Will Bruno achieve legend status at utd?

AndySmith1990 said:

If he were a great captain comparable to the likes of Robson or Keane, then sure he could, even if we won nothing. But he's not comparable to them. He's erratic, whiny and inconsistent, and he dives. In a great team he'd not be the star player or captain, he's only afforded that privilege here because we build poor teams. For me he's not capable of legend status

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Yeah, it's this.

It's not so much that he's a bad player (although he's definitely not elite). It's more the whole package - the attitude, the diving, the general desire to blame everyone but himself.

Barney Roney described his running as 'performative' after the Galatasaray game, and I thought it was spot on. It's like he's trying to show the crowd how hard he's trying, rather than playing to instruction.

He wouldn't get into a great team. That's why none of today's top teams have come for him.

Pogue Mahone said:

I don’t think Gerrard would have the legend status he does at Liverpool without the trophies they won while he was there.

Sticking with a club for a long time, or being the best of a bad bunch will seal legend status at clubs with low expectations (Matt Le Tissier) but for clubs like Liverpool and Manchester United it’s not going to happen without winning major trophies.

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True and maybe Liverpool don't win the trophies without him, which seals the deal (CL and FA Cup vs West Ham for example). However, Liverpool were on an unbelievably barren run pre-Klopp for a club of their size (same with us post-Fergie). Taking trophies out of it, we simply haven't had a player of Gerard's quality in our team post-2013. I'd argue Gerard would still be considered a legend by many within Liverpool's fanbase, even if they hadn't won any trophies.

Scandi Red said:

Or they simply disagree on the metrics? I have counted exactly 3 arguments against Bruno being a legend so far in this thread.

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For clarification - this isn’t a gotcha attempt - but what the legendary feats and performances that come to mind when you think of Bruno Fernandes - Manchester United player?

FrankWhite said:

A fun logic/reasoning check regarding Bruno, using four statements I've seen on this thread.

1) He's the reason we play well.
2) He's a consistent performer.
3) He plays pretty much all of our games.
4) We're crap in most of our games.

Are all the statements true? if not, which is the odd one(s) out?

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Ok I will bite number 1 is not true IMO, at least it is only occasionally true, I can easily see a better Utd without Bruno in the 1st 11, I can even envisage Mount being better than him in that false 10 role, Bruno as many have said is chaotic, there is some advantage in order.

That said the OP question was is he a Utd legend, which I TBH is not ruled in or out by any or all of your statements, I guess it comes down to your definition of Legend, I think that definition should be extremely personal, for me it purely comes down to how you feel or felt about a player, football is yes full of stats, but you know from watching the game so much more than the stats can tell you, for instance Wayne Rooney, obviously a Legend based on stats, trophies and performances, on that basis you could argue that he is one of our most Legendary players, but for me he would be down the pecking order, below players like Robbo, Rio, Schmeichel, Cantona, Beckham, it is just personal, emotional instinct.

Question for you:
Marcus Rashford 126 goals in 384 games,
OGS 126 goals in 366 games....
Who has the more legendary status at Utd?

I know which player gets into my mental highlight reel more than the other (BTW not meant as a dig at Rashford, I still love him).

You can add Andy Cole 121 in 275, still above Rashy! but then I was younger and not such a miserable cynic, maybe that is another factor

TsuWave said:

For clarification - this isn’t a gotcha attempt - but what the legendary feats and performances that come to mind when you think of Bruno Fernandes - Manchester United player?

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The problem (and keep in mind that I have a terrible memory) is that I honestly can't remember any legendary feats and single performances from a lot of players who I still consider legends. The other problem is that I don't think it's fair to compare a player in a struggling team and a player in a top team managed by the greatest manager in history.

Now if you want me to provide an explanation as to why I think Bruno probably should be remembered as a legend then I'm happy to do it later

Skills said:

It's because a large part of our fanbase get nothing out of actually watching a football match. I genuinely believe that.

They're all fixated on the long term - i.e. the Wikipedia entries on the trophy sheet, the tenure of a manager etc. Game to game, does nothing for our fans and they get nothing from watching good football, goals or performances. It's why they're not bothered by the 7-0s, 5-0s etc as long as erm we got top 4 or something of that ilk.

