Fred

acnumber9 · Mar 8, 2021

Litch said:
TBH you could apply the same thought for a lot of stats in football. The classic is assists.....

True. Assists can either be a great piece of play or a fortunate touch where the hard work was done by the goal scorer. Passing accuracy is considerably worse though.

Bwuk · Mar 8, 2021

Bebestation said:
This shows what Fred was doing at 4mins.

Maybe his attacking game is not great but I think defensively he is a valuable part of our squad.

I watched that clip and I'm not convinced the guy speaking on it has ever played football.

He's giving Fred/McTominay credit for tracking their man. It's basic and is to be expected.

Fred is a real weak point in this side. He can't be trusted as a sole #6 to allow to us to stick someone more creative in the pivot with him, and he isn't good enough on the ball to be the creator in the pivot. Against the better sides it leaves Bruno with more to do as he's picking up the two 6s slack.

Litch · Mar 8, 2021

tomaldinho1 said:
Issue here is if Kante is playing 2x the amount of passes Fred is and Fred has similar stats, that's a better reflection of Kante. The system will dictate a lot here over the above stats. I'd say Hojberg is in a similar system and has a similar role so that's a good comparison and Fred stacks up well there (I do rate Hojberg) and has pretty similar output from your stat selection.

Bruno's misplaced passes numbers are criminal and just emblematic of our setup, the washing machine tactic of rinse repeat passing is how I term it. Against teams who attack us and keep the ball it's a sensible approach to utilise out forwards but it's ineffective against lower block teams.

I also think context is important and it's so much easier when you are playing in a team that's winning. No different than scoring goals in a team that's creating lots of chances or defending when your teams get 70% of the ball....

LovelyLittlePanda · Mar 8, 2021

He lost the ball as many times as he won it. So what's his use?

Lacks the physicality to be a proper destroyer and lacks the technique to be a good deep lying playmaker.

For the people that make the Herrera comparison: Do you guys really think a club like PSG would take him now? I don't even think mid table French/Italian clubs would be interested.

He's our biggest weakness, we won't ever win the league with him as starter. I'd be delighted if his replacement was the only signing next summer.

Litch · Mar 8, 2021

Bwuk said:
I watched that clip and I'm not convinced the guy speaking on it has ever played football.

He's giving Fred/McTominay credit for tracking their man. It's basic and is to be expected.

Fred is a real weak point in this side. He can't be trusted as a sole #6 to allow to us to stick someone more creative in the pivot with him, and he isn't good enough on the ball to be the creator in the pivot. Against the better sides it leaves Bruno with more to do as he's picking up the two 6s slack.

You must be Ole out then for consistently picking the weak link? For such a weak link, his win rationale is probably not far off the highest in the team. We lose less games when he plays but I'm guessing that must be a fluke.....

Litch · Mar 8, 2021

LovelyLittlePanda said:
He lost the ball as many times as he won it. So what's his use?

Lacks the physicality to be a proper destroyer and lacks the technique to be a good deep lying playmaker.

For the people that make the Herrera comparison: Do you guys really think a club like PSG would take him now? I don't even think mid table French/Italian clubs would be interested.

He's our biggest weakness, we won't ever win the league with him as starter. I'd be delighted if his replacement was the only signing next summer.

You know they signed Gueye from Everton don't you....

Matt851 · Mar 8, 2021

justsomebloke said:
I may be wrong, but I really think the criticism of Fred's passing is a bit overblown. True, he makes some bad passes, but the statistics indicate his passing accuracy really isn't that bad. It's actually the best of all of our midfielders except Matic.

His possession loss frequency is a little bit worse than McT, Matic and DvdB, but not much. And it's WAY better than Pogba's, to say nothing of Bruno's.

All in all, if misplaced passes is what you're worried about, then Fred and Matic are the best options we have in CM. And if lost possession is what you're worried about, there's not that much of a difference between Fred and other options (and Pogba should be the player you really want to keep out of the lineup....). Of course, these things have to be weighed against other contributions, which is why Pogba and Bruno is in the lineup. But that goes for Fred too. The shortcomings pointed out in this tread are not major liabilities, compared to what other options bring. And against that you have to put his contributions to pressing, defence and energy. He's also a player who makes a not insignificant contribution in the final third.

