He went through a nasty case of Covid.
Bundesliga to the Premier League
- Thread starter Orton
- Start date
This. Players need to adapt to their teams more than the league they're in.
Still took him months.
Mhky, Kagawa, probably some others I'm forgetting and now Sancho.
All massively disappointing.
No I'm joking, Sancho can't be in this category ONE start in for goodness sake.
All massively disappointing.
No I'm joking, Sancho can't be in this category ONE start in for goodness sake.
Havertz is doing o.k these days.
I think big difference is what was discussed in one of the "Bundesliga is rubbish" threads that popped up last season. It's very different set up from bottom half teams in Germany compared to here. Can remember Dortmund playing Augsburg a few seasons back, were 3-1 down and Augsburg were still parking their backline on halfway line which would never happen here so one ball over the top and Sancho was through on goal and he set up a couple for Haaland.
He struggles to impose himself v low block teams as a few of his England performances have shown.
I think big difference is what was discussed in one of the "Bundesliga is rubbish" threads that popped up last season. It's very different set up from bottom half teams in Germany compared to here. Can remember Dortmund playing Augsburg a few seasons back, were 3-1 down and Augsburg were still parking their backline on halfway line which would never happen here so one ball over the top and Sancho was through on goal and he set up a couple for Haaland.
He struggles to impose himself v low block teams as a few of his England performances have shown.
Okay, I've been gathering my thoughts about this topic for a long time, so here goes:
1. I feel like there are huge stylistic differences between BL and EPL. In BL the default behaviour when a player gets the ball is passing it. There's much less ball-hogging, much less take-ons, much less long-distance shooting. In general the play seems to be much more team-oriented than indyvidualistic. Players making transition to the EPL have to learn very quickly, that in EPL they have to show their worth not as a part of a system, but as a stand-alone player, so to speak. This transition might take a long time, depending on the player. For example, I can't even imagine a player like Thomas Muller being successful in the EPL. All his biggest strengths come from his interplay with the rest of the team. If you play him in the EPL, you will soon discover that he, in fact, doesn't dribble well, can't hog the ball forward well, doesn't shoot from distance well, won't win duels with physically strong EPL defenders well etc.
2. There are many players in the BL, who are rated very highly very fast, without proving it for an extended period of time, or at the biggest stage. Every year some youngsters in the BL are called "generational talents" without doing much to prove it at all. Then they get poached by EPL clubs and they don't deliver. This is an issue of players being wrongly rated too high too fast. Just think about it - what is the chance that half of a Dortmund squad is made of "generational talents" at every given moment? I mean, are all four of Haaland, Moukoko, Bellingham, Sancho generational talents? Really? And then there is Guerreiro and Reyna who, if I'm not mistaken, are rated very highly too.
Lewandowski succeeded, but he wasn't just bagging goals against Augsburg or something. He scored hattrick vs Bayern in a DFB Cup final in 2012, just a week before Bayern played UCL final vs Chelsea. He was UCL finalist himself and scored 4 goals vs Madrid in 2013. Also had 10 ucl goals in 1090 minutes played in 2012/2013 season. After that you could actually rate him as a top player and expect top results from him. And you can expect top results from Haaland.
Aubameyang actually overperformed, at least for a while. I thought that he was largely a counter-attacking beast, and he would have it tough in the EPL. Never expected him to get the Golden Boot while playing for Arsenal.
3. The raw level of play is indeed higher in the EPL. I mean, the league has most money, the most of the best players go there, and the best coaches are there, so yeah. It's a no-brainer. And I don't mean just the levels of opponents, but also of competition. And, ironically enough, sometimes the competition for BL imports are EARLIER BL imports and all of them simply can't suceed at the same time.
There's no way Werner, Havertz and Pulisic all suceed at Chelsea at the same time.
4. BL teams are more system-oriented and players thrive in these systems. In order to successfully employ gegenpress you don't really need expensive stars - you need synchronization and stamina. If your gegenpress works, you can create high quality chances which, again, can be finished by players without great qualities. Those systems are designed to need cohesion, but don't require any stars to execute them. That's why players can relatively easily shine there.
