Does Klopp get too much praise for his trophy count at liverpool

padr81

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Righteous Steps said:
It’s not about coping with being a favourite it’s simply about having better players technically mentally and tactically. This Liverpool have no problems being favourite because they simply have better players than they did for example when they faced Sevilla, that’s all, the failing to put up a challenge also is down to losing all 3 starting cbs for the majority of the season which has this season shows its a total outlier.

Generally the better your players this more you win.
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Yup but not every manager can do that. Its very likely Klopp would win with the best team but his record when he is the favorite is poor. He had a better team in the Uefa Cup and the season with no CB's was favorite. As far as I can measure those are the only 2 times I've seen him as favorite for a trophy. Not a knock on the man but in the same way people say we need to see Pep win without the best team, we also need to see how Jurgen actually does as the favorites.

Only 3 men have retained the PL for example when in charge of the best team. Ask Wenger how hard it is.
 

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Dancfc said:
I never said he'll fail per se, it's the idea that's it's all linear (ala he'll utterly dominate with a blank cheque because of what he's done on relatively limited funds) is what I'm arguing.

He would have to adapt his management if he took a Real and Paris especially and not to mention a season like last would possibly get him sacked at those clubs even with the mitigating circumstances.
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They would have to adapt to him as much as he does them, also yes but he would also probably go into the season with more depth like he has this season, so again more money is rarely a problem.
 

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Lord SInister said:
Didn't Pep win treble in his first season and won 3 straight La Ligas, and added another UCL in his third season. Yes he had a GOAT team and arguably the GOAT player, still I mean. Pep had a rockstar start in his coaching career.
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Exactly without spending a billion euros, mourinho also won the UCL at Porto, winning leagues 4 in his first seasons.
 

Righteous Steps

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padr81 said:
Yup but not every manager can do that. Its very likely Klopp would win with the best team but his record when he is the favorite is poor. He had a better team in the Uefa Cup and the season with no CB's was favorite. As far as I can measure those are the only 2 times I've seen him as favorite for a trophy. Not a knock on the man but in the same way people say we need to see Pep win without the best team, we also need to see how Jurgen actually does as the favorites.

Only 3 men have retained the PL for example when in charge of the best team. Ask Wenger how hard it is.
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I just think that argument is a cop out the problem isn’t being the favourite the problem is not having enough squad depth and a higher quality of players which he had this season.
 

padr81

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Righteous Steps said:
I just think that argument is a cop out the problem isn’t being the favourite the problem is not having enough squad depth and a higher quality of players which he had this season.
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But using the same logic we could say he only won his title because City had Laporte out injured and John Stones not playing because of personal issues so had to play Fernandinho.
I'm not saying the guy wouldn't be a success (I personally think he would). I think there is no proof he would be, just like there is no proof Pep would or wouldn't succeed at Liverpool. Klopp has never been in the position and we've never seen him in said position, neither has Pep.

People make the argument Pep can't win without the best but can't prove it, we need the same proof from Klopp (which is why I think he should join Bayern for the rest of the season). Whats required is different.
 

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padr81 said:
What makes you think he could? I see this spouted time and again. Why would Klopp win at City and Pep fail at Liverpool.
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Like guardiola, he's been successful in every job he's had. But the challenge at Liverpool was far greater than anything guardiola has ever taken on and Guardiola has no track record of rebuilding a club as klopp has done. Both great managers but one needs a particular set of circumstances to even be interested in a job. Give Klopp guardiolas billions and all the murky dealings of Abu Dhabi and he'd undoubtedly continue his success. i don't believe guardiola could have done it.
 

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SER19 said:
Like guardiola, he's been successful in every job he's had. But the challenge at Liverpool was far greater than anything guardiola has ever taken on and Guardiola has no track record of rebuilding a club as klopp has done. Both great managers but one needs a particular set of circumstances to even be interested in a job. Give Klopp guardiolas billions and all the murky dealings of Abu Dhabi and he'd undoubtedly continue his success. i don't believe guardiola could have done it.
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You say that but I want you to prove to me why he'd be a success instead of taking pot shots at Abu Dhabi (or do both) but we both know you can't.
Did Sir Alex think it was easier to win the title as an underdog or retain it as favorite? What you believe doesn't matter, you stated it like fact, back it up.

I believe if they both swapped jobs they both be equally successful. Pep about as much as Klopp has and Klopp about as much as Pep has, but my beliefs don't matter because I have no data to judge Pep as underdog nor Klopp as favorite.
Unless we count one season at Barca B where a team tipped for bottom half of the table overachieved by miles and won the league.
 

