Transgender Athletes

BD

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VorZakone said:
You said citing J.K. Rowling on this issue is never a good look. Is it OK to cite Navratilova?
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I'm not sure, I don't know much of what she says. Is she as openly bigoted as JKR?

I guess this is going the direction of the thread title, as in: a more general discussion on transgender people in sports. Which is a topic I find hard to discuss, since on one hand I want to be able to give transgender people as equal rights and opportunities as possible, and yet I still kind of agree that it's difficult to argue that someone who was born a man, and maybe even went through puberty as a man, should be allowed to compete against people born as women. But at the end of it all, I would say that I don't know enough about gender vs sex in the context of sport, how much puberty matters, testosterone levels, etc. By which I mean, the scientific thinking at the moment, not random people from the street.

However, I was addressing the parkrun 'issue', where I would say: parkrun itself isn't a competition, there's no prize money, or big honour involved in it, so let's just allow transgender people this one area to feel welcome and accepted in sport, and not debate every minute detail of their lives and whether they're accepted there or not.
 

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BD said:
I'm not sure, I don't know much of what she says. Is she as openly bigoted as JKR?

I guess this is going the direction of the thread title, as in: a more general discussion on transgender people in sports. Which is a topic I find hard to discuss, since on one hand I want to be able to give transgender people as equal rights and opportunities as possible, and yet I still kind of agree that it's difficult to argue that someone who was born a man, and maybe even went through puberty as a man, should be allowed to compete against people born as women. But at the end of it all, I would say that I don't know enough about gender vs sex in the context of sport, how much puberty matters, testosterone levels, etc. By which I mean, the scientific thinking at the moment, not random people from the street.

However, I was addressing the parkrun 'issue', where I would say: parkrun itself isn't a competition, there's no prize money, or big honour involved in it, so let's just allow transgender people this one area to feel welcome and accepted in sport, and not debate every minute detail of their lives and whether they're accepted there or not.
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I get this. Maybe if female participation dropped one would have to re-evaluate, I doubt that will happen but I've learned not to be certain about anything.

My own sport is endurance walking/running, walking in my case. We publish finishing times but do not categorise by sex or age, and frown strongly on anyone who asks 'who won?'. We class them as events, not races.
 

Murder on Zidane's Floor

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Superden said:
firstly, im not a 'fan' of people changing their gender, and am pretty solid in my beliefs based on biological sex determining gender.
However, even i can see that the whole transgender in sport fixation is nothing about fairness, its simply a front in the culture war. and on that, J Liew nails it in his article. The amount of time, politicians and 'political' commentators spend debating these issues is ridiculous. its no coincidence that many of the same voices often (on social media at any rate) lament the 'urbanisation' of our towns and cities and lack of 'british / englishness', when what they really mean is that theres too many brown and black people. but they wont say it like that, because they are cowards.
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I think the debate rages on because politicians decided to propose changes that were hugely unpopular and hugely under discussed. What also happened was people who raised these issues were lambasted and tarred as bigoted monsters/also told that there were no trans athletes competing in sports etc.

When this was proven to be untrue, the vindication usually arrives full throated and loudly.

It also breeds distrust in the establishment
 

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Superden said:
firstly, im not a 'fan' of people changing their gender, and am pretty solid in my beliefs based on biological sex determining gender.
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At least you used the word belief, because you're just plain wrong.
 

arnie_ni

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maniak said:
At least you used the word belief, because you're just plain wrong.
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I've no side in this argument. Let people be who they want to be is my line of thought, but can someone's beliefs actually be wrong? People believe in all kinds of things, God, whatever else, is anyone right or wrong?

Or maybe this particular subject shouldn't be falling under "belief"?
 
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maniak

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arnie_ni said:
I've no side in this argument. Let people be who they want to be is my line of thought, but can someone's believes actually be wrong? People believe in all kinds of things, God, whatever else, is anyone right on wrong?

Or maybe this particular subject shouldn't be falling under "belief"?
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Sex and gender are two different things, so if you believe they are the same you are wrong. It's not god or united can get a point today, it's just fact.
 

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maniak said:
Sex and gender are two different things, so if you believe they are the same you are wrong. It's not god or united can get a point today, it's just fact.
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Hence my last sentence. This topic probably doesn't fall under beliefs
 

Murder on Zidane's Floor

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VorZakone said:
This was also retweeted by J.K. Rowling.

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It's their decision, if they want to make this stand. I mean, do I agree with it, I dunno to be honest, I understand where the cis woman is coming from but my level of empathy for the trans woman is that they just want to play pool.

I'm conflicted.
 

VorZakone

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Murder on Zidane's Floor said:
It's their decision, if they want to make this stand. I mean, do I agree with it, I dunno to be honest, I understand where the cis woman is coming from but my level of empathy for the trans woman is that they just want to play pool.

I'm conflicted.
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This is the 2nd time it happened to the trans pool player by the way.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/o...test-against-cites-law-states-right-play.html
https://www.edp24.co.uk/news/23927256.norwich-player-lynne-pinches-walks-away-pool-final/
 

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Murder on Zidane's Floor said:
It's their decision, if they want to make this stand. I mean, do I agree with it, I dunno to be honest, I understand where the cis woman is coming from but my level of empathy for the trans woman is that they just want to play pool.

