Dortmund are massively overrated in here
A serious look at Mauricio Pochettino
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) was joined by comedian Ali Woods to look back at the best and worst moments of a rollercoaster season with the annual United Hour Awards.
Has Ten Hag been sacked yet? We're not sure and we hope not, but it's looking more likely as the days pass.
Who should replace him and why is it taking so long to make a decision?
I haven't been following the thread extensively but please dont tell me Spurs fans are trying to compare their victory against Dortmund with our defeat to PSG?
Lowkey a good few bitter trolls in this thread.
If you mean are people trying to say Dortmund are as good as PSG then no, nobody is doing that.
I do like how a team leading a top league by 5 points (and leading it for most of the season) are now some shitehawks though.
Name them.
Spurs fans trying to shame Ole in this thread for losing to PSG of all teams, when Ole was forced to use Mata and Sanchez
What about when Spurs lost 2-0 to Crystal Palace
What about when Spurs lost 2-0 to Crystal Palace
Merely asserting something is crap without proof is very dumb.
Huh? What an actual load of crap. Elite clubs are elite because they already have that potential. Hence they demand every manager to actualise it every season. They dont have to develop it. They are not Spurs
You are verugood at being a fundamentally unserious person at times. United has both the money and the pulling power to easily get into position of being capable of winning the league and UCL in just the next 6 months. Provided they recruit the right manager.
They are not Spurs. A club at which even money from your new stadium when it opens wont get you there that quick.
You are the one with serious delusions mate. The type that makes you imagine elite clubs suddenly become small due to a period of turmoil that halts their winning. Its like attempting to paint Spurs as the same as a Liverpool, because it hasnt lifted a league title since 1990.
Great. Because United doesn't meed him either regardless......
Yawn
It should be blatantly obvious United dont give a rats behind where a Spurs finish in the league. A Mourinho was counted as not good enough for finishing miles behind Man City in second. If they cared about Spurs. He'd still be in the job foe he'd have bee supported in the summer window for 'trumping spurs'.....
a) Nobody is trying to 'shame' Ole, stop exaggerating/making things up. People have said it's a bad result but that he's still clearly done a fantastic job.Spurs fans trying to shame Ole in this thread for losing to PSG of all teams, when Ole was forced to use Mata and Sanchez
What about when Spurs lost 2-0 to Crystal Palace
b) Being 'forced' to use Mata and Sanchez (With Lukaku also available) is hardly the same as having to use Nkoudou, Skipp and Llorente is it? I get that these players are underperforming but it seems there is an attempt to act like the subs Ole has are pub players.
c) Our result to Crystal Palace was shit. Nobody was happy and whilst the sheer number of injuries provided context, it still wasn't acceptable to be 2-0 down in the first half and to have defended like we did.
It seems like you're intent on making it Spurs fans vs United and I don't understand why. I get Glaston might aim to wind up United fans sometimes, but nobody else is here trying to rub salt in wounds, just trying to have a genuine discussion about Ole & Poch.
And why should you? We're not rival clubs. I can't say I really care where United finish either, certainly I'd prefer you get fourth over Chelsea or Arsenal.
I guess it's nice in a petty way to be finishing ahead of a club we were nowhere near for so long, but let's be fair, you aren't that same club right now.
If we lose to Chelsea in the FA cup it'll be a disaster
Spurs are a small club with no history so they can lose to Crystal Palace in the FA cup and their fans won't say anything and Poch will pretend his club is amazing
This is why Spurs fans shouldn't be on here criticizing Ole and telling us how to run our club
Spurs are a small club with no history so they can lose to Crystal Palace in the FA cup and their fans won't say anything and Poch will pretend his club is amazing
This is why Spurs fans shouldn't be on here criticizing Ole and telling us how to run our club
Teach that to Glaston. He thinks Spurs are suddenly our rivals
Except we weren't, and choosing to do so can probably be seen as an error by Ole.
I, along with many fans, were seriously worried seeing Mata and Sanchez coming on so close together. It would have made more sense in my view to push Rashford to a wide position - he was getting no joy against Thiago anyway - and put Dalot on the other side to cover Mbappe/Di Maria. Lukaku or Sanchez could have then gone up top.
I think Poch would have been more likely to have done something like this.
