sanchez who we loaned out. If our squad was thin, we would recall these players as well.

Smalling, Lukaku/Zlatan, Valencia, Young, Sanchez in the second of of the season, Herrera were all first choice players. That’s half the team right there. Stop talking shit mate.

Withnail · Feb 29, 2020

Amadaeus said:
It seems I am just repeating myself at this point. A lot of players he listed were bit part players as to try to produce a list that tried to proved his point. Fact shows that majority of the team that were second, still plays here at United. In that context, it is more of the same team than it isn’t. They have developed and we have added some players that improved upon the players that have departed. As such, it is a team that is familiar with a second place finish and a team that should be in the third or second in the table.

Not any team can go on a 10 plus winning streak. That is not a short period of time Moreover, these players are good enough. It is individual that don’t believe they are , are the ones that will stifle their growth. Especially if they reason for them playing is that we are supposed to have a thin squad . If we had a thin squad they will see much more minutes as they are talented enough to play. I didn’t even mention the likes of laird, Hannibal Meijbal and players like Smalling and Sanchez who we loaned out. If our squad was thin, we would recall these players as well.

Half of the first team that came second is gone.

Even if you look at the squad the majority of them have left the club or have been loaned out. There are only 16 out of that 35 left so you're wrong.

I really don't know what to say beyond that but you laugh away to yourself there.

Amadaeus · Feb 29, 2020

Rish Sawhney said:
Smalling, Lukaku/Zlatan, Valencia, Young, Sanchez in the second of of the season, Herrera were all first choice players. That’s half the team right there. Stop talking shit mate.

Withnail said:
Half of the first team that came second is gone.

Even if you look at the squad the majority of them have left the club or have been loaned out. There are only 16 out of that 35 left so you're wrong.

I really don't know what to say beyond that but you laugh away to yourself there.

I didn’t want to waste my time counting because I know I m right. But, I did it anyway, so I can end this pointless argument.

If you had just count the list you provide in the last page 22(-4) (-4 indicate loan players) players remains, 13 left, you would have realized that is not half nor is it the majority that left. The majority still remains.

Fussball13251 · Feb 29, 2020

Sassy Colin said:
You just contradicted yourself

Do you even understand what that means? Anyways it shouldn't matter if he's from F.C. Copenhagen or whatever if he comes in and improves results he should play. Results improve with McTominay in the team. He makes the attack a bit better. He just needed improved players around him. When you are passing to Andrea and Lingerd who are constantly giving the ball away.... But he still improved things whenever he was on.

/watch?v=NXeRGT7UlTo There is only so much you can do when your other midfielders don't look interested and are constantly gifting the ball back to the opposition. Not McTominay or Poga's fault. These are valuable players. Lingard hasn't been good enough Andreas to a lesser extent.

Rafaeldagold · Feb 29, 2020

We’re really not that good at all. Our manager isn’t up to the standard we need & just because other teams are having awful seasons too doesn’t mean we should accept being close to 4th as acceptable.

It’s be a big mistake if we kept with Ole just because we scrape 4th/5th- we can do so much better

Withnail · Feb 29, 2020

Amadaeus said:
I didn’t want to waste my time counting because I know I m right. But, I did it anyway, so I can end this pointless argument.

If you had just count the list you provide in the last page 22(-4) (-4 indicate loan players) players remains, 13 left, you would have realized that is not half nor is it the majority that left. The majority still remains.

You're counting the players who aren't at the club due to being loaned out.

It's actually 7 on loan and I don't believe any have a future at the club but for some reason according to you they contribute towards the current team's mentality somehow.

Bizarre but I'm going to stop now because I might as well be talking to the wall.

Rish Sawhney · Feb 29, 2020

Amadaeus said:
I didn’t want to waste my time counting because I know I m right. But, I did it anyway, so I can end this pointless argument.

If you had just count the list you provide in the last page 22(-4) (-4 indicate loan players) players remains, 13 left, you would have realized that is not half nor is it the majority that left. The majority still remains.

