A serious look at Mauricio Pochettino

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

@Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber : First of all you kept addressing as some Spurs supporter which I am not.
I dislike spurs and am a United supporter.

Thats your fault alone. You dont talk like one.....But good thar is cleared up

Secondly, you made some apples to oranges arguments which don't make any sense.

Oh really....

Mourinho going to Madrid from Inter isn't the same as Poch going to United if he wins with Totenham.

Huh?
How is it not the same? Inter compared to Real are like Spurs compare Manchester United. Plus Pochetino's situation is similar to what Mourinho's was if he were to win a league title. Yet Mourinho walked away from the history, he had made at Inter of finally making them European champions again and STILL went to Real Madrid

If Poch wins the league with Totenham no damn way he joins United the next season. Simple as that

Bullshit. You do not know what he would or wouldnt do if he won the league with Spurs. No one but him does. He could win it and the next day leave for ANY bigger club. Be it England or in Europe.

. If you want to argue that you are just deluding yourself.

Says the man deluding himself that he knows for certain what Pochetino would do in the future in case he won the league this season.

This whole "what's he won thing" is a very dumb argument especially when it's used on its own as some sort of fail/pass test.

Rather what is truly dumb is you repeatedly insisting on caricaturing that argument as merely 'winning a trophy'. Its as bad as those who try to write off a CR7 and LM10 not winning the world cup yet they are greats by pointing out 'a Grosso also has a world cup winners medal'.

Are you telling me a manager who has clearly elevated now 3 teams: Espanyol, Southampton and Totenham who has won nothing with THESE TEAMS (again look at these teams AGAIN) is a no just because he hasn't won anything?

Elevated them to what? We are talking about him walking into the kind of job in which nothing but winning and winning well is the bare minimum requirement. He has not done anything of the sort at ANY job he has had this far.

There are plenty of reasons not to prefer Poch or prefer Ole over him but the fact that Poch hasn't won a trophy with Totenham is a stupid idea to dismiss him. Like I said, should we go for Ranieri then? Recent winner and all?

And like I said earlier. Citing a Ranieri or a Di Matteo shows you fundementally misunderstand what the winner argument is about. So its pointless discussing it with you any longer till you do.

 

[Velvet Revolver]

Rival: "a person or thing competing with another for the same objective or for superiority in the same field of activity."

Yes, Manchester United and Spurs DO have the same objectives as clubs. Do you imagine that Pochettino and Spurs won't do their best to win the CL this season if they possibly can? Do you imagine that Pochettino and Spurs won't do their best to win the league this season if they possibly can?

Quit this pretentious nonsense, as if United inhabit some separate, lofty universe. In the real world you're all but out of the CL, and down there in the mud scrapping with Arsenal and Chelsea for a top 4 finish.

This is delusion at its finest. So this logic can be applied to any team in the league. If they could they would all want to win the league CL world cup everything. But they cannot and have not so they should not be compared!

 

[GlastonSpur]

This is delusion at its finest. So this logic can be applied to any team in the league. If they could they would all want to win the league CL world cup everything. But they cannot and have not so they should not be compared!

No. How many other teams are playing in the CL this season? How many other teams have any chance of winning the league title this season?

 

[Scroto Baggins]

I would seriously look at spurs recruitment rather than getting Poch. United's problems since Fergie has been down to poor investments and I can't imagine Poch alone is going to make us competitive. For the money we have spent we should be ahead of Spurs, and the fact that they look like they are making the next round of the Champions League further proves that we are badly mismanaged at the top.

Our recruitment has to be a little more on the finished product side. Spurs buy young players on the cheap that might grow their game into the finished article(Eriksen, Modric, Bale). We are not allowed this luxury, it is expected of United to be competing for the league, cups and CL. Not just securing a top four finish and making a CL run. And for that you need the finished article, you can get away with a youth player here and there if they are exceptional, like the next Henry(Martial).