Poch is trying to sign James Maddison for £50 million
Maddison used to play in the Scottish Pub League and didn't look out of place. He was a substitute in a lot of games.
If Marcus Rashford was in the Pub League he'd look like Messi whereas Maddison's only highlight is scoring a free-kick.
He's unproven in the transfer market, Eriksen, Vertonghen etc. We're all club signings made before he was at the club. He could've moved to Man Utd or City and not started with as much quality as he got for free at Spurs.
Ps Squishy get a life we've got a 5 post limit and you sit with infinite posts talking about Spurs even when you get proven wrong.
I don't clog up Barca or Spurs forums boasting about Ole so why are you clogging up a man Utd forum boasting about Poch
Maddison used to play in the Scottish Pub League and didn't look out of place. He was a substitute in a lot of games.
If Marcus Rashford was in the Pub League he'd look like Messi whereas Maddison's only highlight is scoring a free-kick.
He's unproven in the transfer market, Eriksen, Vertonghen etc. We're all club signings made before he was at the club. He could've moved to Man Utd or City and not started with as much quality as he got for free at Spurs.
Ps Squishy get a life we've got a 5 post limit and you sit with infinite posts talking about Spurs even when you get proven wrong.
I don't clog up Barca or Spurs forums boasting about Ole so why are you clogging up a man Utd forum boasting about Poch
Jesus wept we spent almost 3 times as much on Fellaini when Eriksen was available.... Depressing
Even when I prove squishy wrong he comes back with his infinite posts.
Face it squishy I said above why your club has no history and why it's a disaster if Utd lose to Chelsea but fine if Spurs lose to Crystal Palace
That's why you shouldn't be on here criticizing anything to do with United because your club is a joke with no history where failure is acceptable but failure isn't acceptable here
Btw GlastonSpur Eriksen cost 11 million before Poch was even at Spurs and you use this to say Poch elevated Eriksen to a 100 million player, you're delusional.
Maddison is rubbish compared to Eriksen and Poch is chasing him for 50 million
Face it squishy I said above why your club has no history and why it's a disaster if Utd lose to Chelsea but fine if Spurs lose to Crystal Palace
That's why you shouldn't be on here criticizing anything to do with United because your club is a joke with no history where failure is acceptable but failure isn't acceptable here
Btw GlastonSpur Eriksen cost 11 million before Poch was even at Spurs and you use this to say Poch elevated Eriksen to a 100 million player, you're delusional.
Maddison is rubbish compared to Eriksen and Poch is chasing him for 50 million
Come on lad, ridiculous to suggest that.
I think Poch has done an very good job and if we are looking for managers in the PL then he is definitely the top candidate. You have Eddie Howe who have spent a lot of money relative to their income and has not a lot to show for it really, yet they are solid in the league so I think he has done a similar job to what Poch has done, in terms of establishing consistency and creating a playing style. However there is no doubt Poch has been more impressive, but I'm not sure how much of that is due to having players of much higher quality. Poch has Kane who is probably the best striker in the league and a very good goalkeeper in Lloris. They are definitely top 4 material. The fact they have maintained the same manager for such a long period has definitely helped them in certain areas this season compared to United, Arsenal, Chelsea who all have struggled with transitioning.
I have big faith in Poch if he was to come here and have no doubts he can get a lot out of our players like Pogba, Martial, Herrera, Matic etc. He also would probably get a lot out of even better players like he has done with Kane. However I don't believe in magic. United has to have a better model of how to move as a club, or it wont matter even for Poch. Not at all. I know some expect him to come in and turn 10m players into 100m players, but you have to have the quality. If Kane was not Kane but another young player without the same potential then it goes without saying that Poch wouldn't turn him into a 100m player. Kane did that. Those who think he will come in to United and fix everything because we spend more money lives in a dream world and it is that simple.
The one thing that really doesn't sit right with me and worries me his his comments about trophies. But he is just saying those things to deflect and keep a tight knit team right? To keep the team going without pressure etc. He doesn't really believe that trophies don't matter and only feeds the ego? I mean if that is true then he is just not the right fit for us, at all. I think he just says that stuff because that is how it is at Spurs and since he is not being backed financially to make the step up, he just accepts and enforces that culture and makes the best of it for his own gain, right? I would be shocked otherwise, and certainly wouldn't have him anywhere near our club.
