By GOAT you don't actually mean Greatest of All Tlme, surely?
The RedCafe Boxing Thread
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) was joined by comedian Ali Woods to look back at the best and worst moments of a rollercoaster season with the annual United Hour Awards.
Has Ten Hag been sacked yet? We're not sure and we hope not, but it's looking more likely as the days pass.
Who should replace him and why is it taking so long to make a decision?
Da!
Out of curiosity, who are considered the p4p GOATs in boxing?
Usyk beats them all, Ali, Marciano, Tyson, Lewis. The guys a cruiser weight fighting guys so much bigger than him. He’s an outstanding fighter in terms of skill set, mental agility and technique. He has all bases covered, he doesn’t have any weaknesses.
Most would put Sugar Ray Robinson.
I think he has a good chance of defeating everyone, but I wouldn’t have him as favorite against Ali and Lewis, maybe Tyson and Foreman too.
I was excited yesterday too in the heat of the moment, but let’s be fair, his heavyweight resume is very thin compared to the GOATs. Essentially, outside of outpointing Fury and Joshua, he doesn’t have much. And Fury is just a top 20 all timer in heavyweights, Joshua at best is a top 50.
Stop it.
Usyk has an unbelievable skill set. And heavy weights are much bigger now even compared to Tyson’s era. All this rubbish about the current heavyweight generation being no good is bollocks. They’re fittter, bigger and stronger than ever as physical preparation improves with advancing sport sciences. The skill level shown yesterday by both boxes was outstanding. Usyk’s undefeated, is an undisputed champion at cruiser and heavyweights and an Olympic champion. No other boxer has achieved that. That’s a GOAT imo!
There's always one 
At least make the effort to counter my arguments rather that just insulting me. Actually, it’s pathetic & cheap. Explain to me why you think I’m wrong or shut it and stop insulting my intelligence.
@Inter Yer Nan not been on since last year. 
No denying it was a good fight.
Pre fight the main talk being Usyk was considered the better boxer but could he give away the height, weight and reach? There can now be no doubt pound for pound Usyk is easily the better fighter.
Completely missed round 12 after my stream went down so rewatched in full this morning in much better quality. Happy that my scorecard was exactly the same going into that last round as when I watched live.
I'm sure nobody will particular care about my round-by-round (more of a record for me to look back at if I score this again one day) but for what it's worth:
Round 1 - Fury looking comfortable and playing to the crowd, establishing the jab somewhat but a lot of these blocked and not much else other than a right hook to the body. Usyk takes this with the straight lefts to the body and the cleanest shot of the round upstairs towards the end.
Usyk 10-9, 10-9 Usyk overall
Round 2 - This is so close - Usyk clearly winning the first half of the round thanks to the clean 1-2 at the start and more bodywork, but Fury with a couple of nice bodyshots himself and a lovely counter upper-cut towards the end of the round. Gonna edge towards Fury here, but potential swing round.
Fury 10-9, 19-19 overall
Round 3 - Usyk round for me, again working the body nicely, controlling the centre of the ring and threatening more with the power hand upstairs.
Usyk 10-9, 29-28 Usyk overall
Round 4 - Usyk quick out the gates again but Fury instantly responds with a series of good body shots, starting to put more combinations together this round and step up the output with his power shots. noticeably having much more success landing upstairs as a result.
Fury 10-9, 38-38 overall
Round 5- Fury round. Continues to be busier than he was the opening rounds, more combination punching and good bodywork.
Fury 10-9, 48-47 Fury overall
Round 6 - Clearest Fury round so far - a couple of effective uppercuts in particular looked like they had an effect.
Fury 10-9, 58-56 Fury overall
Round 7 - Not as clear as I initially maybe had this, Usyk landed a few good left hands to the head, but overall I think still a Fury round. Starting to control the pace and where this fight is taking place more, working the uppercut again well and combinations. More on the front foot and using his size more to his advantage.
Fury 10-9, 68-65 Fury overall
Round 8 - Usyk more aggressive this round, trying to hold the control of the ring once again and more spiteful with his shots. The left hand landing a bit harder and a bit more clean this round. Momentum starting to shift.
Usyk 10-9, 77-75 Fury overall
Round 9 - Credit to Fury for surviving but he was very, very lucky to make it out of this round. Saved by the bell and potentially by the ref who on another day may have stopped that rather than calling a knockdown from him hitting the ropes. Usyk perhaps should have thrown caution to the wind and unloaded more before that point though and forced a finish.
Usyk 10-8, 85-85 overall
Round 10 - Usyk continuing to open up more and headhunt and having success with the left-hand the first half of the round. Noticably slowed in the second and allowed fury to continue to recover and find his way back into it a little, but did enough to clinch the round still.