This thread is filled with swings and round-a-bouts, Poch wins a game, 'hes great, the next United manager, nothing short of a miracle worker with the budget he has'. Poch loses a game it's 'we should keep Ole, Poch flatters to deceive, Poch has no winning pedigree and simply not good enough for United.'

 

[GlastonSpur]

Our recruitment has to be a little more on the finished product side. Spurs buy young players on the cheap that might grow their game into the finished article(Eriksen, Modric, Bale). We are not allowed this luxury, it is expected of United to be competing for the league, cups and CL. Not just securing a top four finish and making a CL run. And for that you need the finished article, you can get away with a youth player here and there if they are exceptional, like the next Henry(Martial).

This thread is filled with swings and round-a-bouts, Poch wins a game, 'hes great, the next United manager, nothing short of a miracle worker with the budget he has'. Poch loses a game it's 'we should keep Ole, Poch flatters to deceive, Poch has no winning pedigree and simply not good enough for United.'

You are allowed this luxury, it's simply that the club chooses largely not to exercise it and instead pursues expensive, attempted quick fixes in the mistaken belief that this will fast-track them back to where the club once was. Rebuilding a dynasty is a step-by-step process.

Otherwise, by now you could have had Alli, Eriksen, Son, Alderweireld, Bale, Modric etc in your squad, because you could have certainly outbid Spurs for them.

 

[Velvet Revolver]

No. How many other teams are playing in the CL this season? How many other teams have any chance of winning the league title this season?

Am not talking about one season. If that was the case then Leicester City >> Spurs. I agree spurs are a good team and arguable in the top 6 in England. But placing spurs and united in the same category is not right. You may be a die hard fan but you cant twist facts

 

[Adisa]

Thread has gone pear shaped in the last few pages.
Why did Glaston disappear over the last few weeks?

 

[Adisa]

Spurs' recruitment is overrated. Their biggest asset is by far the quality of their coach. No other manager would be in a title race with a midfield of Sissoko and Winks.

 

[C'est Moi Cantona]

Spurs' recruitment is overrated. Their biggest asset is by far the quality of their coach. No other manager would be in a title race with a midfield of Sissoko and Winks.

His ability to find a solution and get the best from what he's got is so impressive, and that must appeal to the Glazers, as he'll make sure there's nothing more to be squeezed from what we've already got, or a better option in the youth team, before he goes asking for big transfers, and he'll weed out the weak links very quickly.

Of course this only if his ability transfers to us, which we have struggled so much with recently.

 

[Thisistheone]

I would seriously look at spurs recruitment rather than getting Poch. United's problems since Fergie has been down to poor investments and I can't imagine Poch alone is going to make us competitive. For the money we have spent we should be ahead of Spurs, and the fact that they look like they are making the next round of the Champions League further proves that we are badly mismanaged at the top.

But Poch clearly improves players. The hope is that with a DoF in place instead of Woodward being the main man, then we will invest better and with a manager like Poch (or Ole) we will improve players when they join instead of them regressing. Whilst also playing attacking football.

 

[Scroto Baggins]

Spurs' recruitment is overrated. Their biggest asset is by far the quality of their coach. No other manager would be in a title race with a midfield of Sissoko and Winks.

This, I cant believe Spurs are third with this midfield and Dier as the other midfield player in the mix. How are they not getting overrun and played off the park in midfield week in, week out?

 

[Wumminator]

Is there anyone who doubts that he is a fantastic manager?

He'd be brilliant here. So would Ole.

Instead of picking a side and fighting it out, I'll just be happy with either outcome

 

[crossy1686]

Is there anyone who doubts that he is a fantastic manager?

He'd be brilliant here. So would Ole.

Instead of picking a side and fighting it out, I'll just be happy with either outcome

That's the thing people are debating, there's no evidence to suggest he would be brilliant at United when we've had three previous managers who also 'would have been brilliant here' on paper but actually haven't been able to mould the club to their will or have struggled with the size of the club and expectation.