I have big faith in Poch if he was to come here and have no doubts he can get a lot out of our players like Pogba, Martial, Herrera, Matic etc. He also would probably get a lot out of even better players like he has done with Kane. However I don't believe in magic. United has to have a better model of how to move as a club, or it wont matter even for Poch. Not at all. I know some expect him to come in and turn 10m players into 100m players, but you have to have the quality. If Kane was not Kane but another young player without the same potential then it goes without saying that Poch wouldn't turn him into a 100m player. Kane did that. Those who think he will come in to United and fix everything because we spend more money lives in a dream world and it is that simple.
The one thing that really doesn't sit right with me and worries me his his comments about trophies. But he is just saying those things to deflect and keep a tight knit team right? To keep the team going without pressure etc. He doesn't really believe that trophies don't matter and only feeds the ego? I mean if that is true then he is just not the right fit for us, at all. I think he just says that stuff because that is how it is at Spurs and since he is not being backed financially to make the step up, he just accepts and enforces that culture and makes the best of it for his own gain, right? I would be shocked otherwise, and certainly wouldn't have him anywhere near our club.
Having seen a lot of Llorente in recent weeks I would say the comparisons between him, Mata and Sanchez are closer than you think. No idea about the other two you mentioned though
I don't know if there's a huge rebuild needed at United, but you're certainly overrating a good few of our players.
For example, we have potentially world class attackers in Martial, Rashford? And Pogba if you count him as more an attacker than a midfielder.
Our midfield is pretty balanced, but also seems far too easy to play through given Pogba's lackadaisical defending and with Matic perhaps not being the player he once was.
As for our defence, they probably all would sell for a nice price, and if we had the same expectations as other teams in the league they'd be spot on. United have different expectations though, from our own fans as well as opposition fans such as yourself.
Mata and Sanchez are perhaps similar to Matic in that their best days are behind them.
Sanchez inparticular isn't good enough to be an option at United I don't think, as much as I'd have loved a Sanchez in his prime here, we just didn't get it.
Overall yeah we have a really talented squad, I think we're perhaps in a similar situation as yourselves in which our first 11 is full of talent, but the bench features some aging or frustrating options; we're just a version that happens to have wasted a lot of money.
This side is good enough to beat most premier league teams most weeks, so I'd guess that if Ole was here from the start we'd be closer to first than we are now, but tbe champions league is a different beast, and coming up against Di Maria, Mbappe and the likes of Draxler etc was always going to expose the still very present issues with our squad.
The idea of the forums narrative changing after the loss is an amusing one to me, since most of us United fans struggle to come to the same conclusions so often, how can we even have a coherent narrative?
@Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber : First of all you kept addressing as some Spurs supporter which I am not. I dislike spurs and am a United supporter. Secondly, you made some apples to oranges arguments which don't make any sense. Mourinho going to Madrid from Inter isn't the same as Poch going to United if he wins with Totenham. If Poch wins the league with Totenham no damn way he joins United the next season. Simple as that. If you want to argue that you are just deluding yourself.
This whole "what's he won thing" is a very dumb argument especially when it's used on its own as some sort of fail/pass test. Are you telling me a manager who has clearly elevated now 3 teams: Espanyol, Southampton and Totenham who has won nothing with THESE TEAMS (again look at these teams AGAIN) is a no just because he hasn't won anything?
There are plenty of reasons not to prefer Poch or prefer Ole over him but the fact that Poch hasn't won a trophy with Totenham is a stupid idea to dismiss him. Like I said, should we go for Ranieri then? Recent winner and all?
This whole "what's he won thing" is a very dumb argument especially when it's used on its own as some sort of fail/pass test. Are you telling me a manager who has clearly elevated now 3 teams: Espanyol, Southampton and Totenham who has won nothing with THESE TEAMS (again look at these teams AGAIN) is a no just because he hasn't won anything?
There are plenty of reasons not to prefer Poch or prefer Ole over him but the fact that Poch hasn't won a trophy with Totenham is a stupid idea to dismiss him. Like I said, should we go for Ranieri then? Recent winner and all?