Player....................Poss lost/90.......Pass acc.....Passes final 3rd/90 (big chances created)
Fred........................11.4......................87%............17.3 (5)
Matic.......................10.2.....................91%............19.2 (2)
McTominay............10.5......................85%............12.7 (3)
Pogba.....................16.8......................84%............21.4 (1)
Bruno.....................21.7......................77%.............29.7 (21)
van de Beek.............9.4.......................85%............15.6 (3)

And for comparison, some players from other teams:

Player....................Poss lost/90.......Pass acc.....Passes final 3rd/90 (big chances created)
Rodri.......................9.7.........................91%.................20.1 (4)
Partey.....................11.1.......................88%.................19.4 (1)
Xhaka.....................9.6..........................89%.................16.9 (2)
Kante......................12.0.......................87%..................14.8 (3)
Kovacic..................9.8..........................91%..................20.6 (5)
Højbjerg..................11.3.......................88%..................14.9 (5)
Wijnaldum..............7.5..........................91%..................14.6 (1)
Ndidi.......................9.8..........................87%...................7.5 (2)
Tielemans...............15.6........................83%..................18.9 (4)
Doucoure................10.2........................85%...................11.5 (2)

I'd say his performance is generally within the statistical parameters you find among top team regulars in more or less comparable roles.

Personally i find use of these sort of stats in isolation quite frustrating. I tend to prefer to rely on the eye test and in depth analysis. As you say miss placed passes is only one but of the equation and there are clearly issues with the stats. For example, if a player plays a pass behind the receiving player but they manage to recover it i think it still counts as a completed pass.

Comparing fred to the likes of pogba and bruno on pass completion is clearly a waste of time given how progressive their passing is in comparison and he isnt a proper dm like ndidi

Its quite obvious fred isnt good enough at anyone thing to start for us if we are going to challenge for the title although he could be a squad optopn. Its not just his passing but also his first touch is too loose to be comfortable when he gets pressed.

simplyared · Mar 8, 2021

Strange in a way when I was slagging him off a while back posters were heaping praise over the player. Over the last month or so I'd be inclined to accept he's been decent yet most posters are now ready to write him off. I believe he's improved. He certainly brings more to the table now. However whether it's good enough is another question.

Himannv · Mar 8, 2021

I think he's improved as well. He was even worse on the ball before and he's made some strides in the right direction. He's always excellent off the ball, just needs to do better when he has it.

MadDogg · Mar 9, 2021

tomaldinho1 said:
Issue here is if Kante is playing 2x the amount of passes Fred is and Fred has similar stats, that's a better reflection of Kante. The system will dictate a lot here over the above stats. I'd say Hojberg is in a similar system and has a similar role so that's a good comparison and Fred stacks up well there (I do rate Hojberg) and has pretty similar output from your stat selection.

That certainly isn't the case though. In fact their overall passing stats are almost identical going by FBref - they both complete 55 passes out of 63 attempts per 90 minutes. Once you dig into it Fred actually comes out on top quite easily, with more longer passes, more progressive passes, more passes into the final third and into the box and more passes leading to shots.

Fred has dropped in form over the last two months or so (although I'd say only two or three recent games have been actually poor), but overall his lack of passing ability is significantly over-stated in here. The amount of people who constantly say that Fred is a terrible passer but then turn around and are happy with McTominay amazes me. Even in this match where Fred was apparently terrible and McTominay was apparently good (or even great) there was little between them. Normally there's a significant difference and it's Fred who comes out on top.

Litch · Mar 9, 2021

MadDogg said:
That certainly isn't the case though. In fact their overall passing stats are almost identical going by FBref - they both complete 55 passes out of 63 attempts per 90 minutes. Once you dig into it Fred actually comes out on top quite easily, with more longer passes, more progressive passes, more passes into the final third and into the box and more passes leading to shots.

Fred has dropped in form over the last two months or so (although I'd say only two or three recent games have been actually poor), but overall his lack of passing ability is significantly over-stated in here. The amount of people who constantly say that Fred is a terrible passer but then turn around and are happy with McTominay amazes me. Even in this match where Fred was apparently terrible and McTominay was apparently good (or even great) there was little between them. Normally there's a significant difference and it's Fred who comes out on top.

Agree but who would the forum use as their scapegoat then for 'never winning the league....'? Some players the vultures are always circling, waiting for a poor game or drop in forum to comment. People look for the poor pass yet ignore everything else cause who else will they have to blame? The irony is if those think Ole is the answer, why cause he keeps playing Fred in all the big games, the very player we can't win the league with!!
You see when Fred plays, we generally win or at least don't lose. Unpopular opinion but maybe teams target him because of this. Look at his CV for Utd in the big games inc Europe, probably Utd most consistent player under Ole.

Like said, how can he be a weak link when he plays, we generally win more so than any other player pre Bruno?

Bebestation · Mar 9, 2021

Bwuk said:
I watched that clip and I'm not convinced the guy speaking on it has ever played football.

He's giving Fred/McTominay credit for tracking their man. It's basic and is to be expected.

Fred is a real weak point in this side. He can't be trusted as a sole #6 to allow to us to stick someone more creative in the pivot with him, and he isn't good enough on the ball to be the creator in the pivot. Against the better sides it leaves Bruno with more to do as he's picking up the two 6s slack.