Whereas Solskjaer, a Manchester United product, has taken to the job like a duck to water.

No one is disputing Pochettino's managerial ability but better managers have failed at big teams before now.

 

[thegregster]

Is there anyone who doubts that he is a fantastic manager?

He'd be brilliant here. So would Ole.

Instead of picking a side and fighting it out, I'll just be happy with either outcome

How will he do with a bigger budget? Same goes for Ole to be fair.

That's my big doubt about both.

Still both are the top two candidates in my book.

 

[LilyWhiteSpur]

This, I cant believe Spurs are third with this midfield and Dier as the other midfield player in the mix. How are they not getting overrun and played off the park in midfield week in, week out?

One thing you won’t get is overrun with Moussa and Dier in Midfield.

 

[Scroto Baggins]

One thing you won’t get is overrun with Moussa and Dier in Midfield.

The limited times Ive seen Spurs play it's Winks with either Dier or Sissoko, dont think ive seen Winks benched and just Sissoko, Dier midfield.

That sounds like a midfield I would want for a 0-0 draw. Dier is a limited footballer who offers little going forward and is a liability as the pivot against a team that likes to press high. Sure he is a great destroyer and if you are under siege he is good to have. Sissoko is an amazing athlete, and has had a good season, last season he could barely collect a pass. This season he has been in good form, neither of them can pick a pass from deep however.

 

[Sauldogba]

I would seriously look at spurs recruitment rather than getting Poch. United's problems since Fergie has been down to poor investments and I can't imagine Poch alone is going to make us competitive. For the money we have spent we should be ahead of Spurs, and the fact that they look like they are making the next round of the Champions League further proves that we are badly mismanaged at the top.

Spurs recruitment has won them the square root of feck all

 

[GlastonSpur]

Spurs recruitment has won them the square root of feck all

True. But it's seen us become an established top 4 club and now very likely to reach (at least) the CL QFs ... all in the face of 5 other clubs that have spent vastly more than us on both player transfers and wages.

And the money saved through astute signings has thus been available to help to fund our new training centre and new stadium complex.

All in all, a very good set of outcomes for our player recruitment policies and management.

 

[GlastonSpur]

This, I cant believe Spurs are third with this midfield and Dier as the other midfield player in the mix. How are they not getting overrun and played off the park in midfield week in, week out?

Because Winks, Dier and now even Sissoko are better than many oppo fans are willing to credit.

In a sense this is reflection of a wider tendency. For several seasons now there has been a consistent under-rating of Spurs on here, with many posters repeatedly predicting a finish outside the top 4. And when these predictions have all failed, this is often put down to "luck", or Spurs "over-achieving" or other teams "under-achieving".

It's part of obsession that many have with shiny, new and expensive players … and their corresponding puzzlement when a CM (for example) costing a grand total of £4m (in the case of Dier + Winks) is able to hold its own against CMs costing many, many times more.

 

[Wumminator]

That's the thing people are debating, there's no evidence to suggest he would be brilliant at United when we've had three previous managers who also 'would have been brilliant here' on paper but actually haven't been able to mould the club to their will or have struggled with the size of the club and expectation.

Whereas Solskjaer, a Manchester United product, has taken to the job like a duck to water.

No one is disputing Pochettino's managerial ability but better managers have failed at big teams before now.

There’s no evidence that anyone would do well here. So that can’t be held against him.

He’s done an insanely good job at Tottenham.

 

[Grande]

There’s no evidence that anyone would do well here. So that can’t be held against him.

He’s done an insanely good job at Tottenham.

I could do an equally good job at Spurs. There’s no evidence to the contrary

 

[GlastonSpur]

I could do an equally good job at Spurs. There’s no evidence to the contrary

Exhibit A: You don't have the required coaching badges.

 

[Grande]

Exhibit A: You don't have the required coaching badges.