In EPL nothing like that takes place. Suddenly BL players are out of their depth because not only they have to overcome low-block teams, but they have to do it with less support from their teammates (see point 1) and the players they face are in general higher level (see point 3) AND they get less chances for scoring, and they are of lesser quality, because they're not a product of pressing, and the entire opposing team is NOT out of position, so there are no gaps to exploit.
In general, in BL outplays usually seem to be the effect of outsmarting your opponents (for example, predicting their movements and thus pressing them well for a turnover), outrunning your opponents, having better tactics than your opponents, or simply individual errors.
In EPL outplays are about fine margins between player's skills. Most goals need a moment of brilliance from a single player or from multiple players and often miliseconds or centimeters separate success from failure. In comparison, Bayern's goals often look easy and "clinical" in comparison. Can't really figure out why, and it's hard to put it into words, but it looks as if the outplays came from very different source.
Maybe someone else will do a better job at generalizing this
1. I feel like there are huge stylistic differences between BL and EPL. In BL the default behaviour when a player gets the ball is passing it. There's much less ball-hogging, much less take-ons, much less long-distance shooting. In general the play seems to be much more team-oriented than indyvidualistic. Players making transition to the EPL have to learn very quickly, that in EPL they have to show their worth not as a part of a system, but as a stand-alone player, so to speak. This transition might take a long time, depending on the player. For example, I can't even imagine a player like Thomas Muller being successful in the EPL. All his biggest strengths come from his interplay with the rest of the team. If you play him in the EPL, you will soon discover that he, in fact, doesn't dribble well, can't hog the ball forward well, doesn't shoot from distance well, won't win duels with physically strong EPL defenders well etc.
2. There are many players in the BL, who are rated very highly very fast, without proving it for an extended period of time, or at the biggest stage. Every year some youngsters in the BL are called "generational talents" without doing much to prove it at all. Then they get poached by EPL clubs and they don't deliver. This is an issue of players being wrongly rated too high too fast. Just think about it - what is the chance that half of a Dortmund squad is made of "generational talents" at every given moment? I mean, are all four of Haaland, Moukoko, Bellingham, Sancho generational talents? Really? And then there is Guerreiro and Reyna who, if I'm not mistaken, are rated very highly too.
Lewandowski succeeded, but he wasn't just bagging goals against Augsburg or something. He scored hattrick vs Bayern in a DFB Cup final in 2012, just a week before Bayern played UCL final vs Chelsea. He was UCL finalist himself and scored 4 goals vs Madrid in 2013. Also had 10 ucl goals in 1090 minutes played in 2012/2013 season. After that you could actually rate him as a top player and expect top results from him. And you can expect top results from Haaland.
Aubameyang actually overperformed, at least for a while. I thought that he was largely a counter-attacking beast, and he would have it tough in the EPL. Never expected him to get the Golden Boot while playing for Arsenal.
3. The raw level of play is indeed higher in the EPL. I mean, the league has most money, the most of the best players go there, and the best coaches are there, so yeah. It's a no-brainer. And I don't mean just the levels of opponents, but also of competition. And, ironically enough, sometimes the competition for BL imports are EARLIER BL imports and all of them simply can't suceed at the same time.
There's no way Werner, Havertz and Pulisic all suceed at Chelsea at the same time.
4. BL teams are more system-oriented and players thrive in these systems. In order to successfully employ gegenpress you don't really need expensive stars - you need synchronization and stamina. If your gegenpress works, you can create high quality chances which, again, can be finished by players without great qualities. Those systems are designed to need cohesion, but don't require any stars to execute them. That's why players can relatively easily shine there.
In EPL nothing like that takes place. Suddenly BL players are out of their depth because not only they have to overcome low-block teams, but they have to do it with less support from their teammates (see point 1) and the players they face are in general higher level (see point 3) AND they get less chances for scoring, and they are of lesser quality, because they're not a product of pressing, and the entire opposing team is NOT out of position, so there are no gaps to exploit.