I mean to be fair, me and you have probably not played professional football either.

https://theathletic.co.uk/2434502/2...ed-and-mctominay-helped-man-united-beat-city/

An article by the athletic at how Fred & Mctomminay helped us to stop City aswell.

tomaldinho1 · Mar 9, 2021

MadDogg said:
That certainly isn't the case though. In fact their overall passing stats are almost identical going by FBref - they both complete 55 passes out of 63 attempts per 90 minutes. Once you dig into it Fred actually comes out on top quite easily, with more longer passes, more progressive passes, more passes into the final third and into the box and more passes leading to shots.

Fred has dropped in form over the last two months or so (although I'd say only two or three recent games have been actually poor), but overall his lack of passing ability is significantly over-stated in here. The amount of people who constantly say that Fred is a terrible passer but then turn around and are happy with McTominay amazes me. Even in this match where Fred was apparently terrible and McTominay was apparently good (or even great) there was little between them. Normally there's a significant difference and it's Fred who comes out on top.

Which is why I said ‘if’. I’m a Fred fan so not sure if you’ve mistaken me with another poster, I just want him to tidy up his touch as it’s where I think he causes himself the most issues. I also think he should be trusted with sitting on his own against any of the lower table teams.

He’s far from perfect but it’s be hard to upgrade on him without spending a huge amount of money.

Bwuk · Mar 9, 2021

Bebestation said:
I mean to be fair, me and you have probably not played professional football either.

https://theathletic.co.uk/2434502/2...ed-and-mctominay-helped-man-united-beat-city/

An article by the athletic at how Fred & Mctomminay helped us to stop City aswell.

I haven't played professionally no but it's not exactly rocket science for a midfielder to follow their man.

I don't have a an athletic subscription but even the photograph they've used - McTominay is on Gundogan, Fred on KdB and Bruno on Rodri.

Bebestation · Mar 9, 2021

Bwuk said:
I haven't played professionally no but it's not exactly rocket science for a midfielder to follow their man.

I don't have a an athletic subscription but even the photograph they've used - McTominay is on Gundogan, Fred on KdB and Bruno on Rodri.

I dont think its neccerialy as simple as following your main.

Man city are known to have their creativity on De Bryune and David silva last season and this season with De Bryune and Gundogan.

They could easily be marked or have man markers but what happens is that wider players like Mahrez and Sterling keep their width to occupy the fullbacks so that it creates half spaces between RCB and RB (david Silvas old space or between the LCB and LB (De Bryunes main space). From that space they create chances such as crosses to the opposite flank which scores tap ins etc.

Fred and Mctomminay defended consistently at the half spaces whilst Mahrez and Sterling were handled by Shaw and Wan Bissaka respectively.

Sure we can say that anyone can simply track their man - yet this is the leagues best team and players who killed every other opposition this season because they didnt have players performing like AWB, Shaw, Mctominay and Fred doing their bits to create stability defensively.

It's being talked about by a clear tactical decision that Ole maid rather than just an individual quality- either way I just don't really see why Fred should be a disappointment against City when he did his duty as the type of player he is. Complaining that he isnt making passes like he is our replacement for Pogba is not realistic and unfair in my opinion.

Falcow · Mar 9, 2021

LovelyLittlePanda said:
He lost the ball as many times as he won it. So what's his use?

Lacks the physicality to be a proper destroyer and lacks the technique to be a good deep lying playmaker.

For the people that make the Herrera comparison: Do you guys really think a club like PSG would take him now? I don't even think mid table French/Italian clubs would be interested.

He's our biggest weakness, we won't ever win the league with him as starter. I'd be delighted if his replacement was the only signing next summer.

Those of us who see Fred's value will point to our loss stats when he is not in the side. We have lost 7 times this season, 5 of those were games that he didnt play. So when he doesnt play we tend to lose, biggest weakness my arse.

He has been one of our better performers this last 2 years. Hasn't been great last few games but it seem he is not allowed to have a poor run of form, Martial, DDG, Rashford, Matic etc have all have poor runs of form far longer than the last 4 or 5 games. Also yes he gives the ball away but no more than anyone else (again he has been poor last few games) the stats back that up. fecking sick of the shit he continually gets despite being our hardest working player.

Falcow · Mar 9, 2021

Bebestation said:
I dont think its neccerialy as simple as following your main.

Man city are known to have their creativity on De Bryune and David silva last season and this season with De Bryune and Gundogan.

They could easily be marked or have man markers but what happens is that wider players like Mahrez and Sterling keep their width to occupy the fullbacks so that it creates half spaces between RCB and RB (david Silvas old space or between the LCB and LB (De Bryunes main space). From that space they create chances such as crosses to the opposite flank which scores tap ins etc.

Fred and Mctomminay defended consistently at the half spaces whilst Mahrez and Sterling were handled by Shaw and Wan Bissaka respectively.

Sure we can say that anyone can simply track their man - yet this is the leagues best team and players who killed every other opposition this season because they didnt have players performing like AWB, Shaw, Mctominay and Fred doing their bits to create stability defensively.