Ah, but you can’t really prove that, can you?

 

[Catt]

No way Poch will leave Spurs for United. When he eventually splits, it will be for Real, Barca, Milan or something.

How so?

 

[LilyWhiteSpur]

The limited times Ive seen Spurs play it's Winks with either Dier or Sissoko, dont think ive seen Winks benched and just Sissoko, Dier midfield.

That sounds like a midfield I would want for a 0-0 draw. Dier is a limited footballer who offers little going forward and is a liability as the pivot against a team that likes to press high. Sure he is a great destroyer and if you are under siege he is good to have. Sissoko is an amazing athlete, and has had a good season, last season he could barely collect a pass. This season he has been in good form, neither of them can pick a pass from deep however.

I agree but they won’t get walked over.

 

[charlenefan]

Is it though? I mean you haven't even launched the semblance of a challenge since Fergie. It would be weird for your club/board to be setting the target of 'win the league' every season when it's clearly a pretty unrealistic one.

If Ole gets appointed, I imagine his target will be to finish top four first season, as I imagine this was the aim for LVG and Mourinho in their respective first seasons. Maybe the fans always want/aim for the league, but realistically I think the minimum expectation of the board will be to finish within the top four.

Like you said top 4 should be the absolute bare minimum for a Man Utd manager, in fact it should go without saying we finish in the top 4, the fact that top 4 finishes have become a question mark with us is just another damning indictment of how far we've fallen

As for expectations for managers who knows what's said to them and whether those conversations are even had given said person is about to become the manager of Man Utd (so the expectations are obvious) but Moyes was inheriting the champions and you certainly don't bring Mourinho in to do anything other than win you the league so...

 

[charlenefan]

As I've said, it fools no-one to pretend that United don't care about top 4 if they can't win the title. Top 4 means another shot at the CL and United want this as much as any other club.

Moreover, you need to be able to walk before you can run … but you'll stay in denial over the fact that United are no longer in a foot race race with the likes of Barca and RM.

Hang on so Man Utd shoud care about top 4 as it gives a shot at the UCL and then in the very next sentence you're saying you need to walk before you can run? Even someone as challenged as you can surely see the contradiction there?

Oh and keep throwing the insults about us not being in a foot race with Barca and Madrid if it makes you feel good about yourself but just know it's comments like that which is why you're despised here

 

[GlastonSpur]

Hang on so Man Utd shoud care about top 4 as it gives a shot at the UCL and then in the very next sentence you're saying you need to walk before you can run? Even someone as challenged as you can surely see the contradiction there?

Oh and keep throwing the insults about us not being in a foot race with Barca and Madrid if it makes you feel good about yourself but just know it's comments like that which is why you're despised here

There is no contradiction: If they can't win the league title then United obviously need to care about finishing in the top 4 (and thus at least get another shot at the CL) - which is walking before you can run (at the league title).

It's not an insult to say that you are not in a foot race with the likes of Barca and RM, it's simply a fair statement about where United currently is in comparison with those two clubs, who are clearly a step up in footballing terms.

 

[MikeKing]

Because Winks, Dier and now even Sissoko are better than many oppo fans are willing to credit.

In a sense this is reflection of a wider tendency. For several seasons now there has been a consistent under-rating of Spurs on here, with many posters repeatedly predicting a finish outside the top 4. And when these predictions have all failed, this is often put down to "luck", or Spurs "over-achieving" or other teams "under-achieving".

It's part of obsession that many have with shiny, new and expensive players … and their corresponding puzzlement when a CM (for example) costing a grand total of £4m (in the case of Dier + Winks) is able to hold its own against CMs costing many, many times more.

I agree with you. There is some imbalance there. Spurs have some really good players, which is why Pochettino's reputation has been equally overvalued in relation to the statement you made, where people have been undervaluing your players. They should be expected to win something, yet the manager doesn't seem to care if they don't. I don't think Winks and Sissoko want to move anywhere just because they wont win trophies, because the truth is they enjoy just being at the club and that is what matters. The same goes for Pochettino. He'll have to work with these cheap but admittedly great players and they will do just fine as they have been.