In general, in BL outplays usually seem to be the effect of outsmarting your opponents (for example, predicting their movements and thus pressing them well for a turnover), outrunning your opponents, having better tactics than your opponents, or simply individual errors.
In EPL outplays are about fine margins between player's skills. Most goals need a moment of brilliance from a single player or from multiple players and often miliseconds or centimeters separate success from failure. In comparison, Bayern's goals often look easy and "clinical" in comparison. Can't really figure out why, and it's hard to put it into words, but it looks as if the outplays came from very different source.
Maybe someone else will do a better job at generalizing this
YesOkay, I've been gathering my thoughts about this topic for a long time, so here goes:
1. I feel like there are huge stylistic differences between BL and EPL. In BL the default behaviour when a player gets the ball is passing it. There's much less ball-hogging, much less take-ons, much less long-distance shooting. In general the play seems to be much more team-oriented than indyvidualistic. Players making transition to the EPL have to learn very quickly, that in EPL they have to show their worth not as a part of a system, but as a stand-alone player, so to speak. This transition might take a long time, depending on the player. For example, I can't even imagine a player like Thomas Muller being successful in the EPL. All his biggest strengths come from his interplay with the rest of the team. If you play him in the EPL, you will soon discover that he, in fact, doesn't dribble well, can't hog the ball forward well, doesn't shoot from distance well, won't win duels with physically strong EPL defenders well etc.
2. There are many players in the BL, who are rated very highly very fast, without proving it for an extended period of time, or at the biggest stage. Every year some youngsters in the BL are called "generational talents" without doing much to prove it at all. Then they get poached by EPL clubs and they don't deliver. This is an issue of players being wrongly rated too high too fast. Just think about it - what is the chance that half of a Dortmund squad is made of "generational talents" at every given moment? I mean, are all four of Haaland, Moukoko, Bellingham, Sancho generational talents? Really? And then there is Guerreiro and Reyna who, if I'm not mistaken, are rated very highly too.
Lewandowski succeeded, but he wasn't just bagging goals against Augsburg or something. He scored hattrick vs Bayern in a DFB Cup final in 2012, just a week before Bayern played UCL final vs Chelsea. He was UCL finalist himself and scored 4 goals vs Madrid in 2013. Also had 10 ucl goals in 1090 minutes played in 2012/2013 season. After that you could actually rate him as a top player and expect top results from him. And you can expect top results from Haaland.
Aubameyang actually overperformed, at least for a while. I thought that he was largely a counter-attacking beast, and he would have it tough in the EPL. Never expected him to get the Golden Boot while playing for Arsenal.
3. The raw level of play is indeed higher in the EPL. I mean, the league has most money, the most of the best players go there, and the best coaches are there, so yeah. It's a no-brainer. And I don't mean just the levels of opponents, but also of competition. And, ironically enough, sometimes the competition for BL imports are EARLIER BL imports and all of them simply can't suceed at the same time.
There's no way Werner, Havertz and Pulisic all suceed at Chelsea at the same time.
4. BL teams are more system-oriented and players thrive in these systems. In order to successfully employ gegenpress you don't really need expensive stars - you need synchronization and stamina. If your gegenpress works, you can create high quality chances which, again, can be finished by players without great qualities. Those systems are designed to need cohesion, but don't require any stars to execute them. That's why players can relatively easily shine there.
In EPL nothing like that takes place. Suddenly BL players are out of their depth because not only they have to overcome low-block teams, but they have to do it with less support from their teammates (see point 1) and the players they face are in general higher level (see point 3) AND they get less chances for scoring, and they are of lesser quality, because they're not a product of pressing, and the entire opposing team is NOT out of position, so there are no gaps to exploit.
In general, in BL outplays usually seem to be the effect of outsmarting your opponents (for example, predicting their movements and thus pressing them well for a turnover), outrunning your opponents, having better tactics than your opponents, or simply individual errors.