I'm conflicted.
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I’m the same. It must be exceptionally difficult being trans and being accepted by society, and it feels just plain cruel to exclude those people even further. I notice the person cheering the player who conceded said “this is for all the women…”excluding the trans player to her face. Unnecessary and cruel. I could equally say that women in most sports get a fraction of the money and recognition, and placing further barriers to that is not fair to them.

It’s also important to own your own ignorance, and there’s an absolute ton of science on this subject that I’m painfully unaware of, and I really shouldn’t be.
 

Murder on Zidane's Floor

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VorZakone said:
This is the 2nd time it happened to the trans pool player by the way.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/o...test-against-cites-law-states-right-play.html
https://www.edp24.co.uk/news/23927256.norwich-player-lynne-pinches-walks-away-pool-final/
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I can see the other side, women's sport is hugely under represented and under funded so the ability to be pro is that much more limited, so for someone born male to join their ranks (perceived advantage or not) could be seen as women (cis) being pushed out.

I get both sides, I don't like to see someone publicly embarrassed or jeered (unless it's a Liverpool player) but yeah.
 

Murder on Zidane's Floor

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stepic said:
American Academy of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry
American Academy of Pediatrics
American Medical Association
American Psychiatric Association
American Psychological Association
Endocrine Society
Pediatric Endocrine Society
WPATH Standards of Care
World Health Organisation

as for your clarifying remark, what’s your point, that trans women aren’t cis women? Who is arguing that?
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I saw the updates about WPATH today. I searched WPATH on here and this was the only comment on it.

Someone leaked WPATH internal Comms etc.

If true, this is insane.

 
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Doracle

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Pogue Mahone said:
Pool is one of those sports where having separate male and female competitions kind of doesn’t make sense? What advantage does being born a male give you in pool?
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More power on the break is possibly a fairly significant benefit but, as sports go, it’s obviously one where there’s much less natural advantage than others.
 

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For whatever reason you only have to compare the averages to see that it does to a huge extent.

There are one or two who can compete sometimes but 99% can't compete with a good county A player.
 

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horsechoker said:
How does gender affect darts?
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I doubt it does at the physical level but I'm sure it does in terms of player development. I'm guessing the women's competitions are based on trying to encourage women to play/compete. A lot of dart boards are traditionally in very male spaces and that's not a great atmosphere for girls/women who are interested in playing but lack confidence and experience.

I don't know what stage women's darts is at in terms of competitions, sponsors, prizes etc. Competition, even if it's just recognition, can lead to some very callous and cruel behaviour and it can be worse as money creeps into the equation.

I don't know the details of Noa-Lynn van Leuven's back story, but if the summaries are accurate then she's already had to jump through a lot of hoops to compete as a woman and it just sounds cruel to take that from her. There are no particular physical advantages that mean that she'll always have an advantage playing darts - so the complaints just seems petty to me.

There is a legitimate fear in many competitive women's sports, that goes beyond any physical advantage though. The concern things like self-ID etc can become the wedge to also accepting concepts like gender fluidity that can potentially devalue (or even be used to deride) the women's classes.

In general, fear of derision is a huge factor putting off girls and women from participating in sport. Some sports will be more sensitive to that than others.
 

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The Cat said:
For whatever reason you only have to compare the averages to see that it does to a huge extent.
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Given how established men's darts is as well as how many blokes play in comparison to women I doubt simply comparing averages is in any way conclusive.
 

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If being male doesn't give you an advantage, why have women tournaments in the first place?
 

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Ekkie Thump said:
Given how established men's darts is as well as how many blokes play in comparison to women I doubt simply comparing averages is in any way conclusive.
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There are certainally some physical advantages. Average height and reach is one.

Amongst them is the example of Deta Hedman who has for years spoken about the female cycle affecting her regularly and later on the flushes she experiences.
 

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The Cat said:
There are certainally some physical advantages. Average height and reach is one.

Amongst them is the example of Deta Hedman who has for years spoken about the female cycle affecting her regularly and later on the flushes she experiences.
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Are taller darts players better? I genuinely don't know. I feel like short fatties win their fair share tbh.

Without knowing any better the menstrual cycle affecting performance sounds plausible.
 

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Ekkie Thump said:
Are taller darts players better? I genuinely don't know. I feel like short fatties win their fair share tbh.

Without knowing any better the menstrual cycle affecting performance sounds plausible.
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It's more a general observation there are some very good shorties but out of most of the players I've encountered the taller ones seem to be better on average.

Maybe it's just I'm pretty short so they all look tall :lol:
 

Doracle

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Ekkie Thump said:
Are taller darts players better? I genuinely don't know. I feel like short fatties win their fair share tbh.

Without knowing any better the menstrual cycle affecting performance sounds plausible.
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Phil Taylor is about average height for a woman, and he’s the greatest player ever, so I don’t think height is a key factor.