Usyk 10-9, 95-94 Usyk overall
Round 11- Usyk round, continuing to press Fury on the backfoot and landing the straight lefts and a couple of sweeping overhand rights as Fury backs up. Fury having some success but a clean left-hand at the very end from Usyk really helps clinch it.
Usyk 10-9, 105-103 Usyk overall
Round 12 - Another very close round, Usyk with the much cleaner work in the first half of the round but Fury coming back with a couple of nice power shots of his own, good 1-2 and a sweeping right. Edging towards Usyk again but potential swing round.
Usyk 10-9, final score 115-112 Usyk
Based on my swing rounds, I can see 8-4 Usyk or 6-6 with the knockdown then making the difference. Not mad at any of the judges cards as this was obviously a close and highly competitive fight, but personally I can't find a scorecard with Fury winning this.
I'm sure nobody will particular care about my round-by-round (more of a record for me to look back at if I score this again one day) but for what it's worth:
Round 1 - Fury looking comfortable and playing to the crowd, establishing the jab somewhat but a lot of these blocked and not much else other than a right hook to the body. Usyk takes this with the straight lefts to the body and the cleanest shot of the round upstairs towards the end.
Usyk 10-9, 10-9 Usyk overall
Round 2 - This is so close - Usyk clearly winning the first half of the round thanks to the clean 1-2 at the start and more bodywork, but Fury with a couple of nice bodyshots himself and a lovely counter upper-cut towards the end of the round. Gonna edge towards Fury here, but potential swing round.
Fury 10-9, 19-19 overall
Round 3 - Usyk round for me, again working the body nicely, controlling the centre of the ring and threatening more with the power hand upstairs.
Usyk 10-9, 29-28 Usyk overall
Round 4 - Usyk quick out the gates again but Fury instantly responds with a series of good body shots, starting to put more combinations together this round and step up the output with his power shots. noticeably having much more success landing upstairs as a result.
Fury 10-9, 38-38 overall
Round 5- Fury round. Continues to be busier than he was the opening rounds, more combination punching and good bodywork.
Fury 10-9, 48-47 Fury overall
Round 6 - Clearest Fury round so far - a couple of effective uppercuts in particular looked like they had an effect.
Fury 10-9, 58-56 Fury overall
Round 7 - Not as clear as I initially maybe had this, Usyk landed a few good left hands to the head, but overall I think still a Fury round. Starting to control the pace and where this fight is taking place more, working the uppercut again well and combinations. More on the front foot and using his size more to his advantage.
Fury 10-9, 68-65 Fury overall
Round 8 - Usyk more aggressive this round, trying to hold the control of the ring once again and more spiteful with his shots. The left hand landing a bit harder and a bit more clean this round. Momentum starting to shift.
Usyk 10-9, 77-75 Fury overall
Round 9 - Credit to Fury for surviving but he was very, very lucky to make it out of this round. Saved by the bell and potentially by the ref who on another day may have stopped that rather than calling a knockdown from him hitting the ropes. Usyk perhaps should have thrown caution to the wind and unloaded more before that point though and forced a finish.
Usyk 10-8, 85-85 overall
Round 10 - Usyk continuing to open up more and headhunt and having success with the left-hand the first half of the round. Noticably slowed in the second and allowed fury to continue to recover and find his way back into it a little, but did enough to clinch the round still.
Usyk 10-9, 95-94 Usyk overall
Round 11- Usyk round, continuing to press Fury on the backfoot and landing the straight lefts and a couple of sweeping overhand rights as Fury backs up. Fury having some success but a clean left-hand at the very end from Usyk really helps clinch it.
Usyk 10-9, 105-103 Usyk overall
Round 12 - Another very close round, Usyk with the much cleaner work in the first half of the round but Fury coming back with a couple of nice power shots of his own, good 1-2 and a sweeping right. Edging towards Usyk again but potential swing round.
Usyk 10-9, final score 115-112 Usyk
Based on my swing rounds, I can see 8-4 Usyk or 6-6 with the knockdown then making the difference. Not mad at any of the judges cards as this was obviously a close and highly competitive fight, but personally I can't find a scorecard with Fury winning this.
Close to mine. I would have probably given round 7 to Usyk and round 12 to Fury, but the result would have been the same.
This is exactly how I saw the fight too. I felt it could go either way on the night. Great fight and hopefully the rematch happens.
At first I thought it a draw but having watched it again I think Usyk gets it.