In EPL outplays are about fine margins between player's skills. Most goals need a moment of brilliance from a single player or from multiple players and often miliseconds or centimeters separate success from failure. In comparison, Bayern's goals often look easy and "clinical" in comparison. Can't really figure out why, and it's hard to put it into words, but it looks as if the outplays came from very different source.
Maybe someone else will do a better job at generalizing this
Great post. V interesting.Okay, I've been gathering my thoughts about this topic for a long time, so here goes:
1. I feel like there are huge stylistic differences between BL and EPL. In BL the default behaviour when a player gets the ball is passing it. There's much less ball-hogging, much less take-ons, much less long-distance shooting. In general the play seems to be much more team-oriented than indyvidualistic. Players making transition to the EPL have to learn very quickly, that in EPL they have to show their worth not as a part of a system, but as a stand-alone player, so to speak. This transition might take a long time, depending on the player. For example, I can't even imagine a player like Thomas Muller being successful in the EPL. All his biggest strengths come from his interplay with the rest of the team. If you play him in the EPL, you will soon discover that he, in fact, doesn't dribble well, can't hog the ball forward well, doesn't shoot from distance well, won't win duels with physically strong EPL defenders well etc.
2. There are many players in the BL, who are rated very highly very fast, without proving it for an extended period of time, or at the biggest stage. Every year some youngsters in the BL are called "generational talents" without doing much to prove it at all. Then they get poached by EPL clubs and they don't deliver. This is an issue of players being wrongly rated too high too fast. Just think about it - what is the chance that half of a Dortmund squad is made of "generational talents" at every given moment? I mean, are all four of Haaland, Moukoko, Bellingham, Sancho generational talents? Really? And then there is Guerreiro and Reyna who, if I'm not mistaken, are rated very highly too.
Lewandowski succeeded, but he wasn't just bagging goals against Augsburg or something. He scored hattrick vs Bayern in a DFB Cup final in 2012, just a week before Bayern played UCL final vs Chelsea. He was UCL finalist himself and scored 4 goals vs Madrid in 2013. Also had 10 ucl goals in 1090 minutes played in 2012/2013 season. After that you could actually rate him as a top player and expect top results from him. And you can expect top results from Haaland.
Aubameyang actually overperformed, at least for a while. I thought that he was largely a counter-attacking beast, and he would have it tough in the EPL. Never expected him to get the Golden Boot while playing for Arsenal.
3. The raw level of play is indeed higher in the EPL. I mean, the league has most money, the most of the best players go there, and the best coaches are there, so yeah. It's a no-brainer. And I don't mean just the levels of opponents, but also of competition. And, ironically enough, sometimes the competition for BL imports are EARLIER BL imports and all of them simply can't suceed at the same time.
There's no way Werner, Havertz and Pulisic all suceed at Chelsea at the same time.
4. BL teams are more system-oriented and players thrive in these systems. In order to successfully employ gegenpress you don't really need expensive stars - you need synchronization and stamina. If your gegenpress works, you can create high quality chances which, again, can be finished by players without great qualities. Those systems are designed to need cohesion, but don't require any stars to execute them. That's why players can relatively easily shine there.
In EPL nothing like that takes place. Suddenly BL players are out of their depth because not only they have to overcome low-block teams, but they have to do it with less support from their teammates (see point 1) and the players they face are in general higher level (see point 3) AND they get less chances for scoring, and they are of lesser quality, because they're not a product of pressing, and the entire opposing team is NOT out of position, so there are no gaps to exploit.
In general, in BL outplays usually seem to be the effect of outsmarting your opponents (for example, predicting their movements and thus pressing them well for a turnover), outrunning your opponents, having better tactics than your opponents, or simply individual errors.
In EPL outplays are about fine margins between player's skills. Most goals need a moment of brilliance from a single player or from multiple players and often miliseconds or centimeters separate success from failure. In comparison, Bayern's goals often look easy and "clinical" in comparison. Can't really figure out why, and it's hard to put it into words, but it looks as if the outplays came from very different source.