I suspect the difference is mainly due to the much smaller pool of women who play darts, rather than due to a particular physical disadvantage. Possibly having a bit more force behind the throw helps slightly but there’s no reason a woman can’t compete with men (as Beau Greaves will probably show us over the next few years).
 

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jojojo said:
I doubt it does at the physical level but I'm sure it does in terms of player development. I'm guessing the women's competitions are based on trying to encourage women to play/compete. A lot of dart boards are traditionally in very male spaces and that's not a great atmosphere for girls/women who are interested in playing but lack confidence and experience.

I don't know what stage women's darts is at in terms of competitions, sponsors, prizes etc. Competition, even if it's just recognition, can lead to some very callous and cruel behaviour and it can be worse as money creeps into the equation.

I don't know the details of Noa-Lynn van Leuven's back story, but if the summaries are accurate then she's already had to jump through a lot of hoops to compete as a woman and it just sounds cruel to take that from her. There are no particular physical advantages that mean that she'll always have an advantage playing darts - so the complaints just seems petty to me.

There is a legitimate fear in many competitive women's sports, that goes beyond any physical advantage though. The concern things like self-ID etc can become the wedge to also accepting concepts like gender fluidity that can potentially devalue (or even be used to deride) the women's classes.

In general, fear of derision is a huge factor putting off girls and women from participating in sport. Some sports will be more sensitive to that than others.
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It's improving slowly, but if you go to a Rileys or a lot of snooker and darts joints it's overwhelmingly male in there.

I think darts, certainly in the UK, has genuinely tried to be progressive and encourage the women's game (with the PDC everything is for financial gain). Certain talented women players have been nurtured, eg Anastasia Dobromyslova few years ago, and now Fallon Sherrock and Beau Greaves.
The male dart players seem to have relaxed a bit about it too. Fallon beating a bunch of decent male players on TV (largely)broke down that stigma of losing to a woman that they held. It hasn't worked out for Greaves when she's tried to make that step up to TV tournaments yet and Sherrock seems to have fallen back a bit, but having a top woman player challenging for tournaments feels more likely a matter of when, not if. Greaves might yet do it as well.
 

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LawCharltonBest said:
biological men generally have more natural strength, which offers advantage in most sports
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But in darts that difference is basically null and void. Height and reach might help but it's largely about being able to throw accurately.

I understand the complications with trans people in different sports where athleticism plays a bigger role but sports like darts it's barely a factor. I understand the reasons also for having separate women's divisions but I can't see the justification for excluding trans women from it.
 

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horsechoker said:
But in darts that difference is basically null and void. Height and reach might help but it's largely about being able to throw accurately.

I understand the complications with trans people in different sports where athleticism plays a bigger role but sports like darts it's barely a factor. I understand the reasons also for having separate women's divisions but I can't see the justification for excluding trans women from it.
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Strength contributes to precision. Which also would benefit the biological male over longer periods of time in long matches.

There are also scientists who believe males naturally have better hand eye coordination than females. This would cover darts, pool and the like.
 

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LawCharltonBest said:
Strength contributes to precision. Which also would benefit the biological male over longer periods of time in long matches.

There are also scientists who believe males naturally have better hand eye coordination than females. This would cover darts, pool and the like.
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Hand eye coordination and even more so depth perception.
 

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LawCharltonBest said:
Strength contributes to precision. Which also would benefit the biological male over longer periods of time in long matches.

There are also scientists who believe males naturally have better hand eye coordination than females. This would cover darts, pool and the like.
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I have very little knowledge of darts but how much does strength and endurance actually factor? You are throwing an object of under 2 ounces a distance of under 8 feet. I've not seen that it's the most 'in shape' guys who tend to do best at the professional level and I would guess that some would try and eke out those small margins if it was a real factor?

I also thought women at least matched men in some target sports such as air rifle shooting in the Olympics - I'm not sure that darts is much more physically demanding?

Happy to be corrected but it does seem to me like one of the sports where male physiology would matter less in terms of competitive advantage.
 

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DanH said:
I have very little knowledge of darts but how much does strength and endurance actually factor? You are throwing an object of under 2 ounces a distance of under 8 feet. I've not seen that it's the most 'in shape' guys who tend to do best at the professional level and I would guess that some would try and eke out those small margins if it was a real factor?

I also thought women at least matched men in some target sports such as air rifle shooting in the Olympics - I'm not sure that darts is much more physically demanding?

Happy to be corrected but it does seem to me like one of the sports where male physiology would matter less in terms of competitive advantage.
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Well my husband would always beat me at darts. He's also better at pools and it's not because I'm not trying. I'm extremely competitive.
 

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DanH said:
I have very little knowledge of darts but how much does strength and endurance actually factor? You are throwing an object of under 2 ounces a distance of under 8 feet. I've not seen that it's the most 'in shape' guys who tend to do best at the professional level and I would guess that some would try and eke out those small margins if it was a real factor?

I also thought women at least matched men in some target sports such as air rifle shooting in the Olympics - I'm not sure that darts is much more physically demanding?

Happy to be corrected but it does seem to me like one of the sports where male physiology would matter less in terms of competitive advantage.
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Definitely all in the physiology.


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