It's being talked about by a clear tactical decision that Ole maid rather than just an individual quality- either way I just don't really see why Fred should be a disappointment against City when he did his duty as the type of player he is. Complaining that he isnt making passes like he is our replacement for Pogba is not realistic and unfair in my opinion.

Well said.

Falcow · Mar 9, 2021

MadDogg said:
That certainly isn't the case though. In fact their overall passing stats are almost identical going by FBref - they both complete 55 passes out of 63 attempts per 90 minutes. Once you dig into it Fred actually comes out on top quite easily, with more longer passes, more progressive passes, more passes into the final third and into the box and more passes leading to shots.

Fred has dropped in form over the last two months or so (although I'd say only two or three recent games have been actually poor), but overall his lack of passing ability is significantly over-stated in here. The amount of people who constantly say that Fred is a terrible passer but then turn around and are happy with McTominay amazes me. Even in this match where Fred was apparently terrible and McTominay was apparently good (or even great) there was little between them. Normally there's a significant difference and it's Fred who comes out on top.

Excellent post and I'm also always amazed however the bias people hold against certain players explains it.

Agree also on Mctominay, a player I like and another who always gives his all but he is much poorer at passing the ball than Fred, incredible that people dont see this.

OmarUnited4ever · Mar 9, 2021

Fred does offer excellent work rate and defensive contributions in the midle of the park, but his passing is not good enough, but for now he is crucial to the team and with that I am happy with his performances overall this season.

I also think Mctominay is similar to Fred in terms work rate and defensive contributions, and his passing isn't the best as well, the one thing he is better at than Fred is scoring goals only ..

Matt851 · Mar 9, 2021

Falcow said:
Those of us who see Fred's value will point to our loss stats when he is not in the side. We have lost 7 times this season, 5 of those were games that he didnt play. So when he doesnt play we tend to lose, biggest weakness my arse.

He has been one of our better performers this last 2 years. Hasn't been great last few games but it seem he is not allowed to have a poor run of form, Martial, DDG, Rashford, Matic etc have all have poor runs of form far longer than the last 4 or 5 games. Also yes he gives the ball away but no more than anyone else (again he has been poor last few games) the stats back that up. fecking sick of the shit he continually gets despite being our hardest working player.

He is undoubtedly hard working but that doesnt mean he is good enough to start for us. Lee cattermole for example was also hardworking

I personally think mctominay is a better player and is also still at an age where he can reasonably be expected to improve. His passing is poor, probably sinilar to freds but he has more upsides - his physicality, better first touch and ability to score goals. The problem with fred is he isnt good enough positionally or defensively to be a defensive midfielder or on the to play further up the pitch. His energy often gets him into good positions going forward but they are wasted om him given his inability to shoot or find a through ball

Falcow · Mar 9, 2021

Matt851 said:
He is undoubtedly hard working but that doesnt mean he is good enough to start for us. Lee cattermole for example was also hardworking

I personally think mctominay is a better player and is also still at an age where he can reasonably be expected to improve. His passing is poor, probably sinilar to freds but he has more upsides - his physicality, better first touch and ability to score goals. The problem with fred is he isnt good enough positionally or defensively to be a defensive midfielder or on the to play further up the pitch. His energy often gets him into good positions going forward but they are wasted om him given his inability to shoot or find a through ball

Roy keane was also hardworking.....neither comparison is a good one.

I admit he his performances of late aren't good enough but in general I think they are, if we can find a better midfielder that does a better job for us then I have no problem with that. Rice maybe, cant think of too many more, at least in the PL. Maybe in european leagues but my knowledge outside the 4 or 5 big European clubs would be pretty limited.

The Irish Connection · Mar 9, 2021

Good to see some people supporting Fred. His work rate for the team is undoubted and I would have him ahead of pogba in 90% of games. He is sloppy at times but to say his passing is poor is plain wrong. He can pass it well off both feet and also his shooting is better than most think. But his real strength is covering ground and pressing opponents well.

LovelyLittlePanda · Mar 9, 2021

Falcow said:
Those of us who see Fred's value will point to our loss stats when he is not in the side. We have lost 7 times this season, 5 of those were games that he didnt play. So when he doesnt play we tend to lose, biggest weakness my arse.

He has been one of our better performers this last 2 years. Hasn't been great last few games but it seem he is not allowed to have a poor run of form, Martial, DDG, Rashford, Matic etc have all have poor runs of form far longer than the last 4 or 5 games. Also yes he gives the ball away but no more than anyone else (again he has been poor last few games) the stats back that up. fecking sick of the shit he continually gets despite being our hardest working player.

When he doesn't play we tend to lose? That's factually not true, and a wrong conclusion of the stat you brought up. The alternative to Fred, McTominay, really doesn't help that argument for Fred. They're both weak links.

I look at all our games and don't see how their is a causal relationship between him playing and the results.