Maybe someone else will do a better job at generalizing this
Ilkay Gundogan is doing ok
Nigel de Jong in 2009
Per Mertesacker
Leroy Sane
Edin Dzeko
Vincent Kompany
Several transfers over several timeperiods. Son and KDB are obvious answers, as well are Havertz and Ballack.
Sancho will do just fine.
Nigel de Jong in 2009
Per Mertesacker
Leroy Sane
Edin Dzeko
Vincent Kompany
Several transfers over several timeperiods. Son and KDB are obvious answers, as well are Havertz and Ballack.
Sancho will do just fine.
No not at all - he signed there on a 5 year deal, had a fluke injury and was played out of position most of the time at right back, then demanded to leave. City were very happy to be rid of him - Boateng was mad that he'd been played out of position due to Micah Richards' ongoing fitness issues and Bayern more or less paid what City had done to Hamburg a year earlier.
Need to get a grip, Sancho has played 100 minutes of football for Utd.
It took him months for his lungs to come back to train properly. He felt he needed to keep training and playing. He was fatigued, but would not sit it out, and he was not willing to tell the staff how bad he was doing. Only after he was fully fit was he willing to talk about it. He is young, he could have really hurt himself trying to play through it.
(Not commenting on Sancho)
We've not done well with 2 Dortmund players and 1 Ajax player. The common thing between both teams is that both play a very team-oriented passing/pressing game. The Dortmund players who have done well outside have either gone to another system-driven team (Gundogan) or were anyway individualist freaks (Lewa, Auba, maybe Haaland next).
Sahin, Kagawa, Mkhi were all cogs in a machine, none of them could adapt outside. Seemingly same with vdB.
Only exception is Blind, who did decently as CB and as cover for DM/LB. Maybe LvG as coach helped, but I think he wasn't terrible for Jose either.
e - Pulisic also breaks the theory.
We've not done well with 2 Dortmund players and 1 Ajax player. The common thing between both teams is that both play a very team-oriented passing/pressing game. The Dortmund players who have done well outside have either gone to another system-driven team (Gundogan) or were anyway individualist freaks (Lewa, Auba, maybe Haaland next).
Sahin, Kagawa, Mkhi were all cogs in a machine, none of them could adapt outside. Seemingly same with vdB.
Only exception is Blind, who did decently as CB and as cover for DM/LB. Maybe LvG as coach helped, but I think he wasn't terrible for Jose either.
e - Pulisic also breaks the theory.
Pulisic?
All these explanations that I didn't ask for. Saying it took him months doesn't mean I disregarded the effects of Covid man...
All this analysis just to say that EPL have more money than the BL, so they can get better managers and players, so the league is better in general, and makes it harder for players from abroad to adapt....Okay, I've been gathering my thoughts about this topic for a long time, so here goes:
1. I feel like there are huge stylistic differences between BL and EPL. In BL the default behaviour when a player gets the ball is passing it. There's much less ball-hogging, much less take-ons, much less long-distance shooting. In general the play seems to be much more team-oriented than indyvidualistic. Players making transition to the EPL have to learn very quickly, that in EPL they have to show their worth not as a part of a system, but as a stand-alone player, so to speak. This transition might take a long time, depending on the player. For example, I can't even imagine a player like Thomas Muller being successful in the EPL. All his biggest strengths come from his interplay with the rest of the team. If you play him in the EPL, you will soon discover that he, in fact, doesn't dribble well, can't hog the ball forward well, doesn't shoot from distance well, won't win duels with physically strong EPL defenders well etc.
2. There are many players in the BL, who are rated very highly very fast, without proving it for an extended period of time, or at the biggest stage. Every year some youngsters in the BL are called "generational talents" without doing much to prove it at all. Then they get poached by EPL clubs and they don't deliver. This is an issue of players being wrongly rated too high too fast. Just think about it - what is the chance that half of a Dortmund squad is made of "generational talents" at every given moment? I mean, are all four of Haaland, Moukoko, Bellingham, Sancho generational talents? Really? And then there is Guerreiro and Reyna who, if I'm not mistaken, are rated very highly too.