 

[charlenefan]

There is no contradiction: If they can't win the league title then United obviously need to care about finishing in the top 4 (and thus at least get another shot at the CL) - which is walking before you can run (at the league title).

It's not an insult to say that you are not in a foot race with the likes of Barca and RM, it's simply a fair statement about where United currently is in comparison with those two clubs, who are clearly a step up in footballing terms.

FFS a shot at the CL when you can't win your own domestic league? And you're talking about walking before you can run

And yes you do mean to insult with your childish jabs, you may think you're clever (even now with your denials) but everyone knows your intentions and it certainly isn't making fair statements (ironically enough what everyone could guarantee about you is that you don't make fair statements)

 

[spud u like]

Hang on so Man Utd shoud care about top 4 as it gives a shot at the UCL and then in the very next sentence you're saying you need to walk before you can run? Even someone as challenged as you can surely see the contradiction there?

Oh and keep throwing the insults about us not being in a foot race with Barca and Madrid if it makes you feel good about yourself but just know it's comments like that which is why you're despised here

I don't see what Glaston has said wrong here. Man Utd are not on the same level as Barcelona, Real Madrid and quite a few other clubs around Europe.

You may be the same or bigger in club size, but on the pitch you're behind. Maybe the truth hurts?

 

[GlastonSpur]

FFS a shot at the CL when you can't win your own domestic league? And you're talking about walking before you can run

And yes you do mean to insult with your childish jabs, you may think you're clever (even now with your denials) but everyone knows your intentions and it certainly isn't making fair statements (ironically enough what everyone could guarantee about you is that you don't make fair statements)

A top 4 finish (and thus CL football the next season) when you can't the league is walking before you can run. I don't see why you absurdly wish to deny it, because it's not rocket science.

And as I've said, your pretence that United don't care about a top 4 finish if you can't win the league is ridiculous.

 

[Aloysius's Back 3]

Spurs are down to Lewy. Pochettino is a good manager & has improved spurs but Lewy - He is fantastic. Wish we could have the guy at United

 

[Scroto Baggins]

I agree with you. There is some imbalance there. Spurs have some really good players, which is why Pochettino's reputation has been equally overvalued in relation to the statement you made, where people have been undervaluing your players. They should be expected to win something, yet the manager doesn't seem to care if they don't. I don't think Winks and Sissoko want to move anywhere just because they wont win trophies, because the truth is they enjoy just being at the club and that is what matters. The same goes for Pochettino. He'll have to work with these cheap but admittedly great players and they will do just fine as they have been.

I think Winks given time to grow his game will be good, I can imagine him growing into a Joao Moutinho type. He certainly didnt look out of place in the RM vs Spurs game I watched, he was probably pick of the midfielders tbf. He is a step above Mason and Carroll and whoever else Spurs have had as home grown players in midfield.

Im not really convinced by any of the other midfielders Spurs have, Wanyama has Ledley King's knees, Dier has stalled, should probably have remained a CB, doesnt bring anything of substance going forward. They sold Capoue who I feel is a better DM than Dier.

Sissoko is an enigma.

 

[MikeKing]

I think Winks given time to grow his game will be good, I can imagine him growing into a Joao Moutinho type. He certainly didnt look out of place in the RM vs Spurs game I watched, he was probably pick of the midfielders tbf. He is a step above Mason and Carroll and whoever else Spurs have had as home grown players in midfield.

Im not really convinced by any of the other midfielders Spurs have, Wanyama has Ledley King's knees, Dier has stalled, should probably have remained a CB, doesnt bring anything of substance going forward. They sold Capoue who I feel is a better DM than Dier.

Sissoko is an enigma.