He has his uses in big games, and yes he's in a bit of slump currently and playing vs Guardiola's/Klopp's pressing machine is always difficult.

The Irish Connection said:
Good to see some people supporting Fred. His work rate for the team is undoubted and I would have him ahead of pogba in 90% of games. He is sloppy at times but to say his passing is poor is plain wrong. He can pass it well off both feet and also his shooting is better than most think. But his real strength is covering ground and pressing opponents well.

90% is quite the number.
What does he offer against the teams that sit back and try to nick a goal on the counter or through a set piece? I can remember quite a few of those games recently. The games where we relied on a (late) miracle from Bruno, Rashford, Pogba, McTominay, Maguire to win it.

His passing through the lines isn't better than Pogba's or a Matic that has a few games in the legs. He's not good in the air, to help us defend set pieces. He's easy to dribble past, I'm sure you've seen the stat/graph on that. Does he create chances for us? When's the last time he had a shot on target or an assist?

Don't get me wrong, I support every player that wears the badge and I hope he does well in every game. I just don't think that running around a lot and winning the ball a few times is enough to be starter for us.

Falcow · Mar 9, 2021

LovelyLittlePanda said:
When he doesn't play we tend to lose? That's factually not true, and a wrong conclusion of the stat you brought up. The alternative to Fred, McTominay, really doesn't help that argument for Fred. They're both weak links.

I look at all our games and don't see how their is a causal relationship between him playing and the results.

He has his uses in big games, and yes he's in a bit of slump currently and playing vs Guardiola's/Klopp's pressing machine is always difficult.

90% is quite the number.
What does he offer against the teams that sit back and try to nick a goal on the counter or through a set piece? I can remember quite a few of those games recently. The games where we relied on a (late) miracle from Bruno, Rashford, Pogba, McTominay, Maguire to win it.

His passing through the lines isn't better than Pogba's or a Matic that has a few games in the legs. He's not good in the air, to help us defend set pieces. He's easy to dribble past, I'm sure you've seen the stat/graph on that. Does he create chances for us? When's the last time he had a shot on target or an assist?

Don't get me wrong, I support every player that wears the badge and I hope he does well in every game. I just don't think that running around a lot and winning the ball a few times is enough to be starter for us.

Not sure how you dont see the link? We lost 7 games this season, he didnt play in 5 of those. Is it that you think that is a coincidence? If so fair enough, we are all entitled to our opinion.....mine is that it ain't no coincidence.

Litch · Mar 9, 2021

Falcow said:
Those of us who see Fred's value will point to our loss stats when he is not in the side. We have lost 7 times this season, 5 of those were games that he didnt play. So when he doesnt play we tend to lose, biggest weakness my arse.

He has been one of our better performers this last 2 years. Hasn't been great last few games but it seem he is not allowed to have a poor run of form, Martial, DDG, Rashford, Matic etc have all have poor runs of form far longer than the last 4 or 5 games. Also yes he gives the ball away but no more than anyone else (again he has been poor last few games) the stats back that up. fecking sick of the shit he continually gets despite being our hardest working player.

Absolutely spot on....

tjb · Mar 9, 2021

OmarUnited4ever said:
Fred does offer excellent work rate and defensive contributions in the midle of the park, but his passing is not good enough, but for now he is crucial to the team and with that I am happy with his performances overall this season.

I also think Mctominay is similar to Fred in terms work rate and defensive contributions, and his passing isn't the best as well, the one thing he is better at than Fred is scoring goals only ..

I don't think hisdefensive contributions are nearly as high as is suggested. It's the reason we don't play him in the sitting role. In combination with his poor technical skills offensively, he's also a poor tackler, has poor strength and balance, and his sense of positioning is below par.

In essence, people who like him, do so simply as a result of him having the work rate and stamina to hassle the opposition....that's not nearly enough, that's not what Kante is/was either.

NZT-One · Mar 9, 2021

Falcow said:
Excellent post and I'm also always amazed however the bias people hold against certain players explains it.

Agree also on Mctominay, a player I like and another who always gives his all but he is much poorer at passing the ball than Fred, incredible that people dont see this.

I agree with that post and I am also a fan of Fred. As I think, enough has been said about his obvious strength, weaknesses and current form, I'd like to another perspective to the workrate topic: I think, the term workrate is a bit undervalued in here by some but I think we all can agree on that a very positive trend started, when McTominay and Fred became our go-to-midfield. Both have good workrate which enables us as a team to play more as a team. Fred will in 1 second hassle the opposition ball carrier near our box and will be in the attacking third 5 seconds later to provide a passing option. We miss workrate in our team because only movement will cause breaks and will challenge a defense.

Of course Matic and Pogba can do way more with the ball, no questions asked but both of them are either incapable or unwilling to put in some necessary shifts. Add Martial to that group, Greenwood as well. Even Rashfords workrate has decreased this season significantly (imo). Shaw and Wan Bissaka pull their own weight, but both are not known for putting the overhours in. Bruno is probably the obvious exception but even he covers mostly very high areas when we are in possession.