Lewandowski succeeded, but he wasn't just bagging goals against Augsburg or something. He scored hattrick vs Bayern in a DFB Cup final in 2012, just a week before Bayern played UCL final vs Chelsea. He was UCL finalist himself and scored 4 goals vs Madrid in 2013. Also had 10 ucl goals in 1090 minutes played in 2012/2013 season. After that you could actually rate him as a top player and expect top results from him. And you can expect top results from Haaland.
Aubameyang actually overperformed, at least for a while. I thought that he was largely a counter-attacking beast, and he would have it tough in the EPL. Never expected him to get the Golden Boot while playing for Arsenal.
3. The raw level of play is indeed higher in the EPL. I mean, the league has most money, the most of the best players go there, and the best coaches are there, so yeah. It's a no-brainer. And I don't mean just the levels of opponents, but also of competition. And, ironically enough, sometimes the competition for BL imports are EARLIER BL imports and all of them simply can't suceed at the same time.
There's no way Werner, Havertz and Pulisic all suceed at Chelsea at the same time.
4. BL teams are more system-oriented and players thrive in these systems. In order to successfully employ gegenpress you don't really need expensive stars - you need synchronization and stamina. If your gegenpress works, you can create high quality chances which, again, can be finished by players without great qualities. Those systems are designed to need cohesion, but don't require any stars to execute them. That's why players can relatively easily shine there.
In EPL nothing like that takes place. Suddenly BL players are out of their depth because not only they have to overcome low-block teams, but they have to do it with less support from their teammates (see point 1) and the players they face are in general higher level (see point 3) AND they get less chances for scoring, and they are of lesser quality, because they're not a product of pressing, and the entire opposing team is NOT out of position, so there are no gaps to exploit.
In general, in BL outplays usually seem to be the effect of outsmarting your opponents (for example, predicting their movements and thus pressing them well for a turnover), outrunning your opponents, having better tactics than your opponents, or simply individual errors.
In EPL outplays are about fine margins between player's skills. Most goals need a moment of brilliance from a single player or from multiple players and often miliseconds or centimeters separate success from failure. In comparison, Bayern's goals often look easy and "clinical" in comparison. Can't really figure out why, and it's hard to put it into words, but it looks as if the outplays came from very different source.
Maybe someone else will do a better job at generalizing this
I mean
So it's already been clearly established from the first page that this is not a correct assessment of players who have made the switch.
As is the case, many who come from another league, need time to adapt to the PL and that has been the case for most. Sure there are some that don't end up living up to the same standard (Mikhitaryan and Kagawa best example for us) but even that needs to be understood with context.
But based on the list of players mentioned already, it's pretty clear that the assessment made in the OP is not accurate.
Exactly.
I remember even last year he started very slow and some in Germany were saying it was because he didn't get the move he wanted and all that, but he came good in the end.
IMHO
(updating a comment I made 6 months ago on Werner thread):
Premier League signings from Bundesliga clubs (at least £ 15 mln spent)
Positive: Aubameyang, De Bruyne, Sanè, Firmino, Son, Havertz, Gundogan, Soyuncu, Vestergaard, Dzeko, De Jong
Neutral: Leno, Werner, Hargreaves (good but never fit). Leon Bailey, Jadon Sancho and Konatè (neutral at the moment for obvious reasons)
Negative: Naby Keita, Haller, Xhaka, Thiago Alcantara, Joelinton, Mkhitaryan, Pulisic (!!), Gbamin, Baba, Schurrle, Yarmolenko, Kagawa, Sokratis
Conclusions:
As Gattuso said once "Sometimes maybe good, sometimes maybe shit"
(updating a comment I made 6 months ago on Werner thread):
Premier League signings from Bundesliga clubs (at least £ 15 mln spent)
Positive: Aubameyang, De Bruyne, Sanè, Firmino, Son, Havertz, Gundogan, Soyuncu, Vestergaard, Dzeko, De Jong
Neutral: Leno, Werner, Hargreaves (good but never fit). Leon Bailey, Jadon Sancho and Konatè (neutral at the moment for obvious reasons)
Negative: Naby Keita, Haller, Xhaka, Thiago Alcantara, Joelinton, Mkhitaryan, Pulisic (!!), Gbamin, Baba, Schurrle, Yarmolenko, Kagawa, Sokratis
Conclusions:
As Gattuso said once "Sometimes maybe good, sometimes maybe shit"
It depends on the player.