I also don't get why people think this is bad. What do you want him to do, go full on Gary Neville in the presser about spurs being spineless useless cnuts?
The PSG team you came up against was good, but nothing special or beyond PL quality. The likes of Draxler and Di Maria are good players, but you played and beat us at Wembley (albeit with a lot of fortune
) and we boast the likes of Eriksen, Kane, Son etc. With Cavani/Neymar added to the team, then you're looking at a proper beast, but otherwise I thought they were tidy in midfield, very resolute in defence but not particularly impressive going forward.In fairness, what they had was a quality defence and tactical gameplan, and I do think that's where Ole came a bit unstuck. The counter attack wasn't functioning (even before injuries) because PSG were exceptionally well organised and Tuchel had obviously done his homework, with a lot of credit also needing to go to Marquinhos/Silva who did a proper job on you. What PSG did best was shut Pogba out of the game, something we failed to do against you and paid the price with the world class ball to Rashford.
That's the way I see the game. I don't view it as PSG being a bridge too far for Ole/United in terms of the quality they have, I simply see it as Tuchel doing very well with the injuries he faced and setting up his side superbly, and Ole perhaps not expecting PSG to play the way they did. The injuries obviously didn't help, and whilst you can argue Ole should have reacted better to them, it's hard to be too critical because he had a very limited amount of time to change the way you wanted to play. Personally I do think shifting Rashford out wide and bringing in Lukaku was a better option than both Mata/Sanchez, but there's no guarantee it would have worked any better.
Anyway, this is in danger of becoming a thread about Ole .. which it isn't! Though it's rather predictable that it would end up as him vs Pochettino with United fans weighing the two options up.
I kind of agree, but honestly I think PSG are better than Tottenham. When we played you we had plenty of chances like you did, we weren't afforded that luxury against PSGThe PSG team you came up against was good, but nothing special or beyond PL quality. The likes of Draxler and Di Maria are good players, but you played and beat us at Wembley (albeit with a lot of fortune
In fairness, what they had was a quality defence and tactical gameplan, and I do think that's where Ole came a bit unstuck. The counter attack wasn't functioning (even before injuries) because PSG were exceptionally well organised and Tuchel had obviously done his homework, with a lot of credit also needing to go to Marquinhos/Silva who did a proper job on you. What PSG did best was shut Pogba out of the game, something we failed to do against you and paid the price with the world class ball to Rashford.
That's the way I see the game. I don't view it as PSG being a bridge too far for Ole/United in terms of the quality they have, I simply see it as Tuchel doing very well with the injuries he faced and setting up his side superbly, and Ole perhaps not expecting PSG to play the way they did. The injuries obviously didn't help, and whilst you can argue Ole should have reacted better to them, it's hard to be too critical because he had a very limited amount of time to change the way you wanted to play. Personally I do think shifting Rashford out wide and bringing in Lukaku was a better option than both Mata/Sanchez, but there's no guarantee it would have worked any better.
Anyway, this is in danger of becoming a thread about Ole .. which it isn't! Though it's rather predictable that it would end up as him vs Pochettino with United fans weighing the two options up.
Di Maria, Mbappe, Draxler isn't the best attack in the world don't get me wrong, but it's certainly enough to leave our leaky defence unstuck.
The way PSG set up was simply to choke us in possession whilst being rock solid in defence, once martial and Lingard came off we couldn't really get going and as much as Pogba was chased and marked, it was a big opportunity for him to step up which he failed to do.
As for this not being a thread about Ole, all threads should be about Ole, because he's great.
I do think the Poch-Ole comparisons are pointless though.
Poch has been at Tottenham for years and has done a good job by improving your side to what it is today
Ole has had about 12? Matches at United, God knows how he'd do with 2/3 years and plenty of opportunity to improve the squad.
I do hope we take a chance on him though, as I'd imagine you do too.
I kind of agree, but honestly I think PSG are better than Tottenham. When we played you we had plenty of chances like you did, we weren't afforded that luxury against PSG
Di Maria, Mbappe, Draxler isn't the best attack in the world don't get me wrong, but it's certainly enough to leave our leaky defence unstuck.
The way PSG set up was simply to choke us in possession whilst being rock solid in defence, once martial and Lingard came off we couldn't really get going and as much as Pogba was chased and marked, it was a big opportunity for him to step up which he failed to do.