Yep. Love Usyk but he's just not enough fights plus it's hardly a golden era
Agree with all of this apart from round 12, Fury clearly hurt Usyk in this round and what a lot of people fail to see in the fight Usyk was throwing a lot of punches throughout the fight but he was missing or being blocked much more than Fury which is why two of the judges had the fight so close.
For me it was it was 6 rounds each but Usyk wins on the 10-8 round, also subjectively one or two of the rounds could have been scored 10/10 draw.
He should have stuck with Ben Davison; Sugarhill doesn’t seem very tactically astute and and a bit entitled due to the Kronk link. Fury’s not a big enough puncher to fight the style he wants him to.
I think Fury will kick himself when he watches it back that he wasn’t more aggressive and should have pushed forward after rounds 5 & 6, Usyk looked a bit deflated at that time and Fury seemed less open when he was being aggressive with the right hand.
Usyk would have struggled against Riddick Bowe who would have been too big, prime Foreman and Prime Larry Holmes, even Leon Spinks would have given him huge problems, a top fighter like Ray Mercer would have given him huge problems, this era is just pretty average and that’s an honest opinion.
Interestingly I actually think right now Parker and a Focused Ruiz would give him problems too.
If Fury doesn't beat usyk in a rematch, a lot of the lustre has gone out of him v AJ. At least, for me. Which is a real shame. The moment will have gone.
90's had the best era of HW's ever. I think for as great as he is, Usyk would have struggled in that era to be number 1. Lewis, for instance hit too hard for him.
Come on behave he’s a great fighter in an average era, but prime Holyfield and Tyson basically 15’10 stone fast heavyweights with great technical ability and far more destructive power would have been too much for him. As for big heavyweights like Foreman, Lewis or Riddick Bowe he would have had huge problems.
But mentioning him in the same breath as Ali is absurd, Remember Artur Beterbiev beat him in the Amateurs, he’s not unbeatable. I actually think the rematch could easily end up in Tyson Favour, Great Boxer yes, Hall of Fame yes, Top 10 of all time?
No.
He needs to clean up the division first?
Parker, Ruiz, Wilder, Hergovic, Zhang,
J Anderson, and probably needs to beat Fury again then we can start talking about potentially top 3/5 of all time!
People are so quick to proclaim someone as the goat these days.
Not just Lewis, Holyfield, Bowe, Tyson, Golatta, Mercer, Tua, Rahman, Douglas, T Morrison, F Botha, Bruno, Ruddock, O McCall, Bonecrusher Smith really was a golden era!
Ten of them at one point all held world championship belts.
They really are, Usyk was fantastic last night but he could have lost the fight, had this been a prime Fury from a few years back I think the result would be different, to me it was a great fight but both look on the slide, Usyk missed an awful lot last night, a lot more than he normally does.
He’s not unbeatable but you really need to learn from your mistakes against him, AJ didn’t but I think Fury will.
Good post that. Exactly the same score card from me except I gave 12 to Fury as I feel he connected more power punches. Don't get the people that are saying Usyk walked this, was an extremely close fight and I feel the Usyk knockdown won it for him.
Oh and I'm definitely not a Fury fan.
He really does have weaknesses and I’m a huge fan, he’s 37 and aging, he’s less accurate than he used to be and as proven yesterday gets hit more frequently, he’s susceptible to a check hook and long and short uppercut, however he’s a truly great fighter in an average era but as someone who went to watch Lewis Fight in vegas and watched prime Tyson fight in Maddison Gardens live, he would not have been dominant in that era, David Tua was similar high energy southpaw but with much more of a ferocious punch and he never did too much damage to an era that had so many great fighters.
Prime Tyson definitely would have hurt Usyk in a bad way.
Not really sure how anyone is giving Fury 7 rounds, I’ll watch it again tomorrow and see.
I would say it was 6-6 in terms of rounds with the knockdown doing the damage. I can't help but think Fury should have taken a knee and an 8 count, as soon as we he went against the ropes, instead of absorbing the bombardment he did. Which meant the next round was a write-off for him as he tried to get back in it.
Usyk the deserved winner but thought it was much closer than many are saying.
Usyk the deserved winner but thought it was much closer than many are saying.
Foreman was at 218lbs vs Ali, so lighter than Usyk yesterday. And they are the same height.
Bowe was at 240 vs Holyfield, just 7lbs than Usyk yesterday.
Lewis at 246lbs.
I think people miss how big the heavyweights are nowadays, that what are considered historical bigs are essentially same weight/height as Usyk, and quite a bit smaller than Fury.
I think he defeats everyone you mentioned in this era. Parker and Ruiz are significantly worse than him and do not have any height advantage (Ruiz has fat advantage though). Wilder is finished. Hergovic and Zhang might be interested but I think Usyk has too much skill for them, would easily outpoint Zhang.