De bruyne destroyed the Premier League.
Son is one of the best forwards
Gundogan was close to best Player of EPL last season
Havertz doing good
De bruyne destroyed the Premier League.
Son is one of the best forwards
Gundogan was close to best Player of EPL last season
Havertz doing good
Imo it's not only the pace of the game but also the physical challenges. Refs in the PL are far more lenient toward physical challenges than in the Bundes. So it's generally really difficult for technical but not physical players.
Of the players who come from the Bundes you can easily see the ones with good physical attributes have basically no issue to adapt. But it's really hard for the ones who don't. Kagawa is a prime example.
Of the players who come from the Bundes you can easily see the ones with good physical attributes have basically no issue to adapt. But it's really hard for the ones who don't. Kagawa is a prime example.
Edin Dzeko was decent and Sahin was pretty bad, so I'd say you could add those to positive and negative respectively.
To me, one thing stands out when it comes to the negative list: Mkhitaryan, Kagawa, Sokratis and Sahin. They all came from Dortmund and flourished under Klopp - a manager known to being able to elevate the overall squad quality to such an extent that the potential is quite a lot higher than the sum of its parts. That's what many clubs fell for when it comes to these 4, I'd say; they overestimated individual quality and underestimated Klopp's impact as a coach. Regarding Pulisic, he hardly is a negative transfer overall, I'd rather put him on a low positive or high neutral. Sancho in general is too early to judge by far.
Overall, it's obvious that the overall quality of the PL is higher than the Bundesliga's - that's hardly a surprise, considering the financial situation of both leagues. In my opinion, when I look at that list, the only real surprise is Thiago, the rest really isn't. The likes of Xhaka, Mkhitaryan, Schürrle, Kagawa etc. always were too weak for an elite club and many who actually followed the league knew that beforehand. Thiago on the other hand is an absurdly gifted and talented player, who showed some of the highest potential in terms of raw footballing ability (especially technique) ever in the Bundesliga. I don't follow Liverpool that much, so I have no idea why he's struggling, but judging by his time in the Bundesliga, I'd expect it to be pace. He always lacked that.
If PL managers (sans Pep, Klopp) are unable to create tactics and systems of play that can get the best out of so-called "system players" then maybe it says a lot more about their quality and the quality of play in this league, than it says about these players in question.
No doubt that if Kagawa played for Klopp he would get the best out of him in the PL. Veron was a fantastic player that Fergie couldn't get the best out of. It's not an indictment on Veron.
One thing that sticks out reading about the Serie A of the 80s to 2000s is the high level of managerial tactical expertise from top to bottom. There was a high demand on players but managers did their very best to adapt their teams to the qualities of the players. I'm baffled as to why in England that's not a minimum requirement for managers, and players are just expected to "just go on" in suboptimal conditions.
Don't even get me started on VDB...
No doubt that if Kagawa played for Klopp he would get the best out of him in the PL. Veron was a fantastic player that Fergie couldn't get the best out of. It's not an indictment on Veron.
One thing that sticks out reading about the Serie A of the 80s to 2000s is the high level of managerial tactical expertise from top to bottom. There was a high demand on players but managers did their very best to adapt their teams to the qualities of the players. I'm baffled as to why in England that's not a minimum requirement for managers, and players are just expected to "just go on" in suboptimal conditions.