As for this not being a thread about Ole, all threads should be about Ole, because he's great.
I do think the Poch-Ole comparisons are pointless though.
Poch has been at Tottenham for years and has done a good job by improving your side to what it is today
Ole has had about 12? Matches at United, God knows how he'd do with 2/3 years and plenty of opportunity to improve the squad.
I do hope we take a chance on him though, as I'd imagine you do too.
I don't think PSG without Cavani & Neymar are a better team than a full strength Spurs. I'm biased (obviously) but I really don't, I saw them against Napoli and Liverpool and I wasn't impressed in any of those games aside from one in Paris vs Liverpool, but even then they didn't blow me away. Against you I thought they were pragmatic and well drilled and Tuchel impressed me, but I didn't see a special side.
Against us I think in the first half we were very poor/tactically we got it wrong by not playing Sanchez to match up against the pace of Rashford, and also afforded Pogba too much space. The second half we blew you away in terms of keeping the ball and creating chances but simply couldn't find the net, but we paid for our mistakes in the first half and that's football. PSG and Tuchel put in what I would describe as a mature performance, they weren't exceptional or creating that many chances, but they did the basics very well and were tactically superb.
And yeah the Poch/Ole comparisons are weird because really, we haven't seen enough of Ole have we? We've seen him go on an excellent run but it's still such a short period of time. Really we won't be able to judge until he has at least a full season in the league with all the pressures that come with being the actual (as opposed to caretaker) manager of a side like United. I do like him though, he says the right things and for a manager at United to have the fans & squad on his side isn't something to be sniffed at. Tactically I think he will still have a lot to learn (just like Poch did and still does) but it's whether the club will be patient with him or not.
Yeah I don't think PSG are a special side, but with all due respect I don't see Spurs as a special side either. You're a really good side, which is why it was great for us to be able to beat you so early in Ole's time as manager.
PSG were pragmatic which is probably the main reason they won (along with the player who probably should've been off scoring the opening goal, but I think we'd have likely lost anyway)
Yeah I agree about Ole too, I think United are in a strange spot at the moment in the sense that we're nowhere near where we need to be, but also don't have an immediately obvious way of getting there.
What we do have though is a squad full of young talent that needs time to mature, just as you say perhaps our manager does too. If it were up to me, I'd give the job to Ole irregardless of what goes on for the rest of the season (Barring a weird meltdown in terms of results which won't happen) and let him and his experienced coaching staff build a great United side.
My worry is similar to yours in that the board might be too trigger happy if we aren't challenging right away next season. It's a worry I'd have if Poch was to join the club, since he doesn't strike me as the type that would want to come in, sign experienced, short term players and challenge right away; something that didn't work with Van Gaal or Mourinho anyways.
I don't think we can really know what Pochettino would do if given the United job, managers function differently under different circumstances. If he came to you I have no doubt he'd spend money and bring in the players he wants, no manager is different in this respect.
Look at Jurgen Klopp, for years he mouthed off about other teams spending, soon as he was handed the funds he spent it on top class players. Pochettino I think would target players who he believes have right mentality and would suit his system, and if possible he would bring them in. He wouldn't behave in exactly the same way he does at Spurs (where quite often he's forced to get inventive) because he wouldn't need to. I also fully believe his mentality towards cup competitions would change significantly if he joined an 'elite' club, though obviously I hope he stays long enough to make us that!
As a hypothetical, if Pochettino joined I think for the first season his aim would be to consolidate a position in the top 4 and simply have a season where he establishes his style of football on the team. Similar to his first season at Spurs where we actually struggled, but with more funds and more quality available to him. I'd say both Ole/Poch would have similar first season expectations, unless your board are entirely unreasonable.
Why compare a manager who has managed the same team for eons to one who came in a few months to a disaster site.
Every club with the potential to finish in the top 4 - including the smaller number with the potential to challenge for the league title - is a rival (in other words a serious competitor) to every other club in that position … because 6 into 4 doesn't go and thus 2 clubs lose out each season.Teach that to Glaston. He thinks Spurs are suddenly our rivals
Rival: "a person or thing competing with another for the same objective or for superiority in the same field of activity."
Being rivals is not confined to geographical proximity.
