4-4-2

Question234

New Member
Joined
Feb 3, 2015
Messages
2,598
Location
?
I don't know which quote you're referencing, but the only one I saw was this:

“You have always players who are excel in the first match and you also have players who are not so good and that I have seen. Lingard holds much more the width than Mata for example so I was very plaesed with Lingard also and because of that we have created more chances in the 2nd half.”

I don't think that's a criticism so much as a statement of fact. Mata's played right wing the same way for half a season under LvG. If it were a problem, he'd have been dropped ages ago.
yeah, more of an observation that a fact.

Mata was blatantly playing the false R.winger role when we hit our peak last season. He was given the free role to roam as well, if he was only meant to maintain width by staying on his line he would of been dropped i while ago.
 

Borys

Statistics Wizard
Joined
May 10, 2013
Messages
9,201
Location
Bielsko Biala, Poland
Very few other teams have the box-to-box midfielders required to make 4-4-2 work. We do. In fact, we've got 4 of them.

Since we're going to be playing a possession game and our formation will be relatively compact, it probably won't hurt us too much playing with only 2 in the middle. It's true that a 4-3-3 can give you more passing options in the middle third, but that issue should be moot under an LvG system.

I don't see us being outpassed or bullied if we play with any two out of Schneid, Carrick, Basti or Herrera. And with Mata likely to come inside quite a lot, being outnumbered won't be a problem either.
We definitely didn't buy two midfielders to play 2 man midfield. I would agree that Schneiderlin and Herrera would do a job as b2b, but Schweisteiger and Carrick definitely not.

This thread is getting too much attention, we won't play that way.
 

Walters_19_MuFc

Full Member
Joined
Sep 3, 2013
Messages
29,864
Location
Birmingham
Because I want us to do better this season then just scraping into 4th?
Playing that system wasn't the reason we scraped into fourth. Actually, if we played the system from the start, we could have possibly finished in a better position.
 

Truedevil

Full Member
Joined
Nov 25, 2013
Messages
3,405
Carrick, Schweinsteiger, Fellaini, Herrera, Schneiderlin + Blind, Pereira

Not logic would dictate a two man midfield with this many midfielders.
 

JPRouve

can't stop thinking about balls - NOT deflategate
Scout
Joined
Jan 31, 2014
Messages
66,756
Location
France
Carrick, Schweinsteiger, Fellaini, Herrera, Schneiderlin + Blind, Pereira

Not logic would dictate a two man midfield with this many midfielders.
I suspect that Fellaini and Pereira aren't considered as central midfielder, and rightly so.
 

Truedevil

Full Member
Joined
Nov 25, 2013
Messages
3,405
I suspect that Fellaini and Pereira aren't considered as central midfielder, and rightly so.
In last year's 4-1-4-1 they should be considered one as Fellaini played some kind of AM in that formation.
 

Walters_19_MuFc

Full Member
Joined
Sep 3, 2013
Messages
29,864
Location
Birmingham
Carrick, Schweinsteiger, Fellaini, Herrera, Schneiderlin + Blind, Pereira

Not logic would dictate a two man midfield with this many midfielders.
Van Gaal has already said that only the four players highlighted will be occupying the holding role.

“Schneiderlin has to fight with Schweinsteiger, Michael Carrick and Daley Blind.

“These are the players who can play in the centre of midfield.


http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/...field-place-says-louis-van-gaal-10394865.html
 

shivab

New Member
Joined
Jul 28, 2013
Messages
1,084
theres no point playing this formation with rooney and depay up top. he tried this with di maria and rooney before and didnt really work as a possession based system but worked for counter attacking. rooney needs a proper striker as a partner and depay belongs on the left wing.
 

ghagua

Full Member
Joined
Jul 12, 2012
Messages
5,992
Not really bothered which system he plays or who he plays, pre season is all about getting fitness up for the players, but i also don't want to hear him making fecking excuses about players taking time to learn his philosophy crap. Yea it's nice to try out different systems, but players should be playing in a system that will be primarily used during the season. Let the players get used to that system, and fit the players to that system.
 

Giggsy92

Full Member
Joined
Jul 13, 2008
Messages
4,135
I don't think it would be such a bad thing, we were pretty rubbish going forward a lot of the time last season so any change which makes us more offensive or adds an extra attacking player to the system is fine by me. I still fully expect to see 4-3-3 in the big matches though.
 