Don't even get me started on VDB...
Yeah, he was. Injury-prone and weak mentally. Had great career at Bayern obviously but looking at a guy I personally know who was playing in BuLi for years and years and recently returned back home to finish his career here... Damn, the quality of BuLi must be genuinely terrible.
Why are people assuming this like it's some new idea or anything that's worth mentioning over and over again? It's quite obvious that the Bundesliga has a completely different financial and economic approach that results in a lot less money for the clubs at hand than for those in the PL. Surprisingly, more money leads to more quality.
Came in for free, but Matip has been brilliant. The only drawback is that he is injury prone.
I wouldn't put Thiago as a failure. Struggled with injury and then Covid. But was essential in us securing fourth when paired with Fabinho.
We would have done better in UCL against Madrid if he had started instead of Keita.
I wouldn't put Thiago as a failure. Struggled with injury and then Covid. But was essential in us securing fourth when paired with Fabinho.
We would have done better in UCL against Madrid if he had started instead of Keita.
I think a lot of players coming from the Bundesliga are struggling with the physicality of it. The main problem though isn't pace, but that players get very little protection against physical challenges. The Bundesliga is super soft in that regard, and pretty much any tackling that isn't only hitting the ball gets called as a foul.
One game where the team played like shit also, but we’ve long known this place is full of nutters.
Many followers of the Bundesliga already predicted that Sancho will have a hard time on your team. Teams in the Bundesliga are usually more organized. I think you under Solskjaer at least are a particularly bad fit. As a fan of Sancho, I wanted to see him play under Tuchel, Klopp or Guardiola. Completely sure he would more or less immediately be a world beater for them.
Now I'm hoping you get rid of Solskjaer rather sooner than later. If you do and get a top coach in, you'll see what kind of impact an actual system has one the performances and consistency of your players.
Now I'm hoping you get rid of Solskjaer rather sooner than later. If you do and get a top coach in, you'll see what kind of impact an actual system has one the performances and consistency of your players.
Jurgen Klinsmann and Didi Hamann were decent too.
How do you feel about Scousers posing as Germans
Sancho had times in Dortmund, when he did not play that well. For example in the last season he was average at best the entire first half of the season. I think the most important factor for him is to have fun and feel confident. He is in a new environment, so he needs to build those factors.
I would honestly be very, very surprised if he does not become a very valuable player during the season. One of the most talented players I have seen play in Dortmund.
I would honestly be very, very surprised if he does not become a very valuable player during the season. One of the most talented players I have seen play in Dortmund.
Same way I feel about lizard people
I think it has often to do more with how the player fits into a certain team and system. Of course there are more versatile players who can be put into any team and formation, but I have the feeling that players from e.g. Dortmund are especially used to receive a lot of tactical orders regarding movements off the ball, use the spaces, when and where to press etc.
Without these instructions it might take more time to adopt.
Without these instructions it might take more time to adopt.
Can anyone think of any BL player who quickly looked the real deal in the PL? There’s been a few success stories but didn’t they all take a while to settle?
Nah the major factor is we pulled out a player from well-functioning team and put him into non-functional team with a very simple game plan (pass it to Shaw/Bruno/Greenwood). Which Sancho executed very well.
Many Chelsea, Liverpool, City forwards would look lost in our team as well (Wolves game).
Many Chelsea, Liverpool, City forwards would look lost in our team as well (Wolves game).
When they go into a team that has a very defined style of play, they’re fine.
Aubameyang scored 22 goals and 5 assists in his first PL season. De Bruyne was really good in his first season as well. But those two are outstanding players and the norm is that players usually need time do adapt.
You think SAF didn't have a very defined style of play or a system? If he did why Kagawa failed?
It's a bit naive to think a team would have to change their whole style/system to accommodate a player. It's rather the player would have to adapt himself to that existing system.
Kagawa wasn't that bad in his first season under Fergie and I'm sure he would have been a success had Fergie stayed on. There was a reason Fergie apologized to Kagawa after he decided to retire.