Wanyama I think was a very good player for them for a while, and he had a lot going for him until his injuries ruined it. Dier has stalled, but is that not on Pochettino? He get credit for all the players developing there but when they stall that is not his fault? Capoue is good and Bentaleb too, probably even better. They should have got a lot more out of those I feel. Dembele another late developer who gave them a couple of amazing seasons. Son was a big player in my eyes. Always impressed with numbers in the Bundesliga and some sick goals too. I wanted us to buy him when Kagawa wasn't working out. Lloris is just a consistent top-level goalkeeper and has been for ages, maybe he never reached up to his early hype but you can't take anything away from him. Kane might become Englands most scoring striker of all time. Alli had a couple of fantastic seasons before he regressed a bit. Spurs has had a lot of fantastic players recent years, but have failed to take the step up considering the potential they had with all the talent passing through the club, they have not been able to get everyone to work at the same time.

Look at Leicester winning the league. They had all their best players playing to the best of their abilities all at the same time. Mahrez and Vardy is two great players capable of doing the work, just as Spurs has Kane, Alli, Eriksen, Son, Lucas Moura. In order to win the league you have to make them all perform at the top of their abilities at the same time, not a few seasons a part, but at the same time. Very hard thing to do as a manager. Pochettino making use of Sissoko when others are injured is good, but why couldn't he also contribute at the same level when needed when their best is at their best? When their fringe players get a run in the team they do well, but I don't think they get the same attention to develop when supposedly better players are prioritised. Not taking full advantage of all their potential at the right moments hurts their chances of winning anything. And Pochettino brushes it under the carpet. Has to be a bit worrying, or it would be for me if I supported Spurs.

 

[renatosanches85]

And what was your thinking before Tuesday?

The same. And the same after Monday.

I know I’ll be shot down and people will say you need someone with a track record, i.e. a Monchi (look how that’s worked out), but I don’t agree. I think you need someone who has the clubs DNA, understands how the club must play and scouts and buys players to fit this style. If Poch doesn’t work out a new manager comes in but must buy-in to the philosophy of the club. We shouldn’t be held to ransom by any managers style, and I think Ole would be perfect as DoF promoting these values throughout the club.

My concern about Ole taking the managers job would be one bad season and we are back to square one. He gets sacked and we go for the ‘proven’ manager, like Mourinho or van Gaal.

 

[Sandikan]

The same. And the same after Monday.

I know I’ll be shot down and people will say you need someone with a track record, i.e. a Monchi (look how that’s worked out), but I don’t agree. I think you need someone who has the clubs DNA, understands how the club must play and scouts and buys players to fit this style. If Poch doesn’t work out a new manager comes in but must buy-in to the philosophy of the club. We shouldn’t be held to ransom by any managers style, and I think Ole would be perfect as DoF promoting these values throughout the club.

My concern about Ole taking the managers job would be one bad season and we are back to square one. He gets sacked and we go for the ‘proven’ manager, like Mourinho or van Gaal.

A 6month trial is perfect though. As it makes him as much a "known" as you can realistically have.
Poch or anyone come in with no guarantee at all. Solskjaer isn't that guarantee but it's less of a risk having seen how he'd work.

It's irony that with the strengths he has you then don't think he's the man for manager.

I don't think he'd work as the dof as its a totally different skillset.

 

[ReddBalls]

No one was clamouring for these players when Spurs signed them. Evidently no one thought so highly of them at the time.

That's a blatant lie. Eriksen was always one of the biggest talents in Europe.
https://www.theguardian.com/football/2012/dec/19/christian-eriksen-ajax

 

[GlastonSpur]

That's a blatant lie. Eriksen was always one of the biggest talents in Europe.
https://www.theguardian.com/football/2012/dec/19/christian-eriksen-ajax

If he was so sought after then how come Spurs were able to sign him for just £12m?

 

[Paxi]

Wish Glaston just stayed in India, to be honest.