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SER19 said:
Like guardiola, he's been successful in every job he's had. But the challenge at Liverpool was far greater than anything guardiola has ever taken on and Guardiola has no track record of rebuilding a club as klopp has done. Both great managers but one needs a particular set of circumstances to even be interested in a job. Give Klopp guardiolas billions and all the murky dealings of Abu Dhabi and he'd undoubtedly continue his success. i don't believe guardiola could have done it.
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There's absolutely no way anyone can know for sure if Klopp will do better than Pep if he was managing City with the resources City have. If it were that automatic, Mourinho would have won the CL with Madrid and Chelsea. Or do you think that Mourinho did a bad job (on the field) with those clubs?

As for Pep and rebuilding and winning without spending, what do you call his first season at Barcelona?
 

RedBanker

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The football Klopp has Pool playing if he had done the same for us, there would be statues built for him already. Trophies. :lol: :lol: . I love these threads or the ones titled Guardiola sack watch.
 

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padr81 said:
Yeah but he's the same level of underdog. That's what my point is, imagine being up against Pep with a dominant team and bigger resources for most your career. We have to judge Klopp on that.
I don't think its a failure to come 2nd in the league to the 2nd most expensive squad in football history consistently who were the most expensive till a few months ago, especially when they have one of the best managers to boot.
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We can judge him like that, and it is correct. But history won't. In 15 or 20 years people won't say "Oh but Pep bad loads of money." Funnily enough, it will be used as a stick to beat Pep's achievements with but not why Klopp didn't win more, in my opinion. Obviously time will tell.
 

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Bubz27 said:
We can judge him like that, and it is correct. But history won't. In 15 or 20 years people won't say "Oh but Pep bad loads of money." Funnily enough, it will be used as a stick to beat Pep's achievements with but not why Klopp didn't win more, in my opinion. Obviously time will tell.
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Actually thats fair. I think he will need to inevitably win more to be considered a true great outside of Dortmund and Liverpool. Which is why I think he needs to go somewhere where he's top dog or at least on a level playing field. I just don't think he has that in him. He loves being the underdog. That said if he goes 3-2 vs this Pep with a couple of CL's to prop him up, he'll be remembered.
 

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padr81 said:
But using the same logic we could say he only won his title because City had Laporte out injured and John Stones not playing because of personal issues so had to play Fernandinho.
I'm not saying the guy wouldn't be a success (I personally think he would). I think there is no proof he would be, just like there is no proof Pep would or wouldn't succeed at Liverpool. Klopp has never been in the position and we've never seen him in said position, neither has Pep.

People make the argument Pep can't win without the best but can't prove it, we need the same proof from Klopp (which is why I think he should join Bayern for the rest of the season). Whats required is different.
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It’s on Pep to prove he can do what Klopp does on a limited budget and not the other way IMO, because it’s generally understood that more money bigger budgets as more wages leads to more titles. In fact there is direct correlation with the teams with the biggest wages and where they finish in the league, so asking would Klopp for example win leagues managing Bayern in a league that has been a one team league since he’s left is pretty silly.

Like wise with City a team that has had decent amount of success even before Guardiola, Pellegrini and Mancini both won leagues there and both are lesser managers than Klopp.
 

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padr81 said:
Actually thats fair. I think he will need to inevitably win more to be considered a great. Which is why I think he needs to go somewhere where he's top dog or at least on a level playing field. I just don't think he has that in him. He loves being the underdog.
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You think Klopp wouldn’t do well for a Bayern who have won 10 leagues in a row regardless of manager, or City who had won 2 out of 4 leagues before Guardiola?:lol:
 

Bubz27

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padr81 said:
Actually thats fair. I think he will need to inevitably win more to be considered a true great outside of Dortmund and Liverpool. Which is why I think he needs to go somewhere where he's top dog or at least on a level playing field. I just don't think he has that in him. He loves being the underdog. That said if he goes 3-2 vs this Pep with a couple of CL's to prop him up, he'll be remembered.
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I think he should too, and soonish please.

Real, you'd love him!

But yeah, he loves being the underdog doesn't he. Reckon it gives him a nice excuse? He wasn't the underdog against Sevilla was he, just hadn't built his team yet.
 

padr81

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Righteous Steps said:
It’s on Pep to prove he can do what Klopp does on a limited budget and not the other way IMO, because it’s generally understood that more money bigger budgets as more wages leads to more titles. In fact there is direct correlations with the teams with the biggest wages and where they finish in the league, so asking would Klopp for example win leagues managing Bayern in a league that has been a one team league since he’s left is pretty silly.