That is not criticism at these players - a team doesn't need to consist purely out of workhorses but having low workrate on so many position will hurt you. It is no wonder we talk about "the movement" of Cavani or James, in bits also with DVB. We need a certain baseline of work within the team, if we "allow ourself" luxury players like Pogba, we have to bring somebody in to keep the balance. Especially when we play our transition-based-approach we have to have players on the pitch that are good in transitioning - that not only applies when in attack.

I agree with both sides of argument, having both McTominay and Fred will cause some certain issues, but thats the same with Pogba and Matic (as we have seen it multiple times over the last years). We have to mix it up or find creative solutions. I also agree, that Fred is a player that is upgrade-able. But lets be honest - I think there are at least 5 positions where the pain is at least just as big before we have to upgrade Fred. He is not holding us back, he might not be the greatest strength of this team, but who is?

Does anybody know a place, where statistics like "distance covered" or "distance covered in sprints" can be found? I think, this statistic would help Fred a lot for his public reputation...

Redldn22 · Mar 9, 2021

Fred is the worst regular midfielder we've had in the whole Prem era. I can not believe the praise he receives in this thread.

Starts near every game and offers nothing beside energy, and there are several players in the division who are significantly better in this regard.

Doesn't start for most of the top ten, including Everton, West Ham, Spurs and Leicester. Possibly he starts for Arsenal but even then Xhaka and Ceballos are both far better on the ball so I dunno.

Matt851 · Mar 9, 2021

tjb said:
I don't think hisdefensive contributions are nearly as high as is suggested. It's the reason we don't play him in the sitting role. In combination with his poor technical skills offensively, he's also a poor tackler, has poor strength and balance, and his sense of positioning is below par.

In essence, people who like him, do so simply as a result of him having the work rate and stamina to hassle the opposition....that's not nearly enough, that's not what Kante is/was either.

Exactly

He is a decent player but given he isnt strong going forward, defensively or in terms of controlling possesion then its hard to see how he is good enough for our first team

Some people are obviously impressed by his busyness but i would rather have someone who is able after the ball thereby negating the need to be so busy

Litch · Mar 9, 2021

Redldn22 said:
Fred is the worst regular midfielder we've had in the whole Prem era. I can not believe the praise he receives in this thread.

Starts near every game and offers nothing beside energy, and there are several players in the division who are significantly better in this regard.

Doesn't start for most of the top ten, including Everton, West Ham, Spurs and Leicester. Possibly he starts for Arsenal but even then Xhaka and Ceballos are both far better on the ball so I dunno.

Absolutely ridiculous.....

tjb · Mar 9, 2021

Matt851 said:
Exactly

He is a decent player but given he isnt strong going forward, defensively or in terms of controlling possesion then its hard to see how he is good enough for our first team

Some people are obviously impressed by his busyness but i would rather have someone who is able after the ball thereby negating the need to be so busy

I don't think people truly understand how bad our centre midfield really is. Maguire and Lindelof can carry and hold the ball better than any midfielder we have outside of Pogba. Maguire constantly has to try and recycle possession as a result of us having players who cannot do it. They don't have the agility to make quick turns to shield the ball, the composure to pick a good pass, the touch to take on passes under pressure or the technique to move possession quick enough. AWB and Shaw sometimes have to carry and hold possession due to our forwards tucking in, they are able to hold off pressure, recieve balls under pressure and move it quickly; which is ironic as they are supposed to be defenders ( AWB is chastised for his poor offensive skills, but even he can do this). It's the reason we struggle to keep the ball in big games, yet they are praised for being able to plug the holes they cause by not being able to play in the first place.

The most annoying part of this is that people credit them for sitting deep to protect our defence. Ironically, the reason this occurs is a result of our midfielders lacking the tackling ability, strength, balance, positioning or touch to regain and retain possession higher up the pitch. As a result they retreat....very different from purposely safeguarding the defence. It's ironic really. Our team is usually able to keep clean sheets in these big games due to great defensive showcases from our defenders, our attackers can muster fluid counter attacking opportunities from nothing; yet our midfield, which fails to relieve the defence of having to deal with pressure, can't build up play and consistently fails to find more advanced players due to poor passing consistently get celebrated for plugging gaps their poor play created. Bruno gets attacked for trying to create chances from difficult situations due to recieving the ball ( rarely) in his own half, Rashford and Greenwood get chastised for chasing shadows in these games and making rarely any offensive impact.

Even in the easier games, where teams drop off. Our midfielders still take responsibility on the ball off themselves by consistently playing the ball back to Maguire, expecting him to push the ball up the pitch. They barely offer any offensive support either. Worst of all, in situations when we are countered, whereas even lower sides can depend on their midfield to stop or slow down the progression of the counter, our midfielders manage to open up spaces for the opposition as they don''t have the awareness or intelligence to jockey the opposition into more unsuitable situations that would force them to release possession or play the ball back.