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It's a good job they get nothing from watching good football because aside from a month under Van Gaal, some rousing patches under Ole and maybe Barcelona under Ten Hag, there's been very little good football over the last 10 years.

Bruno not a legend for me. He's a poor choice of captain in terms of his attitude and his output/ performances have massively declined in the 4 years he's been here.

Can the man who captained a team to the worst mid season at the club since before people knew who Hitler was be considered a legend?

What defines a United Legend?

He is clearly not up there with the likes of Giggs, Cantona, Keane, Charlton, Best etc.

And i wouldn't say he is up there with the the second tier of legends - e.g. Andy Cole, Ole, Neville, Nobby Stiles etc who won multiple major trophies with the club and were key contributes. Even though from a tallent perspective, he may be equal or better than some players at this level.

From a status perspective, i would say he is currently on par with players like Lou Macari, Steve Coppel, Norman Whiteside, Paul McGrath. Good players, from an era of where the team was pretty poor.

For me the very starting point of legendary status is consistently very good/great performances over a long period of time. What pushes the player into undisputed are being the difference when it matters. Multiple times or in one iconic moment.

Bruno doesn’t even get close to the starting point of a discussion for me. He doesn’t even play well most games, over the time he’s been here and I can’t think of a single big moment.

Scandi Red said:

The problem (and keep in mind that I have a terrible memory) is that I honestly can't remember any legendary feats and single performances from a lot of players who I still consider legends. The other problem is that I don't think it's fair to compare a player in a struggling team and a player in a top team managed by the greatest manager in history.

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More often than not - those players will likely have places in dominant, title winning United teams - even if you can’t readily remember great individual showings - and the ones you’d argue don’t have places in those teams, likely have defining moments for the club in their catalogue.

Meanwhile Bruno is a good/decent, divisive player, with good productivity, albeit inconsistency in performances - that’s been at United for like 3.5 seasons/4 years - those being some of our worst in modern times. It’s OK to just be a good player/servant to the club.

I also don’t get how/why people keep framing/isolating Bruno from the “struggling team”. Bruno’s floor is really low and many would argue it’s a contributing factor why we’re so inconsistent. You can‘t be having three, four bad games back to back then show-up with two assists and 4 key passes against Luton and be “legendary” or talked as if you’re not part of/reason for the “struggling team”.

Jeppers7 said:

For me the very starting point of legendary status is consistently very good/great performances over a long period of time. What pushes the player into undisputed are being the difference when it matters. Multiple times or in one iconic moment.

Bruno doesn’t even get close to the starting point of a discussion for me. He doesn’t even play well most games, over the time he’s been here and I can’t think of a single big moment.

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Just fyi - this discussion will go on forever like that, because while for you, Bruno isn't playing very great (as visible in team performance and team output/success) while some other posters will argue that he is playing great because look at his individual numbers.

FrankWhite said:

A fun logic/reasoning check regarding Bruno, using four statements I've seen on this thread.

1) He's the reason we play well.
2) He's a consistent performer.
3) He plays pretty much all of our games.
4) We're crap in most of our games.

Are all the statements true? if not, which is the odd one(s) out?

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This is the essence for me as well. While he certainly isn't the only factor for our woes, it is odd to separate him from the rest of the team in the way, some posters seemingly do. For all his numbers, we as a team lack behind teams without a player with such numbers as Bruno. I can see why people come to the conclusion that you then have to look at his team mates because they are so much worse than in other teams but I don't think that is very convincing. I still think, we are playing in a way that is suiting him pretty well, not as good as under Ole but still close enough.

NZT-One said:

Just fyi - this discussion will go on forever like that, because while for you, Bruno isn't playing very great (as visible in team performance and team output/success) while some other posters will argue that he is playing great because look at his individual numbers.

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You go on forever…kind of sat in the middle like some judge of either side, in your own mind.
‘For me’ I’ve stated twice in my post. If you feel differently that’s fine….give your opinion? Nobody is asking you to sit in judgement of everyone else’s posts. Give an opinion, it’s a forum. I’m not claiming my posts will have legendary status.

For players like Bruno, imagine he played number 10 with Keane-Scholes/Butt behind him, Giggs, Beckham on the wings and Van Nistelrooy ahead of him. He'd be lethal. Or Vidic, Ferdinand, Evra, Carrick behind him.