Nor are Spurs "suddenly" rivals to United (and Chelsea, City, Liverpool and Arsenal) - it's been the case for several years now.
Yes, it does. For example, if in terms of league position you are close to and vying with one other club for the league title, and both clubs are way ahead of the chasing pack, then that other club is your rival for the title regardless of whether they are located 10 miles away or 400 miles away.
Every season the aim for United is finish in the top 4 if they can (to secure CL football for the next season) - and then beyond that to challenge for the title if they can. This season, for example, United would bite your hand off for a top 4 finish and have no chance of challenging for the title.
It fools no-one to try and imply that United don't care about top 4 if they can't win the title. It's lofty pretentiousness. And it fools no-one to pretend that Spurs are not a rival competitor (along with 4 other clubs) for United for one of those top 4 places.
I never said all rivalries are geographical, I said Spurs' are because the only sides who care about them are West Ham, Arsenal and Chelsea. Like United, Liverpool and City don't give a toss about Spurs. Our biggest rivals in the PL era once upon a time was Arsenal because they were the ones we were competing with for the title, we don't give a shit about them now even if we are both occupying the same kind of league positions
And you talk about pretentiousness yet you're quite happy to talk about what Man Utd's aims are going into a season, let me fact check you, our aim is never to finish top 4, never has, never will. It's always to challenge for the title and anything less is irrelevant
Maybe one day Spurs will think the same, until that time though don't assume you know anything about the aims of clubs such as Man Utd
Cheers. There's been a significant internal shift at Spurs since the days of Juande Ramos, AVB and 'Arry. Every club has their timing, however Spurs have been able to sustain it at a high level under Poch's tenure so far.
The scouts for Spurs are doing a really great job in finding talent that can develop and be loyal. Whether or not Spurs can get that one or two missing pieces that get them over the hump and into the winner's circle remains to be seen.
Sissoko was a joke at the beginning coming from Newcastle, but Poch has found him a really good role in the side. Not as attacking but again, very disciplined and gives Spurs the strucutre and platform to win whenever he usually plays. Janseen has not worked out, but they've worked around him.
They beat out so many clubs when it came to Alderweireld, Vertongen, Lloris, Son and Dele Alli.
As I've said, it fools no-one to pretend that United don't care about top 4 if they can't win the title. Top 4 means another shot at the CL and United want this as much as any other club.
Moreover, you need to be able to walk before you can run … but you'll stay in denial over the fact that United are no longer in a foot race race with the likes of Barca and RM.
Utter bullshit. You are deliberately conflating competing for a position with rivalry. There may be 6-7 clubs capable of finshing in the top 4 in the EPL. But they are not all rivals. Not a chance in hell
Manchester United and Spurs do NOT have the same objectives as clubs. Quit this delusional nonsense.
I fail to see the relevance of geography to my stance.
Dude, It hasnt been the case at any point in more than 2 decades. United's rivals are teams that have consistently from time to time managed winning things over them. Not teams that have finished as the others in the top 4.
Is it though? I mean you haven't even launched the semblance of a challenge since Fergie. It would be weird for your club/board to be setting the target of 'win the league' every season when it's clearly a pretty unrealistic one.
If Ole gets appointed, I imagine his target will be to finish top four first season, as I imagine this was the aim for LVG and Mourinho in their respective first seasons. Maybe the fans always want/aim for the league, but realistically I think the minimum expectation of the board will be to finish within the top four.
I would seriously look at spurs recruitment rather than getting Poch. United's problems since Fergie has been down to poor investments and I can't imagine Poch alone is going to make us competitive. For the money we have spent we should be ahead of Spurs, and the fact that they look like they are making the next round of the Champions League further proves that we are badly mismanaged at the top.
Rival: "a person or thing competing with another for the same objective or for superiority in the same field of activity."Yes, Manchester United and Spurs DO have the same objectives as clubs. Do you imagine that Pochettino and Spurs won't do their best to win the CL this season if they possibly can? Do you imagine that Pochettino and Spurs won't do their best to win the league this season if they possibly can?
Quit this pretentious nonsense, as if United inhabit some separate, lofty universe. In the real world you're all but out of the CL, and down there in the mud scrapping with Arsenal and Chelsea for a top 4 finish.