UNITED ACADEMY · Mar 10, 2021

tjb said:
I don't think people truly understand how bad our centre midfield really is. Maguire and Lindelof can carry and hold the ball better than any midfielder we have outside of Pogba. Maguire constantly has to try and recycle possession as a result of us having players who cannot do it. They don't have the agility to make quick turns to shield the ball, the composure to pick a good pass, the touch to take on passes under pressure or the technique to move possession quick enough. AWB and Shaw sometimes have to carry and hold possession due to our forwards tucking in, they are able to hold off pressure, recieve balls under pressure and move it quickly; which is ironic as they are supposed to be defenders ( AWB is chastised for his poor offensive skills, but even he can do this). It's the reason we struggle to keep the ball in big games, yet they are praised for being able to plug the holes they cause by not being able to play in the first place.

The most annoying part of this is that people credit them for sitting deep to protect our defence. Ironically, the reason this occurs is a result of our midfielders lacking the tackling ability, strength, balance, positioning or touch to regain and retain possession higher up the pitch. As a result they retreat....very different from purposely safeguarding the defence. It's ironic really. Our team is usually able to keep clean sheets in these big games due to great defensive showcases from our defenders, our attackers can muster fluid counter attacking opportunities from nothing; yet our midfield, which fails to relieve the defence of having to deal with pressure, can't build up play and consistently fails to find more advanced players due to poor passing consistently get celebrated for plugging gaps their poor play created. Bruno gets attacked for trying to create chances from difficult situations due to recieving the ball ( rarely) in his own half, Rashford and Greenwood get chastised for chasing shadows in these games and making rarely any offensive impact.

Even in the easier games, where teams drop off. Our midfielders still take responsibility on the ball off themselves by consistently playing the ball back to Maguire, expecting him to push the ball up the pitch. They barely offer any offensive support either. Worst of all, in situations when we are countered, whereas even lower sides can depend on their midfield to stop or slow down the progression of the counter, our midfielders manage to open up spaces for the opposition as they don''t have the awareness or intelligence to jockey the opposition into more unsuitable situations that would force them to release possession or play the ball back.

You are right on one way but you are wrong on the other way. If we have Keane, Scholes & Carrick, we would be able to keep the ball much better but doesn't mean we are incapable to keep the ball when playing with Fred & McTominay because another reason why we are unable to keep the ball is because we don't set up based on possession, we set up to play direct by utilising our front four. We could just play like LVG football with McTominay & Fred and able to have 60% possession but what's the purpose. Playing direct means you also have good chances to lose the ball. We just need to improve our movement and positioning especially the front four so they can provide good/easier/effective option for our midfield/Centre back to pass the ball to in order to reduce the giving away the ball cheaply.

OmarUnited4ever · Mar 10, 2021

tjb said:
I don't think hisdefensive contributions are nearly as high as is suggested. It's the reason we don't play him in the sitting role. In combination with his poor technical skills offensively, he's also a poor tackler, has poor strength and balance, and his sense of positioning is below par.

In essence, people who like him, do so simply as a result of him having the work rate and stamina to hassle the opposition....that's not nearly enough, that's not what Kante is/was either.

I am not comparing him to Kante or others, but to his teammates, such as McTominay, Matic & Pogba, compared to them, his defensive contributions are far more than them, and that's why this season, he is crucial to the team, we can only use the players available to us and get results with them

Next season though, yes I think we should improve on him, depends on what Ole will do with whatever funds he will be provided with in the summer, which position would he prioritize and so on, but yes we need to improve on him.

tjb · Mar 10, 2021

UNITED ACADEMY said:
You are right on one way but you are wrong on the other way. If we have Keane, Scholes & Carrick, we would be able to keep the ball much better but doesn't mean we are incapable to keep the ball when playing with Fred & McTominay because another reason why we are unable to keep the ball is because we don't set up based on possession, we set up to play direct by utilising our front four. We could just play like LVG football with McTominay & Fred and able to have 60% possession but what's the purpose. Playing direct means you also have good chances to lose the ball. We just need to improve our movement and positioning especially the front four so they can provide good/easier/effective option for our midfield/Centre back to pass the ball to in order to reduce the giving away the ball cheaply.

I think we do set up to have the ball, which is why we build up by havng our Cb's deeper to have possession. I think the idea of us simply being a counter attacking outfit due to instruction is actually overstated....I don't believe we plan to give up that much possession. It's like a boxer starting out heavy, realizing how much better a fighter the other boxer is, then choosing to grapple and run.

UNITED ACADEMY · Mar 10, 2021

tjb said:
I think we do set up to have the ball, which is why we build up by havng our Cb's deeper to have possession. I think the idea of us simply being a counter attacking outfit due to instruction is actually overstated....I don't believe we plan to give up that much possession. It's like a boxer starting out heavy, realizing how much better a fighter the other boxer is, then choosing to grapple and run.