Rowem

gently, down the stream
Joined
Feb 27, 2007
Messages
13,123
Location
London
It's happening, people can abandon assuming we will revert to 433 for the first PL game.
 

shivab

New Member
Joined
Jul 28, 2013
Messages
1,084
i think people are getting ahead of themselves. the transfer window is open and we can still buy players that would help us to play in different ways and not just one way. LVG will have a favourite formation but that always be tweaked during the season.
 

Theonas

Full Member
Scout
Joined
Aug 2, 2013
Messages
4,917
Location
Stockholm, Sweden
Why are people calling this 4-4-2? It looks like it could easily be a 4-2-3-1 with Mata and Young tucking in and helping out defensively. A bit like Bayern with Robben and Ribéry the year they won the CL or did I miss something?
 

Rowem

gently, down the stream
Joined
Feb 27, 2007
Messages
13,123
Location
London
Why are people calling this 4-4-2? It looks like it could easily be a 4-2-3-1 with Mata and Young tucking in and helping out defensively. A bit like Bayern with Robben and Ribéry the year they won the CL or did I miss something?
Correct and virtually everyone is saying that but the mods are too lazy to change the thread title.
 

Crashoutcassius

Full Member
Joined
Oct 10, 2013
Messages
10,337
Location
playa del carmen
Why are people calling this 4-4-2? It looks like it could easily be a 4-2-3-1 with Mata and Young tucking in and helping out defensively. A bit like Bayern with Robben and Ribéry the year they won the CL or did I miss something?
It is more like a 4-4-1-1 alright but with depay in behind rooney ... bizarre that we would put depay there
 

Rozay

Master of Hindsight
Joined
Oct 22, 2012
Messages
27,530
Location
...
Why are people calling this 4-4-2? It looks like it could easily be a 4-2-3-1 with Mata and Young tucking in and helping out defensively. A bit like Bayern with Robben and Ribéry the year they won the CL or did I miss something?
They are calling it 442 because Depay isn't playing in midfield I presume.
 

Impulse

Full Member
Joined
Aug 3, 2013
Messages
934
First pre-season game I've watched so basing this on 45 minutes but it looks a lot like the 4-4-2 that Real played in 13/14 when Bale got injured. Two holding midfielders in Carrick and Schneiderlin/Alonso and Modric, two creative wide midfielders in Young and Mata/Isco and di Maria, and two forwards with one of them having a lot of freedom to drift Depay/Ronaldo. It would be a shame if we sold di Maria because I think he did very well in this formation. As for Depay, I assume he's not out wide because the wide midfielders in this formation are supposed to be more creative whereas he's a stronger goalscorer.
 

devilish

Juventus fan who used to support United
Joined
Sep 5, 2002
Messages
61,959
4-4-2 with schneiderlin-bastian/carrick in cm, hardworking wingers like pedro and young + 2 mobile forwards like rooney and depay upfront may work
 

charlenefan

Far less insightful than the other Charley
Joined
Aug 17, 2005
Messages
33,052
Can't help but think another change in formation shows LVG still doesn't have a clue that and a 4-4-2/4-2-3-1 whatever it is we've been playing in preseason doesn't bode well for Herrera :(
 

settembrini

Full Member
Joined
Jan 29, 2015
Messages
3,283
The team selections bother me a lot more than the formation. Blind at centre back, Depay in the middle, some of our best players like Herrera and Smalling being left out... similar mistakes to those he made last season.
 

rover

New Member
Joined
Aug 9, 2014
Messages
669
if anyone still can't see this was a complete 4231 for the 1st 60 mins pf the game vs barca then no one an help
 

Rowem

gently, down the stream
Joined
Feb 27, 2007
Messages
13,123
Location
London
Carrick, Schweinsteiger, Fellaini, Herrera, Schneiderlin + Blind, Pereira

Not logic would dictate a two man midfield with this many midfielders.
And for the attacking positions we have: Rooney, Hernandez, Wilson, Januzaj, Young, Depay, Lingard, Mata, Fellaini, Pereira and soon to be Pedro. Don't think we will line up with just 3 of those very often unless Herrera is played as a number 10 or even out wide.
 