KeanoMagicHat said:

For players like Bruno, imagine he played number 10 with Keane-Scholes/Butt behind him, Giggs, Beckham on the wings and Van Nistelrooy ahead of him. He'd be lethal. Or Vidic, Ferdinand, Evra, Carrick behind him.

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He wouldn't have played in those teams because he isn't at that level

NZT-One said:

Just fyi - this discussion will go on forever like that, because while for you, Bruno isn't playing very great (as visible in team performance and team output/success) while some other posters will argue that he is playing great because look at his individual numbers.

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Aye and it's the opinions that align with the objective stats which are wrong and those which contradict them that are correct. Makes sense.

Pogue Mahone said:

Aye and it's the opinions that align with the objective stats which are wrong and those which contradict them that are correct. Makes sense.

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The most objective stat is the league table.

hobbers said:

The most objective stat is the league table.

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Where to even start with nonsense like this....

TsuWave said:

More often than not - those players will likely have places in dominant, title winning United teams

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"More often than not" does not equal "always". That's why we're having the discussion to begin with. I believe that it's possible to achieve legend status at a club without winning major trophies. Of course it helps your case if you are heavily decorated, but it's not the be-all and end-all.

Most of our legends can check off at least 3 (typically 4) out of these 5:

- High skill-level
- High effort
- X-factor
- Long stay
- Numerous big trophies

Bruno can check off the first 3 in my opinion.

"Long stay" is a bit hard to define. He has been here longer than Stam and if he stays beyond the summer (which I suspect he will), then he will have been here longer than Cantona. But I doubt that he will stay as long as 10 years. Then again, the average length of stay among our legends is probably just 7 or 8 years, so it's hardly a disaster if Bruno leaves a year or two before that.

Although I still live in the hope that he has the longevity of Modric and stay here much longer.

Scandi Red said:

"More often than not" does not equal "always". That's why we're having the discussion to begin with. I believe that it's possible to achieve legend status at a club without winning major trophies. Of course it helps your case if you are heavily decorated, but it's not the be-all and end-all.

Most of our legends can check off at least 3 (typically 4) out of these 5:

- High skill-level
- High effort
- X-factor
- Long stay
- Numerous big trophies

Bruno can check off the first 3 in my opinion.

"Long stay" is a bit hard to define. He has been here longer than Stam and if he stays beyond the summer (which I suspect he will), then he will have been here longer than Cantona. But I doubt that he will stay as long as 10 years. Then again, the average length of stay among our legends is probably just 7 or 8 years, so it's hardly a disaster if Bruno leaves a year or two before that.

Although I still live in the hope that he has the longevity of Modric and stay here much longer.

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I mean if you arbitrarily cut sentences off when replying like that - you can make any point. I did say that when/if a player doesn’t have a place in said dominant teams or trophy winning teams they likely have a defining moment for the club in their catalogue. Bruno doesn’t have either.

We’re having this discussion because it’s a thread on redcafe. That doesn’t inherently mean it has merit. Majority of the replies I’ve seen are people confused as to how this is even a notion.

Bruno being highly skilled and/or having x-factor are both highly debated and contested points on this forum weekly. I can’t think of a single action in football that Bruno Fernandes is highly skilled at, that’s not to say he’s not skilled at all, mind. His effort has also been questioned by bonafide United legends, no less.

ItDoesntEvenMata said:

He wouldn't have played in those teams because he isn't at that level

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Nah, he would fit in just fine. One of the best players for one of the best teams in Europe at international level but couldn't play for a successful United team?

Pogue Mahone said:

Where to even start with nonsense like this....

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Yeah like Spurs definitely shouldn't have bought James Maddison from Leicester because the league table said so when they were relegated.

simplyared said:

Been at the club for "only" 4 yrs so not yet up there but he must have all the credentials surely?

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Why? What’s he achieved

No he’s bang average

Scandi Red said:

Although I still live in the hope that he has the longevity of Modric and stay here much longer.

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I don't think that Bruno has the capabilities to stay relevant as long as Modric, Bruno is a player who plays with high intensity and covers a lot of ground. To allow him to be useful well into his 30s, his passing must be much better.