Come on let's not be ridiculous though. Tua was a less technical version of Iron Mike, he had a ferocious punch but nothing else. Usyk easily outpoints him considering that he is better at everything except power.
Absolutely. The heavyweights are way bigger now than in the “golden era’s” and fitter as well. Both Fury & Usyk were still moving on their feet in the 12th. I also think Usyk’s boxing skills are vastly underrated. I think it’s an insult to Usyk, he is an extremely skilled boxer. And I think Fury would have beaten Usyk had he made better use of his reach and weight advantage.
One thing that needs to be mentioned is that the last 2 rounds were very tame for such a big fight. This is because Usyk knew he just needed to box patiently and not get knocked down whilst Fury was being told by his corner that he was winning so he also didn't go all out. Fury's brain was clearly scrambled after the punishment he took in the 9th and I'd assume he would have been conscious of the fact that he was behind had he not suffered those huge head shots. It goes to show how important your corner is when the going gets tough and he must consider getting rid of people like his knuckle dragging Dad who is telling Tyson what he wants to hear rather than what he needs to hear.
That's totally untrue, the fighters of some of the previous eras were boxing 15 rounds consistently they were better conditioned athletes by a distance. Remember Sugar Ray Robinson vs Joey Maxim the referee had to be replaced mid fight as a result, they had superior endurance and stamina.
Comparing era's is a pointless debate imo impossible to draw conclusions because while the cliche of styles making fights is relevant there are too many variables. As it stands Usyk's pedigree at heavyweight is measured against: Fury (very close fight), Joshua, Dubios, Chisora and Witherspoon. It's a sample size that's miniscule and absolutely naive to suggest any heavyweight of this modern era stacking up against the greats of the previous periods.
As sporting science has progressed, so have the boxes. Diet, training, resting, everything had improved and it would be naive to think that fighting sports haven’t picked up on the progress in science. But I do agree it’s a bit futile to compare sporters of different era’s.
Leon Spinks is an enigma who is ultimately only known for beating an absolutely washed Ali and being a wasted talent, I'm not really sure what we can take of this. He probably could have given most great HW's some problems if he stayed on the right path and boxed to his best, don't think that's peak-for-peak better than Usyk though.
You also mention Mercer would cause him problems hypothetically... he also literally did this to Lewis and Holyfield who are regarded as 2 of the best HW's ever, so this would be nothing new. Again, I'd pick Usyk to win H2H.
Of course the era is somewhat lacking but you have to respect the achievements, going undisputed at CW and then moving up and beating the 2 other top guys in the era who are both legit super-heavies and never being beaten (for now anyway) is pretty remarkable.
I don't think we're necessarily talking about Usyk as a top HW of all-time in H2H stakes, but these days when you're discussing the HWs it's almost like a P4P discussion in itself given you've got a mix of guys who are natural cruiserweights vs 6'6, 250lb monsters.
The same arguments you are making here you could make against Holyfield, Joe Louis, Marciano - all 3 of whom are regarded as top 10 HW's of all-time (with Louis generally a lot higher than that).
If Usyk beats Fury again in the rematch and maybe defends 2-3 more times retiring undefeated, I do think he deserves to be in that conversation.
Real HW GOAT is Ike Ibeabuchi.
This is the take.
Usyk is undoubtably a great P4P boxer, and as things stand a good heavyweight as he’s held his own in that division. But he needs to clean it up with the variety of fighters active in the division.
I think that’s what holds current HWs back from previous eras - they seem to get to the top just want to “stay” there without proving their continued worth. Older HWs seemed to have a hunger where getting the title was just the start - you then had to beat everyone and stay there to be considered great.
Usyk has done his climb, and he doesn’t have to prove anything to anyone, but for him to be considered in a wider conversation he needs to stay there. Otherwise he’s just a top fighter of the moment.
Also cross-generational comparisons are always hard. Imagine Ali with modern sport science, less political controversy and today’s sport audience and **** of personality? If you thought of-his-time Ali was great and larger than life….
Also also single boxer fans make me laugh. Spend the entire build up calling Fury a bum / washed / bad boxer, and then acting as if Usyk dismantled him completely and then acting as if it’s worth something! Any reasonable person will tell you that was a good close fight between the best two in the division and ultimately the best on the night won.
OMG FURY IS TERRIBLE. OMG USYK WON HES THE GOATTTTT FR FR.
Exactly and if their is a rematch there is no guarantee Usyk wins that fight, Fury makes slight adjustments, stops showboating comes in about 7lbs heavier and go after Usyk early, plus he throws the check hook which would have had huge success last night.