American Academy of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry
It also isn't as simple as adjusting hormone levels if someone has gone through puberty as a male. I also think medicating people in this way as a condition for participating in sport is somewhat ethically dubious as well.
And you think that gender assignment surgery happens to 10 or 11 year olds? Kids usually not old enough even to need puberty delaying medication? Straw man much?
Yes, that’s a result of not competing in every event & every meet.
Once again a decent sensible post. It does seem from this thread that there is a massive lack of empathy and understanding about a group of children/teens for whom life is already extremely difficult and confusing.
Seeing someone's difficulties used so openly in culture wars on both sides of the Atlantic has a huge impact on both physical and mental wellbeing. The left handedness graph is a brilliant analogy and one I have used with family and friends to explain why gender dysphoria may appear to be more common today than it was when they were kids.
Amazing that nobody has thought of that before. Probably because we are thick or a WUM.
What about the thousands of girls who aspire to be an athlete only to have their hope squashed by the new girl in town who everyone know can't be beaten no matter how hard you try and have to forget about sports.
Thanks for this, I don't think I implied it was a "simple equation" In fact I was pretty clear that I don't have an answer.
Then I'd suggest you've not really been engaging in the actual discussion, but the separate debate I alluded to about the core principles of youth sport.
I think this is a good post and kind of sums up my thoughts on the topic. It is very difficult because in the current state of society and our understanding and capabilities when it comes to gender reassignment, there is always going to be a group missing out in one way or another, whether that is cis women or trans women. It's also hard like you said in other posts that it's difficult to know what is the right call.
Teetering is a good word for it, given we seem to be moving forward in some places and lurching backwards in others.
Good post.
Hold one, this is Schroedinger's trans kids, they are both a rare minority, yet there are simultaneously millions of them?
As far as pro sports go, I think it’s relatively simple. For most sports, a ban is the only option for trans women who have gone through male puberty given the potential advantages. That’s unfortunate but 99% of the world’s population aren’t able to be pro athletes because of the body they were born in. No different here. Live a good life doing something where you aren’t getting a competitive advantage.
Never felt that graph made sense because left handedness is innate and has always been around 10% the only reduction was when writing and education was introduced at the turn of the century. Those people were still left handed and if it was a similar situation, you'd have a steady increase in numbers every year, yet we don't have increases in left handedness across society.
I think this is where difficulty arises and empathy is lost when you post things like 'live a good life doing something else'. For some people athletics is what a good life is to them so to suggest they drop that and do something else can come across as opposition to finding a way for inclusion and opposition to acceptance. Banning isn't the right way. There are various options, none of which are perfect currently, but I don't think banning is the correct method because it is something which creates greater divide and quite rightly can be seen as non-acceptance if you're not creating an alternative.
You are right and that's why the male competitions shouldn't be male sports but an open category. Banning is not the right way and it's not even close to be the most obvious way.
If you have a child you know what they feel…
Might be one of those old wives tales but apparently the NBA is an open category, it's not a male league, it's open to anyone.
Yeah, no NBA rules prevents it. Also if I'm not mistaken FIFA doesn't prevent females from playing with males. But my experience is that at the MHSC academy girls weren't allowed to play with academy boys outside of the academy's grounds.
That’s such an Irish phrase! Is it a direct translation of something you would regularly say in Noggie land?If you have a child you know what they feel…
Sure. That’s why no parents are surprised by their kids coming out
You’ve dragged down the level of this thread something fierce.
Does this not just circle back to the point Doracle made about how lots of people already can't compete though?
I didn't know that it was irish. It's one of my favorites.
I don't think that's a good example because we know that some professional footballers can be cut from academies, drop a level and then rise back up to become a professional at the top of the game. They aren't banned, they still have opportunity.
Nah, I’ve just come across that phrase a bunch of times. My English vocab is better than my Norwegian, not even kidding.
Even track and field isn't as simple as adding an extra competitor. You can't just magic an extra lane for inclusion's sake so there will always be finite space available for competitors. Same goes for swimming.
Most national FA rules didn't allow girls to compete with boys in organised football after about 12/13. The English FA have now upped the age limit to 18. The rule change was made mostly because there's not enough competition at the girls level yet in some parts of the country and the nearest (appropriate level) women's team might be a long/impossible trip by public transport.
Some teenagers make it after being cut, but vast swathes don't. The very nature of the academy system means more will miss out than make it, and plenty will get very close to a professional contract without ever seeing one. I think it's a fine example to use as a comparison.
I do agree for now that it is a good start for opportunity and inclusion, but perhaps in the future there will be further opportunities for inclusion in different ways. As I said previously I think that also depends on advancements made in terms of gender reassignment and society in general.
We've had people on the other side of the argument make the same exact point about women:
and I wouldn't say I agree with everything they've said either. I think in terms of the past few pages there are elements from both sides I agree/disagree with and comments from both sides that are unhelpful in the debate.
Somewhat different when it’s done to an already vulnerable minority with high suicide rates. Someone’s getting the shorter end of this stick regardless, I can see the point in trying to allevite a very rough existence for trans people.
I don't think it was dismissive as much as it was a clear line drawn. They even began their post stating that they were referring solely to pro-sports, the most exclusionary level of sports.
We obviously interpret their post differently.
As a wider point, I think a lot of posts in this thread have been subject to unfair interpretations. I don't think this necessarily applies to you, however.
I agree, it is a tough topic because we are in the early stages of navigating it but I think engaging in the subject in good faith is all we can really ask for on the forum and the wider world.
I’m sure the batshit owner of Perugia 20 or so years ago tried to sign a female player but she turned it down for various reasons. He did sign Gaddafi’s son though