I don't remember saying we set up counter attacking. I said we are setting up to play direct means we want to play the ball directly to our attackers which the front four as soon as possible instead of playing backwards and sideways across the defense and our double pivot. This type of football means we are going to play the ball into the dangerous area means area where opposition team will be more well ready to intercept the ball or stopping the play means more likely chance to lose the ball.

UNITED ACADEMY · Mar 10, 2021

Bwuk said:
I watched that clip and I'm not convinced the guy speaking on it has ever played football.

He's giving Fred/McTominay credit for tracking their man. It's basic and is to be expected.

Fred is a real weak point in this side. He can't be trusted as a sole #6 to allow to us to stick someone more creative in the pivot with him, and he isn't good enough on the ball to be the creator in the pivot. Against the better sides it leaves Bruno with more to do as he's picking up the two 6s slack.

Have you ever play when you are supposed to track your man but you couldn't because the opposition is just quick and have very good movement?

I haven't watch the video but I think that's where the credit is that the video is trying to give. Tracking your man is basic and to be expected but not easy when you are facing top players. If it was easy then every team would stop Man City by tracking their players.

Falcow · Mar 10, 2021

NZT-One said:
I agree with that post and I am also a fan of Fred. As I think, enough has been said about his obvious strength, weaknesses and current form, I'd like to another perspective to the workrate topic: I think, the term workrate is a bit undervalued in here by some but I think we all can agree on that a very positive trend started, when McTominay and Fred became our go-to-midfield. Both have good workrate which enables us as a team to play more as a team. Fred will in 1 second hassle the opposition ball carrier near our box and will be in the attacking third 5 seconds later to provide a passing option. We miss workrate in our team because only movement will cause breaks and will challenge a defense.

Of course Matic and Pogba can do way more with the ball, no questions asked but both of them are either incapable or unwilling to put in some necessary shifts. Add Martial to that group, Greenwood as well. Even Rashfords workrate has decreased this season significantly (imo). Shaw and Wan Bissaka pull their own weight, but both are not known for putting the overhours in. Bruno is probably the obvious exception but even he covers mostly very high areas when we are in possession.

That is not criticism at these players - a team doesn't need to consist purely out of workhorses but having low workrate on so many position will hurt you. It is no wonder we talk about "the movement" of Cavani or James, in bits also with DVB. We need a certain baseline of work within the team, if we "allow ourself" luxury players like Pogba, we have to bring somebody in to keep the balance. Especially when we play our transition-based-approach we have to have players on the pitch that are good in transitioning - that not only applies when in attack.

I agree with both sides of argument, having both McTominay and Fred will cause some certain issues, but thats the same with Pogba and Matic (as we have seen it multiple times over the last years). We have to mix it up or find creative solutions. I also agree, that Fred is a player that is upgrade-able. But lets be honest - I think there are at least 5 positions where the pain is at least just as big before we have to upgrade Fred. He is not holding us back, he might not be the greatest strength of this team, but who is?

Does anybody know a place, where statistics like "distance covered" or "distance covered in sprints" can be found? I think, this statistic would help Fred a lot for his public reputation...

Great balanced post and agree with all of it (not sure I would agree about Greenwood and lack of work rate though). Anyway yeah workrate is key, just look at City, probably collectively the hardest working team in the prem. Pep hasn't been a huge fan of Aguero as he doesnt give a high level of of workrate.

Fred's odd missed pass here and there is frustrating but it's no worse than anyone else on the team and certainly shouldnt be enough to make people blind to what he brings.....evidently it is however judging by the views expressed here.

Our first goal against City is a good example, if Fred didnt put his foot in there and break up play we dont get that goal. I'm willing to be 100 quid that all the posters in here criticising Fred didn't ever notice it!

Redldn22 · Mar 10, 2021

Litch said:
Absolutely ridiculous.....

Which top ten teams does Fred start in

Solius · Mar 10, 2021

Redldn22 said:
Which top ten teams does Fred start in

All barring City right now. If you think he offers nothing but energy then I don't really know how we can help you.

roonster09 · Mar 10, 2021

Redldn22 said:
Fred is the worst regular midfielder we've had in the whole Prem era. I can not believe the praise he receives in this thread.

Starts near every game and offers nothing beside energy, and there are several players in the division who are significantly better in this regard.

Doesn't start for most of the top ten, including Everton, West Ham, Spurs and Leicester. Possibly he starts for Arsenal but even then Xhaka and Ceballos are both far better on the ball so I dunno.

Redldn22 said:
Which top ten teams does Fred start in

Replace Fred with Lingard and the posts were even worse, now he looks like West Ham's best player every game.

Just because he doesn't mean good enough for team with high expectations doesn't mean he isn't good enough for other non top teams.

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