Like wise with City a team that has had decent amount of success even before Guardiola, Pellegrini and Mancini both win leagues there and both are lesser managers than Klopp.
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Its on Pep to prove he can manage the underdog and its on Klopp to prove he can manage the top dog. They are different jobs, being good at one doesn't make one good at the other.
Look at David Moyes efforts at managing the champions or Poch or even Contes effort at keeping the spot etc...

People just presume its a given Klopp would succeed at City or Juve or PSG or Bayern but its not. People presumed that about a lot of managers at a lot of clubs and it quickly turns out wrong. See Juve throwing away their dominance etc...
Its not as easy to be the top dog as people think, its why only Sir Alex, Jose and Pep have done it (in the PL era).
 

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Righteous Steps said:
You think Klopp wouldn’t do well for a Bayern who have won 10 leagues in a row regardless of manager, or City who had won 2 out of 4 leagues before Guardiola?:lol:
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Ah changing what I've said because you have no argument either. Where did I say "Klopp wouldn't do well for a Bayern"
 

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Trex said:
Thing is Mourinho won the UCL at Porto and pep didn't spend billions to win it at Barcelona
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Didn't need billions but inherited a team with Messi coming into his prime, Henry, Eto'o, Xavi, Iniesta, Toure, Puyol. Far more impressive what Klopp turned Dortmund into.
 

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padr81 said:
Ah changing what I've said because you have no argument either. Where did I say "Klopp wouldn't do well for a Bayern"
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So what’s your argument? He hasn’t done it yet I agree, he doesn’t ever need to though what does he prove by winning a league in a league which is dominated by one team regardless of manager, when he’s already done that with Dortmund which is probably a bigger challenge?
 

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He did overachieve with Dortmund and Liverpool though.

We need to also look at his budget and strength of his teams.
 

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padr81 said:
Its on Pep to prove he can manage the underdog and its on Klopp to prove he can manage the top dog. They are different jobs, being good at one doesn't make one good at the other.
Look at David Moyes efforts at managing the champions or Poch or even Contes effort at keeping the spot etc...

People just presume its a given Klopp would succeed at City or Juve or PSG or Bayern but its not. People presumed that about a lot of managers at a lot of clubs and it quickly turns out wrong. See Juve throwing away their dominance etc...
Its not as easy to be the top dog as people think, its why only Sir Alex, Jose and Pep have done it (in the PL era).
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Klopp would succeed at these clubs because they are so weighted towards the top end, PSG Bayern Juve and City all win the league most seasons regardless of who the manager is, city have won it with Pellegrini and Mancini lesser managers than Klopp, Juve went 10 in a row, and Bayern are probably due to win the league this season with Nageilsmann who is also a lesser manager than Klopp.

Pochettino hasn’t won anything in his career and messed up last season but PSG are 11 points ahead of their closest rivals this one and he’ll win the league this season, what’s so hard about that? I think it’s clutching at straws personally, as is bringing up Moyes who has never won anything in his career and who’s style of play and general football philosophy and coaching shows you he is more suited to smaller clubs, nothing else.
 

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RVN1991 said:
Didn't need billions but inherited a team with Messi coming into his prime, Henry, Eto'o, Xavi, Iniesta, Toure, Puyol. Far more impressive what Klopp turned Dortmund into.
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You must have forgotten how dominant Pep barca were, if you think anything Klopp has achieved comes close.
 

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Righteous Steps said:
So what’s your argument? He hasn’t done it yet I agree, he doesn’t ever need to though what does he prove by winning a league in a league which is dominated by one team regardless of manager, when he’s already done that with Dortmund which is probably a bigger challenge?
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Its not about bigger challenge its about proving it. I love the guy I think he'd win the league anywhere personally but just like Pep we need the proof. I mean we all thought Messi could do it in France, we laughed (well I did) at anyone who said he'll find it hard. He needs to not win once off like he does now. He needs to be that guy who proves he can win consistently. To do that he'll have to do it at the best teams.
 

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Trex said:
You must have forgotten how dominant Pep barca were, if you think anything Klopp has achieved comes close.
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No they're probably the best club side I've ever seen, but my point is he didn't need to spend a billion because he already inherited an all time great side.

Klopp inherited a lower midtable side in financial trouble and eventually built them up to become one of the best and most entertaining teams in Europe.

Not to take away what Guardiola did in Barcelona, he transformed an underachieving side into a colossus, but let's not pretend Barcelona weren't a fantastic squad especially compared to Dortmund.
 
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I think first of all that fans discussing the credentials of managers and their abilities to succeed at the highest level in different scenarios with any degree of seriousness is hilarious and arrogant.