Feel in key areas his passing let's him down, rushes a lot or try to play that unbelievable pass. I will put some blame on to him as to why we concede alot is due down to his consistent turn over rate. However, he can't do anything about our keeper being a fraud in plenty of moments, but we can't keep turning the ball over as much he does.

KDB is given such a luxury because he has the elite defense and goalkeeper that makes the risk of misplacing a pass much less threatening in conceding.

Bruno doesn't start for our biggest rivals. I don't even think he gets into Citys squad. He's just too careless with the ball and so, so poor when it comes to his decision making.

I'm convinced people here have never played football and think it relies purely on numbers, but from where I'm standing until we have a team full of team players that are less careless with the ball we will never get back to the top.

TsuWave said:

Bruno being highly skilled and/or having x-factor are both highly debated and contested points on this forum weekly. I can’t think of a single action in football that Bruno Fernandes is highly skilled at, that’s not to say he’s not skilled at all, mind. His effort has also been questioned by bonafide United legends, no less.

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We clearly watch a different game. In my circles, calling Bruno "highly skilled" or "hard working" is as obvious as stating that water is wet.

He's no Best or Charlton, but he's a better player than G.Neville and Solskjær and certainly comparable to Carrick and Evra. With Bruno it's not a matter of skill or effort. It's a matter of success. It's for the same reason that some posters don't consider De Gea a legend either, which in my opinion is crazy.

Scandi Red said:

We clearly watch a different game. In my circles, calling Bruno "highly skilled" or "hard working" is as obvious as stating that water is wet.

He's no Best or Charlton, but he's a better player than G.Neville and Solskjær and certainly comparable to Carrick and Evra. With Bruno it's not a matter of skill or effort. It's a matter of success. It's for the same reason that some posters don't consider De Gea a legend either, which in my opinion is crazy.

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Some players from winning teams are way overrated and ones from less successful ones are underrated, United won the league by 18 points with Bosnich, Taibi and Van der Gouw in goal, De Gea was several times the player of those. Or how De Gea won the league in 2012/13, despite being much better in later years, because the rest of the team was better around him that season and was managed by Ferguson.

I've no doubt Ferguson would love to have had a player like Bruno who works hard, has a strong mentality and would have won a few leagues with him in the team.

KeanoMagicHat said:

I've no doubt Ferguson would love to have had a player like Bruno who works hard, has a strong mentality and would have won a few leagues with him in the team.

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Yeah he'd absolutely crush it for Fergie. I reckon Shaw and Rashford would have done really well too.

dubplate warrior said:

Bruno doesn't start for our biggest rivals. I don't even think he gets into Citys squad. He's just too careless with the ball and so, so poor when it comes to his decision making.

I'm convinced people here have never played football and think it relies purely on numbers, but from where I'm standing until we have a team full of team players that are less careless with the ball we will never get back to the top.

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It’s genuinely mind blowing how so many of you keep making the same basic mistake when Bruno is being discussed. Nobody who thinks he is a good player thinks he’s a good player just because he has good stats. How many times does this need to be pointed out?!

There are, however, plenty of people who think he’s a good player based on watching him play football. When stats are produced which back up their opinion then those opinions are a lot more justified than opinions to the contrary but their opinions aren’t being formed because of the stats. Honestly, this shouldn’t be a difficult thing to grasp.

Yes, IF he stays few more years and lifts a trophy as a captain. UCL or EPL. Which is unlikely to happen. So i answer no.

Scandi Red said:

We clearly watch a different game. In my circles, calling Bruno "highly skilled" or "hard working" is as obvious as stating that water is wet.

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I did call him divisive. Plenty people appreciate his productivity regardless of the level of opposition it comes against or wild fluctuation in performance levels, but it’s not as if my opinion is an outlier. You can just look at this thread or his performance threads. And I did say he’s skilled, just not highly skilled relative to what I consider to be top players and to what we’ve previously had at this club. Out of curiosity - what do you consider Bruno highly skilled at?

What is Bruno's most memorable big game performance? Arsenal at home last season, maybe? Even then, you could say Eriksen was the main difference maker in that game.

Pogue Mahone said:

It’s genuinely mind blowing how so many of you keep making the same basic mistake when Bruno is being discussed. Nobody who thinks he is a good player thinks he’s a good player just because he has good stats. How many times does this need to be pointed out?!