Now you’re mixing up arguments. Yeah more than half the squad might remain, but more than half the first team is gone. Some of the squad players have bigger roles now and more players and youngsters are added. But the fact remains this is not the team that came in second. Only De Gea is the undisputed first teamer that remains. Shaw was behind Young, Matic isn’t first choice now, Pogba has barely played this season, Martial and Rashford were rotated and second choice to Sanchez. Lingard played a decent amount but he’s not first choice now either.

You’ve set up an arbitrary standard that “not being the same team” means more than 50% of the squad needs to be gone which is just disingenuous. Not only that we’re the youngest team in the PL this year whereas in 2017 we were one of the oldest. Anyways I know what you want to prove here but I’m not buying it.

PS: that’s ignoring the ridiculous notion of somehow counting the loaned out players as still part of this team.

A-man · Feb 29, 2020

I’m not sure what you’re debating really... If you take the 11 players that played most minutes 2017/18 and the 11 that played most minutes this season, it looks like this, most played minutes first
2017/18
DDG
Matic
Lukaku
Valencia
Smalling
Young
Pogba
Jones
Mata
Lingard
Rashford

This season:
DDG
Maguire
Lindelof
AWB
James
Rashford
Fred
Martial
McT
Pereira
Shaw

Only Rashford and DDG make it to both lists. Lindelof and Martial almost made it to the 17/18 list but it is clearly a total new team compared to two years ago.

Amadaeus · Feb 29, 2020

Rish Sawhney said:
Now you’re mixing up arguments. Yeah more than half the squad might remain, but more than half the first team is gone. Some of the squad players have bigger roles now and more players and youngsters are added. But the fact remains this is not the team that came in second. Only De Gea is the undisputed first teamer that remains. Shaw was behind Young, Matic isn’t first choice now, Pogba has barely played this season, Martial and Rashford were rotated and second choice to Sanchez. Lingard played a decent amount but he’s not first choice now either.

You’ve set up an arbitrary standard that “not being the same team” means more than 50% of the squad needs to be gone which is just disingenuous. Not only that we’re the youngest team in the PL this year whereas in 2017 we were one of the oldest. Anyways I know what you want to prove here but I’m not buying it.

PS: that’s ignoring the ridiculous notion of somehow counting the loaned out players as still part of this team.

The argument was initially about having a thin squad. You are the one that didn’t understand the basis of this argument. I proved that the majority of the team still remained from that second place team and that we do have depth, which is the point of this argument. Not about having a strong or a weak first eleven.

It is good that you realized that the standard I set was about having the same team, not first eleven. If you had understood that from the beginning, you and @Withnail would not have to be proven wrong. Anything else outside this context would just be trying to shift the goalpost to suit your narrative.

Withnail · Feb 29, 2020

Amadaeus said:
The argument was initially about having a thin squad. You are the one that didn’t understand the basis of this argument. I proved that the majority of the team still remained from that second place team and that we do have depth, which is the point of this argument. Not about having a strong or a weak first eleven.

It is good that you realized that the standard I set was about having the same team, not first eleven. If you had understood that from the beginning, you and @Withnail would not have to be proven wrong. Anything else outside this context would just be trying to shift the goalpost to suit your narrative.

Amazing!

Rish Sawhney · Feb 29, 2020

Amadaeus said:
The argument was initially about having a thin squad. You are the one that didn’t understand the basis of this argument. I proved that the majority of the team still remained from that second place team and that we do have depth, which is the point of this argument. Not about having a strong or a weak first eleven.

It is good that you realized that the standard I set was about having the same team, not first eleven. If you had understood that from the beginning, you and @Withnail would not have to be proven wrong. Anything else outside this context would just be trying to shift the goalpost to suit your narrative.

You're right we're the 2nd or 3rd best squad and our lord and saviour would have been challenging for the title with it.

The problem isn't always the numbers its also the quality in those numbers. We had Andreas, Lingard and Mata as our number 10s. So yeah we were (pre Bruno) thin in that area even if we had 3 players over 23 for that spot. You've proved jack shit apart from putting your fingers in your ears and stubbornly repeating that the majority of the team remained from the second place team which means nothing if the regulars are gone and the best player is injured for most of the season.

We're actually quite good

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