Second, there is no proof of Pep succeeding in an underdog situation, or Klopp succeeding at a club with more instant expectations (something Mourinho has failed at twice, for those who say it's guaranteed). But what skills does Pep have that Klopp lack, or vice versa? They are both excellent at man management, implementing tactics on the training field, media relations... They've both won trophies relative to the resources available to them. Why is the default assumption that Klopp's job at Liverpool is something that Pep would struggle with (beyond the moronic stick of "yeah but can he bring up Accrington Stanley to the PL?")?
 

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Pains me to say buts he best manager about at the moment in my opinion.


But he way off the big boys when it comes to trophy count.
 

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padr81 said:
You say that but I want you to prove to me why he'd be a success instead of taking pot shots at Abu Dhabi (or do both) but we both know you can't.
Did Sir Alex think it was easier to win the title as an underdog or retain it as favorite? What you believe doesn't matter, you stated it like fact, back it up.

I believe if they both swapped jobs they both be equally successful. Pep about as much as Klopp has and Klopp about as much as Pep has, but my beliefs don't matter because I have no data to judge Pep as underdog nor Klopp as favorite.
Unless we count one season at Barca B where a team tipped for bottom half of the table overachieved by miles and won the league.
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I've had this conversation to death on here. An opinion based on hypotheticals can't be 'proven'. If my opinion is that important to you go search for elaboration. Sorry for daring to offend your beloved Abu Dhabi and their peers who are doing such a stellar job accommodating your countrymen, the kinahans. Vile, murderous scum nation aside, i simply hold the opinion that klopp is a superior manager and that guardiola hasn't left city yet as a gimmee role hasn't appeared in recent years with most top clubs in some state of transition.
 

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footballistic orgasm said:
There's absolutely no way anyone can know for sure if Klopp will do better than Pep if he was managing City with the resources City have. If it were that automatic, Mourinho would have won the CL with Madrid and Chelsea. Or do you think that Mourinho did a bad job (on the field) with those clubs?

As for Pep and rebuilding and winning without spending, what do you call his first season at Barcelona?
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I call it arguably the best team of the century who could have coached themselves to a title at that point. Crediting a guy who inherited peak Messi, iniesta and xavi as well as pretty much every player who started on the way to the CL with a 'rebuild' is a very low bar. When he goes to a club and achieves beyond what is expected based on team, competitiveness and money money money, then I'll happily credit it. Hes a great manager, but there are countless who have achieved things he has not
 

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SER19 said:
No, he's the best manager in the league unfortunately. Guardiola couldn't do at Liverpool what he's done at City, klopp could win league and CL with City. The fact that he's pushed city's corruption riddled sportswash franchise to the level they are is a credit to him. Without him the league would be a joke most of the time
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And we know this......how exactly?
 

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SER19 said:
I call it arguably the best team of the century who could have coached themselves to a title at that point. Crediting a guy who inherited peak Messi, iniesta and xavi as well as pretty much every player who started on the way to the CL with a 'rebuild' is a very low bar. When he goes to a club and achieves beyond what is expected based on team, competitiveness and money money money, then I'll happily credit it. Hes a great manager, but there are countless who have achieved things he has not
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You mean that the team that didn't win a title in 2 seasons and finished 19 points behind Madrid could have coached themselves to a title? Makes you wonder why they failed in those 2 previous seasons right?
Who are the countless that have achieved things that he has not? And do you ask yourself why he's rated so highly amongst players and his colleagues?
 

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Flexdegea said:
Pains me to say buts he best manager about at the moment in my opinion.


But he way off the big boys when it comes to trophy count.
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Pep will go down as the best of all time for sure even though some others would have a nice trophy count with the teams Pep managed. Probably not as many which is why he will be thought of as the best. That’s the bottom line.
I would like to see him take a struggling team though just to see how that plays out.
As far as Klopp not winning enough? He’s up against the best PL side and Mgr of all time and holding his own. We should all be impressed by him.
 

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Trex said:
He might be about to change that now, but looking at his trophy count at Liverpool, should he be compared with the great managers, he has been Liverpool coach since Van gaal coached united.
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And he's claimed one domestic league title in that time.

Not really not that great all things considered.
 

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In the right context, and in their prime, I think there's only Pep I would take ahead of Klopp for certain situation like City, but in a general setting, or coming into a half-project and making the best out of it to make it a great team, I think I would take Klopp as the overall package. He's likeable by his players without compromising his demands from them, he's tactically sound where I can't recall games on the big stage where he cost his team by his decisions like other managers do at times, he doesn't seem to rock the boat too much, fans love him, and he's been put in different projects with different budgets and consistently tough competition.

His trophy count is actually pretty good considering the juggernaut that is City, which really should be steamrolling the league and kind of do, but Liverpool manages to catch up and keep up with them, which is outstanding on its own IMO.
 
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