Abortion

Frosty

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Yes I can hear you Clem Fandango!
Sorry technically seven not six grounds in Great Britain (different principles apply to NI).
  • Ground A – risk to the life of the pregnant woman;
  • Ground B – to prevent grave permanent injury to the physical or mental health of the pregnant woman;
  • Ground C – risk of injury to the physical or mental health of the pregnant woman (up to 24 weeks in the pregnancy);
  • Ground D – risk of injury to the physical or mental health of any existing children of the family of the pregnant woman (up to 24 weeks in the pregnancy);
  • Ground E – substantial risk that if the child were born it would suffer from such physical or mental abnormalities as to be seriously handicapped;
  • Ground F – to save the life of the pregnant woman; or
  • Ground G – to prevent grave permanent injury to the physical or mental health of the pregnant woman in an emergency
Ground C and Ground D have a 24 week limit. The others have no limit.
 

WI_Red

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why? Anyone can have a personal opinion about what they think it right. Most people who are pro/against are not thinking medically. Its often convenience. Girls who I know who have had abortions it was down to convenience/timing and anyone can have an opinion on this.,

In UK 24 weeks is the latest
What if we could abort a child at 28-34 weeks safely, would you be supportive?


Nah. Its not as simple as that. Putting it like this you force people into just two boxes for all their religious, moral, political, and practical beliefs on abortion
“Pro-choice” and “Anti-choice” labels don’t reflect the complexity of how most people actually think and feel about abortion. Many are in between. They believe abortion is acceptable up to a point.
.
If the life of the mother is in jeopardy? No limit at all.
 

Stacks

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Sorry technically seven not six grounds in Great Britain (different principles apply to NI).
  • Ground A – risk to the life of the pregnant woman;
  • Ground B – to prevent grave permanent injury to the physical or mental health of the pregnant woman;
  • Ground C – risk of injury to the physical or mental health of the pregnant woman (up to 24 weeks in the pregnancy);
  • Ground D – risk of injury to the physical or mental health of any existing children of the family of the pregnant woman (up to 24 weeks in the pregnancy);
  • Ground E – substantial risk that if the child were born it would suffer from such physical or mental abnormalities as to be seriously handicapped;
  • Ground F – to save the life of the pregnant woman; or
  • Ground G – to prevent grave permanent injury to the physical or mental health of the pregnant woman in an emergency
Ground C and Ground D have a 24 week limit. The others have no limit.
I see. But how can they tell it will cause grave injury to the mental health of the pregnant woman? What is injury to ones mental health?

if you are at 8 months and 3 weeks (pretty much at point of birth) how does the doctor decide on
Ground B (mental injury)
Ground C (mental injury)

My eyes have been truly opened. I had no idea in my country that you can abort a child right up to childbirth if there is a risk of;
  • risk of life of the pregnant woman
  • potential mental injury
  • if the baby will be handicapped

I always assumed they simply persevere and hope for the best outcome. So UK system is pretty much what the Americans pro abortionists want or not?
 

calodo2003

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I see. But how can they tell it will cause grave injury to the mental health of the pregnant woman? What is injury to ones mental health?

if you are at 8 months and 3 weeks (pretty much at point of birth) how does the doctor decide on
Ground B (mental injury)
Ground C (mental injury)

My eyes have been truly opened. I had no idea in my country that you can abort a child right up to childbirth if there is a risk of;
  • risk of life of the pregnant woman
  • potential mental injury
  • if the baby will be handicapped

I always assumed they simply persevere and hope for the best outcome. So UK system is pretty much what the Americans pro abortionists want or not?
As someone rightly mentioned earlier, it’s not being pro-abortion, it’s being pro-choice.
 

maniak

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Nah. Its not as simple as that. Putting it like this you force people into just two boxes for all their religious, moral, political, and practical beliefs on abortion
“Pro-choice” and “Anti-choice” labels don’t reflect the complexity of how most people actually think and feel about abortion. Many are in between. They believe abortion is acceptable up to a point.
.
How does labeling people pro-life (who often support the death penalty) or pro-abortion, making it sound like they like it, makes more sense?
 

Frosty

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Yes I can hear you Clem Fandango!
I see. But how can they tell it will cause grave injury to the mental health of the pregnant woman? What is injury to ones mental health?

if you are at 8 months and 3 weeks (pretty much at point of birth) how does the doctor decide on
Ground B (mental injury)
Ground C (mental injury)

My eyes have been truly opened. I had no idea in my country that you can abort a child right up to childbirth if there is a risk of;
  • risk of life of the pregnant woman
  • potential mental injury
  • if the baby will be handicapped

I always assumed they simply persevere and hope for the best outcome. So UK system is pretty much what the Americans pro abortionists want or not?
So it is a bit tricky because the UK has three legal systems (England & Wales, Scotland, and Northern Ireland), and so there are different legal regimes in each jurisdiction.