RedStarUnited

Full Member
Joined
Mar 25, 2008
Messages
8,196
Why are people calling this 4-4-2? It looks like it could easily be a 4-2-3-1 with Mata and Young tucking in and helping out defensively. A bit like Bayern with Robben and Ribéry the year they won the CL or did I miss something?
For most people, if a players isnt a midfielder he is a striker. Look at the image below from the CL final in 2010. Bayern (Managed by LVG) lined up exactly how we have lined up this summer.



Its the same thing as this really.

 

Sam

New Member
Joined
Aug 1, 2007
Messages
31,585
---Carrick-----Morgan----

Mata----Herrera---Memphis

---------Rooney--------------

Now someone tell me that isn't a more balanced, and better, lineup then what we're seeing at the moment?
 

Theon

Lord of the Iron Islands
Joined
Oct 14, 2011
Messages
13,292
For most people, if a players isnt a midfielder he is a striker. Look at the image below from the CL final in 2010. Bayern (Managed by LVG) lined up exactly how we have lined up this summer.
You're right of course.

However I don't think that changes the point a lot of people are making in the thread, which seems to be that we should be playing a 4-3-3 instead of a 4-4-2 or a 4-2-3-1.

So for instance, a midfield of Carrick or Schweinsteiger/Schneiderlin/Herrera behind three forwards up top.
 

Crashoutcassius

Full Member
Joined
Oct 10, 2013
Messages
10,337
Location
playa del carmen
We definitely didn't buy two midfielders to play 2 man midfield. I would agree that Schneiderlin and Herrera would do a job as b2b, but Schweisteiger and Carrick definitely not.

This thread is getting too much attention, we won't play that way.
you have to admit that it really looks like we will play that way when we are preparing for it in all the games 2 weeks before the campaign starts?
 

Escobar

Shameless Musketeer
Joined
Jun 8, 2004
Messages
30,401
Location
La-La-Land
---Carrick-----Morgan----

Mata----Herrera---Memphis

---------Rooney--------------

Now someone tell me that isn't a more balanced, and better, lineup then what we're seeing at the moment?
It's actually the best we can do I think. Herrera can drop back if needed and bring the ball forward, go right if needed and play with Mata while Memphis and Mata can drift inside if the fullback overlaps them. Question mark here is Rooney though, I'm not convinced he can carry us upfront
 

Deleted member 78215

Guest
---Carrick-----Morgan----

Mata----Herrera---Memphis

---------Rooney--------------

Now someone tell me that isn't a more balanced, and better, lineup then what we're seeing at the moment?
Bingo was his name-o.

It's gotta be that, surely?
 

Sam

New Member
Joined
Aug 1, 2007
Messages
31,585
It's actually the best we can do I think. Herrera can drop back if needed and bring the ball forward, go right if needed and play with Mata while Memphis and Mata can drift inside if the fullback overlaps them. Question mark here is Rooney though, I'm not convinced he can carry us upfront
I'd probably agree with all of that.

Bingo was his name-o.

It's gotta be that, surely?
Apparently not.
 

kps88

Full Member
Joined
Feb 12, 2008
Messages
22,520
I think part of it might be he doesn't feel we need the extra man in midfield anymore now that we've got the likes of Morgan and Bastian.
 

Crashoutcassius

Full Member
Joined
Oct 10, 2013
Messages
10,337
Location
playa del carmen
It's actually the best we can do I think. Herrera can drop back if needed and bring the ball forward, go right if needed and play with Mata while Memphis and Mata can drift inside if the fullback overlaps them. Question mark here is Rooney though, I'm not convinced he can carry us upfront
I mean surely depay is more of a question mark than rooney given how unproven he is? I don't get why Depay is a lock to be a success and first choice LW without any further thought
 

Chaky_Best

Supports 'a joke of a club'.
Joined
Nov 26, 2013
Messages
3,025
Location
Vegeta's Planet
Why playing in a 4-4-1-1 when most of our players are better in another tactic? We cried for the 4-4-2 when we were sh** in 3-5-2 last year, but when you have such a strong midfield, why don't playing on our strength

Carrick à Better as a lone 6

Schneiderlin à Comfortable in a 2 man midfield, and also in a 3 man midfield being the dynamic one (8)

Schweinsteiger à Good enough to play in a midfield two, but not next to Carrick. Would be great next to Schneiderlin. I can also see him as Carrick’s replacement

Herrera à Proved that he was our better player last year in a 8 position, but he was terrific playing at 10 before