There are, however, plenty of people who think he’s a good player based on watching him play football. When stats are produced which back up their opinion then those opinions are a lot more justified than opinions to the contrary but their opinions aren’t being formed because of the stats. Honestly, this shouldn’t be a difficult thing to grasp.

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I've seen the man drop as many stinkers as good games but when people point out the obvious, stats are pretty much always brought into the equation to defend his terrible performances. To those like yourself who watch and exalt him, you surely can see that more often than not, he plays terribly throughout the majority of the match?

He is one of the reasons we've been soooo open as a team, because he's so careless and leaves us prone to many turnovers. Our team is full of greedy, dumb, selfish players with questionable technique in tight spaces. Bruno is one of them.

He's also generally crap in big games, where not only the pressure is on bit you have less space and time on the ball. I'd say world class players and legends do it when you need it most, especially on the big stage.

FrankWhite said:

What is Bruno's most memorable big game performance? Arsenal at home last season, maybe? Even then, you could say Eriksen was the main difference maker in that game.

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That's an easy one. When we got battered 7-0 by our biggest rivals.

Doubt it

Like it, or not, he's our best and most consistent player.

dubplate warrior said:

I've seen the man drop as many stinkers as good games but when people point out the obvious, stats are pretty much always brought into the equation to defend his terrible performances. To those like yourself who watch and exalt him, you surely can see that more often than not, he plays terribly throughout the majority of the match?

He is one of the reasons we've been soooo open as a team, because he's so careless and leaves us prone to many turnovers. Our team is full of greedy, dumb, selfish players with questionable technique in tight spaces. Bruno is one of them.

He's also generally crap in big games, where not only the pressure is on bit you have less space and time on the ball. I'd say world class players and legends do it when you need it most, especially on the big stage.

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No. Because that doesn’t happen. Other than in your imagination anyway. Since he signed for us he has consistently been one of our better players. He has had some poor individual performances but, if anything, these are a lot less frequent than any other player in the squad.

The big games criticism is fair but we’re usually getting completely dominated in those games anyway (have you seen the state of our central midfielders these last few years?!) and a player like Bruno is rarely going to shine in a match where the opposition have an iron grip in midfield.

Anyway, this has feck all to do with whether he’s a legend or not so I’ll leave it at that. I just got triggered by yet another post accusing people of forming an opinion on him based on his statistics. Which literally nobody on here is doing.

Bruno is underrated and unappreciated. 70 goals and 59 assists in 212 appearences with the Club, the league leader in chances created this season, yet some of you want to see him sold. Absolutely mental.

The question to be asked is whether Bruno would slot in as a starter in any one of our great title winning sides. The 1999 treble winning team would be a step too far but there is no doubting that Bruno would have the quality to be a starter in our great 2008 double winning side and the sides that won titles after Ronaldo left. Bruno finds himself in a poor United side, so his value gets diminished. Robson who had similar bad luck playing on sides that couldn't win or complete for a title until his later years still had his signature big moments in cup competitions (Cup Winners Cup) and is widely touted as a legend. That moment so far has eluded Bruno, and that is the only real knock on his time at United, which could yet change in the future.

Pogue Mahone said:

No. Because that doesn’t happen. Other than in your imagination anyway. Since he signed for us he has consistently been one of our better players. He has had some poor individual performances but, if anything, these are a lot less frequent than any other player in the squad.

The big games criticism is fair but we’re usually getting completely dominated in those games anyway (have you seen the state of our central midfielders these last few years?!) and a player like Bruno is rarely going to shine in a match where the opposition have an iron grip in midfield.

Anyway, this has feck all to do with whether he’s a legend or not so I’ll leave it at that. I just got triggered by yet another post accusing people of forming an opinion on him based on his statistics. Which literally nobody on here is doing.

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I refer you to the post below your own. Exactly what I'm referring to with regards to stats.

Apologies for veering off point of the post.

dubplate warrior said:

I refer you to the post below.

Apologies for veering of the point of the thread.

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You've referred me to the same post. Here I am trying to spot the differences

Nope - he has been a very good player but you have to be really special to be considered a legend and Bruno hasn't been special enough. I can only think of 10-12 players I would consider legend over the 40 years I have supported United, and he isn't close to being one.