The system I quoted applies to Great Britain (England, Wales and Scotland).

Prior to 1967 two Acts of Parliament applied in England and Wales:

The Offences against the Person Act 1861, in England and Wales, prohibits administering drugs or using instruments to procure an abortion (section 58) and procuring drugs or other items to cause an abortion (section 59), although subsequent law has provided for a range of grounds which allow abortion to be widely available.

The Infant Life (Preservation) Act 1929 amended the law in England and Wales to create the offence of child destruction – in cases where any person "who, with intent to destroy the life of a child capable of being born alive, by any wilful act causes a child to die before it has an existence independent of its mother". For the purposes of this Act, a child whose mother has been pregnant for 28 weeks is deemed "capable of being born alive". The 1929 Act also provides a defence where it is proved that causing the death of the child was "done in good faith for the purpose only of preserving the life of the mother."

The state of play is that abortion is a crime which can be punished if it is procured outside of the legal regime.

The Abortion Act 1967 decriminalised abortions in certain circumstances, which I quoted above.

The Act permits abortion "by a registered medical practitioner if two registered medical practitioners are of the opinion, formed in good faith".

So you need two doctors to agree 'in good faith' that one of the seven grounds applies. Legally, the doctors judgment will be judged against the profession's norms - doctors will determine the standard for doctors to be judged by, with the courts regulating and overseeing that.

If a doctor does not act in good faith, or does not satisfy the grounds, then they could be charged with child destruction or the other offences listed above. Doctors will generally act cautiously with borderline cases as a result.

We have 50 years of case law which helps - courts have made decisions interpreting the scope of each of the seven grounds, and was constitutes 'risk to the life of the mother' and so on.

This system is far more restrictive than the US system was. There, women had a right to an abortion. In the UK, there is no such right, and doctors have to agree that the grounds are met (so a woman has to 'fit' her case into the law, and cannot assert a 'right to choose').

Northern Ireland now has a right to choose up to 12 weeks, making it more liberal than Great Britain (also politicians have dragged their feet and have not yet put the new law into practice).
 

Frosty

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Yes I can hear you Clem Fandango!
Some more Great Britain abortion stats:

Legal abortions performed under ground E
That there is substantial risk that if the child were born it would suffer from such physical or mental abnormalities as to be seriously handicapped.

Ground E abortions are those performed because of fetal abnormality at any gestation. There were 3,370 abortions performed under ground E in 2021.

In 2021, 65% of ground E abortions were performed medically and 87% of all abortions were performed medically.

There were 565 (16.8%) ground E abortions at 22 weeks and over and 274 (8.1%) ground E abortions at 24 weeks and over.

The age group with the highest proportion of abortions performed under ground E is 35 and over (3.4% of abortions for this age group were performed under ground E).

There was a total of 5,096 conditions mentioned on ground E forms in 2021. This is an increase from 4,495 in 2020.

Congenital malformations were the most common medical condition mentioned on HSA4 forms, making up 54% of conditions mentioned. Chromosomal abnormalities counted for 29% of conditions mentioned.

---

So there are very few abortions performed after 24 weeks.

274 abortions in a year under ground E after 24 weeks in 2021, out of 214,869 in total.

As stated elsewhere in the thread, many if not all of these cases will be a wanted pregnancy, where a name has been chosen and a nursery painted, only for tragic news to come through that the child has a serious medical condition which may not be survivable.
 

Frosty

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Yes I can hear you Clem Fandango!
For anyone interested, full abortion statistics for England and Wales are available here:

https://www.gov.uk/government/stati...21/abortion-statistics-england-and-wales-2021

And here is the percentage of abortions by gestation:



In 2021, 89% of abortions were performed under 10 weeks, increasing from 88% in 2020 and 78% in 2011. The percentage performed at 20 weeks was 1% in both 2020 and 2021.

Abortions may be performed after 24 weeks in certain circumstances, for example, if the mother’s life is at risk or the child would be born severely disabled. Abortions where gestation is 24 weeks or over account for a very small number of abortions (0.1% of the total). There were 276 such abortions in 2021 out of a total of 214,869.
 

nimic

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For anyone interested, full abortion statistics for England and Wales are available here:

https://www.gov.uk/government/stati...21/abortion-statistics-england-and-wales-2021

And here is the percentage of abortions by gestation:



In 2021, 89% of abortions were performed under 10 weeks, increasing from 88% in 2020 and 78% in 2011. The percentage performed at 20 weeks was 1% in both 2020 and 2021.