Fellaini à He’s far better in a 3 man midfield. At Everton or last year he proved he was very good behind the striker, not mobile enough to play in a 4-4-2

----------------------------------------Carrick/Schweini------------------------------------
----------------Schneiderlin/Fellaini-------------------------Herrera/Mata----------------
???????----------------------------------Rooney-------------------------------------Depay
 

JPRouve

can't stop thinking about balls - NOT deflategate
Scout
Joined
Jan 31, 2014
Messages
66,756
Location
France
---Carrick-----Morgan----

Mata----Herrera---Memphis

---------Rooney--------------

Now someone tell me that isn't a more balanced, and better, lineup then what we're seeing at the moment?
I thought that it was obvious, but LVG disagrees.
 

TheRedDevil'sAdvocate

Full Member
Joined
Dec 7, 2013
Messages
3,681
Location
The rainbow's end
Why playing in a 4-4-1-1 when most of our players are better in another tactic? We cried for the 4-4-2 when we were sh** in 3-5-2 last year, but when you have such a strong midfield, why don't playing on our strength

Carrick à Better as a lone 6

Schneiderlin à Comfortable in a 2 man midfield, and also in a 3 man midfield being the dynamic one (8)

Schweinsteiger à Good enough to play in a midfield two, but not next to Carrick. Would be great next to Schneiderlin. I can also see him as Carrick’s replacement

Herrera à Proved that he was our better player last year in a 8 position, but he was terrific playing at 10 before

Fellaini à He’s far better in a 3 man midfield. At Everton or last year he proved he was very good behind the striker, not mobile enough to play in a 4-4-2

----------------------------------------Carrick/Schweini------------------------------------
----------------Schneiderlin/Fellaini-------------------------Herrera/Mata----------------
???????----------------------------------Rooney-------------------------------------Depay
It's been bothering me too. The only thing i could think of is that he doesn't believe there will be a significant change in terms of speeding up our build up play and creating more chances. In other words, he wasn't completely satisfied with the quality in the first team, so he decided to change the tactics a bit in order to have two or more options in each position. By doing that, he believes that the team will be able to get through a major injury crisis smoothly and not be left far behind in the title race. After all, he stated in his last interview that our bad start last season, when we faced an unbelievable injury crisis, was the main reason we never got a shot at the title.

As for the midfield he probably believes that Carrick and Schweini can only play as holding midfielders. He basically agrees with your opinion that Bastian can't play the #8 role next to Carrick. We can also presume that he thinks of Schneiderlin as a clear defensive midfielder but not as a ball carrier or a deep lying play-maker. We learned from last season that he doesn't trust Fellaini's abilities on the ball either and that he sees Mata as player who must get on the ball in the final third and not participate in the midfield battle (he played as a #10 only in the 3-5-2 and the diamond). So, in his eyes, the only proper ball carrier in the team, the player with the ability to connect the lines, is still Herrera.

Which means that we'll rely on the wings to get the ball forward a lot, like we did last season (the reason Young and Valencia gained a place in the starting xi). So, he may have decided to use a player close to Rooney in order to have more numbers in the box and stretch defenses instead of a third man in the midfield. I believe the interest in Pedro is also a move towards that direction.

His midfield partnerships are quite interesting too. Carrick, a holding midfielder, alongside a beast like defensive midfielder (Schneiderlin), so that we can make the most of Carrick's passing range and vision. And Schweinsteiger, who is more mobile and adventurous than Carrick, alongside Herrera who likes to move in more advanced positions and search for final passes on the edge of the box.

I'm not saying that i agree with his current choices, i'm just trying to understand the logic behing his tactical changes.
 

Borys

Statistics Wizard
Joined
May 10, 2013
Messages
9,201
Location
Bielsko Biala, Poland
you have to admit that it really looks like we will play that way when we are preparing for it in all the games 2 weeks before the campaign starts?
It does, unfortunately. But I still think he’s only doing that to show Memphis striker’s perspective. It doesn’t make much sense to play him centrally and Mata on the right. Clutching at straws…
 

Pexbo

Winner of the 'I'm not reading that' medal.
Joined
Jun 2, 2009
Messages
69,077
Location
Brizzle
Supports
Big Days
Can someone define for me what a formation actually is?

When exactly are those players in the position suggested by said formation?