Abortions may be performed after 24 weeks in certain circumstances, for example, if the mother’s life is at risk or the child would be born severely disabled. Abortions where gestation is 24 weeks or over account for a very small number of abortions (0.1% of the total). There were 276 such abortions in 2021 out of a total of 214,869.
Looks similar to Norway. In 2021, 84.5% of abortions were performed before week 9. A further 10.9% were performed between weeks 9 and 12 (the limit for abortion on request), and 4.6% after 12 weeks. After 12 weeks you have to go in front of a panel of sorts, and 98.2% of those lead to an abortion. The primary panel always consists of two doctors, one man and one woman. One of them is always employed at the health clinic that will perform the abortion, and one appointed by the county governor. If they refuse the abortion, it automatically goes to an appeal panel, which always consists of five people. At least two have to be doctors, and one legal professional, and always three women and two men.

I personally think the panels need to be moved back to at least the 15th week, but the system does function.
 

Stacks

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So it is a bit tricky because the UK has three legal systems (England & Wales, Scotland, and Northern Ireland), and so there are different legal regimes in each jurisdiction.

The system I quoted applies to Great Britain (England, Wales and Scotland).

Prior to 1967 two Acts of Parliament applied in England and Wales:

The Offences against the Person Act 1861, in England and Wales, prohibits administering drugs or using instruments to procure an abortion (section 58) and procuring drugs or other items to cause an abortion (section 59), although subsequent law has provided for a range of grounds which allow abortion to be widely available.

The Infant Life (Preservation) Act 1929 amended the law in England and Wales to create the offence of child destruction – in cases where any person "who, with intent to destroy the life of a child capable of being born alive, by any wilful act causes a child to die before it has an existence independent of its mother". For the purposes of this Act, a child whose mother has been pregnant for 28 weeks is deemed "capable of being born alive". The 1929 Act also provides a defence where it is proved that causing the death of the child was "done in good faith for the purpose only of preserving the life of the mother."

The state of play is that abortion is a crime which can be punished if it is procured outside of the legal regime.

The Abortion Act 1967 decriminalised abortions in certain circumstances, which I quoted above.

The Act permits abortion "by a registered medical practitioner if two registered medical practitioners are of the opinion, formed in good faith".

So you need two doctors to agree 'in good faith' that one of the seven grounds applies. Legally, the doctors judgment will be judged against the profession's norms - doctors will determine the standard for doctors to be judged by, with the courts regulating and overseeing that.

If a doctor does not act in good faith, or does not satisfy the grounds, then they could be charged with child destruction or the other offences listed above. Doctors will generally act cautiously with borderline cases as a result.

We have 50 years of case law which helps - courts have made decisions interpreting the scope of each of the seven grounds, and was constitutes 'risk to the life of the mother' and so on.

This system is far more restrictive than the US system was. There, women had a right to an abortion. In the UK, there is no such right, and doctors have to agree that the grounds are met (so a woman has to 'fit' her case into the law, and cannot assert a 'right to choose').

Northern Ireland now has a right to choose up to 12 weeks, making it more liberal than Great Britain (also politicians have dragged their feet and have not yet put the new law into practice).
only if its past 6 months though. up to then a woman can get an abortion without potential refusal? The only bits I have found is on NHS site
 

Frosty

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Yes I can hear you Clem Fandango!
only if its past 6 months though. up to then a woman can get an abortion without potential refusal? The only bits I have found is on NHS site
Thanks for the reply.

The two doctors requirement applies for all grounds of abortion.

However in practice this does not mean that two doctors examine or speak to the woman. The longer into the pregnancy the abortion is proposed to take place, the more stringent the doctors will be.

Two doctors must specify on what ground/s an abortion can be provided (with both needing to agree that at least one and the same ground is met) along with providing other prescribed information. Current regulations stipulate that they can do so through filling in a particular official document.

The BMA and RCOG maintain that first trimester abortion is automatically legal, as the risks of the procedure are always lower than the risks of continuing with the pregnancy.

For abortions in the first 12 weeks it is often the practice of doctors (deemed good practice by the profession), that the second physician can sign the documentation after being briefed by the first doctor.
 

WI_Red

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Question. This is the definition of a US Citizen as per the 14th Amendment. Would this not mean that a fetus has not Constitutional protections?

Section 1
All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.
 

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Surely there been a federal case that established a state [1] you cannot charge someone for an act that occurs in another state [2] that is legal in that state [2] but not in the state [1] in question?
 

WI_Red

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Surely there been a federal case that established a state [1] you cannot charge someone for an act that occurs in another state [2] that is legal in that state [2] but not in the state [1] in question?
Sir/Madam, this is America.
 

Carolina Red

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Wow... The doctor did the procedure in a state that allows abortion right? So this has to be all bark and no bite.
Yes. And performed it so a 10 year old didn’t get split in half giving birth.

“Pro-life” piece of shit AG just wants to scare people.
 

UnrelatedPsuedo

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Bill Burr closes out his new special with the most adult take on this. I do of course say this as he wraps jokes around my own view. The Mail and Fox will be writing about it in days to come and find a way to piss their pants about it.

On Netflix now.