At least if we all burn that will make one less pro-lifer and the world will be a better place, right?
Alabama outlaws abortion
- Thread starter horsechoker
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What he's given you is called a "choiceless choice" aka "Sophie's choice". I teach about them in my Holocaust class. In them there's no "good decision", but there is a decision to make and you have to make it.
So... make a choice.
What does you giving a Holocaust class have to do with this?
Did you think asking if I’ll sit in fire with them would encourage me to answer? That was an unnecessarily sarcastic remark. If you weren’t a member of staff I’d almost think you were trying to wind me up.
I’ve already answered by saying it represents a moral dilemma for me. Unless I find myself in that situation I really can’t tell which option I will choose.
1) I'm just pointing out that you're not being tricked here. It's an actual "thing" that is frequently used in educational settings because it is something that does happen in real life.
2) I said that remark because there is no real "other" option here. You must choose 1 of the 2 options he gave you in a "Sophie's choice" type situation, and because I'm used to having to give that "then you'll die too" response when students try to back out of answering a choiceless choice scenario.
3) Saying it is a moral dilemma isn't an answer. It's understood that it's a moral dilemma, that's why it's part of a "choiceless choice" exercise.
Baby or 1000 feritilized eggs...?
My answer is C-“I don’t know”.
I would make that choice in the heat of the moment. Given too much time I will tend to overthink it and find myself shifting from one option to the other over and over.
You have a really hard time understanding that there is no choice C, don't you?
Sophie was forced by a Nazi to choose whether her daughter or her son would be taken to Auschwitz, the other would be saved. If she choose "C", then they were both taken.
Again, there is no C.
The baby, the 1000 fertilized eggs, or all 1001 of them die (there's your C).
In every country that isn't black there are cases where it's allowed. In every country that isn't red it isn't restricted to saving the mothers life. I won't do the math but I'd be surprised if blue and green countries didn't make up 75% of the worlds population. I guess we can debate about what constitutes a "vast majority", but lets not.
Sure, in that sense there's a lot left to be done. Every place is very significant to those living there... I'm trying to say that the pro-life argument isn't validated by the existence of a lot of backward places.
You have a really hard time understanding that I can’t tell until I find myself in that situation.
Sophie had to make a choice in the heat of the moment like I would do too if it came to that, she wasn’t asked on an Internet forum with nothing at stake (no pun intended).
That's pretty disappointing. My students were able to answer 10 of these. Heck, I'll even ask them this one too.
Abortion is a choiceless choice, too. You realize that, right?
But that map shows that the debate isn’t settled though, as even those restrictions still vary around the world. I’d argue it’s only in the deep blue and maybe green countries that the debate seems to have been closed (for now).
In every country that isn't black there are cases where it's allowed. In every country that isn't red it isn't restricted to saving the mothers life. I won't do the math but I'd be surprised if blue and green countries didn't make up 75% of the worlds population. I guess we can debate about what constitutes a "vast majority", but lets not.
And by the way I’m not for the total unconditional banning, my personal view is found in one of the different shades, not black. As long as these different opinions exist the debate will go on.
I know, I’m disappointed as well. I’m pretty devastated because that means I would get an F if I was one of your students.
Let’s agree to disagree about your last question and I really don’t want to be drawn into that debate, like I’ve said already multiple times in this thread.
PS: I can predict that your pro-choice students would very probably pick saving the baby, since the foetus is considered as not being “human”.
Somebody said it earlier, but...
Just imagine being on a discussion forum to not discuss things.
Also, I wouldn’t give you an F on that. I’d just tell you you’ve let all of them in the fire when you could have saved one or the other. Good job.
Edit: 12 baby to 6 eggs. Class breakdown: 11 pro-life vs. 7 pro-choice
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Isn't it strange that a pro life advocate would refuse to answer your question because theywould have to be in that situation to consider it fully but wants a real choice taken away from people who are in a very real situation that would affect the rest of their lives and the childs.
A more apt question would be a choice between aborting a fetus after a horrific rape or that child been born and rights given to the father who is very obvious a scumbag rapist cnut. That's a very real question that female victims of abuse face everyday. Not a hypothetical but something that can happen to any woman in our lives.
About the discussing things, to each day it’s own fight. I’ve picked my fight for today, I’ll have that other argument on another day. My purpose delving into this particular thread was only to discuss that this topic is by no means closed in society as I saw that some seemed to think, but the debate is still very much open.
And yes, in the virtual scenario I’ve left all of them in the fire. If it ever happens to me in real life I’ll be sure to make a choice and I’m pretty sure I’ll pick an option on impulse quite fast.
Yeah, crazy stuff isn't it.
I'm interested if he had that self realization...
If he's up to answering this one again, we might find out.
I’m happy you corrected it to a more realistic question because the live baby or thousand foetuses question isn’t a very realistic one, to be fair, and has little to do with what pro-lifers advocate.
How could he when it's all hypothetical .
Yes, I do realise the difficulty of that particular choice (in the case of rape).
And no, I still wouldn’t answer because then I’ll have to justify my answer and explain lots of things which I've decided I don’t want to do today.
Also it was pointed out earlier that a very tiny portion of abortion requests come from rape victims so it’s not even the core of the abortion debate either
Question for the pro-lifers; in a legal environment where women have the choice to abort a pregnancy or not abort a pregnancy, no one is forcing you to abort babies, so why do you feel it is just to deny women that choice?
Actually, in a Sophie's choice you're not supposed to be asked to justify your answer. I never ask my students to justify theirs.
What's the point in justification if there's no good choice to be made?
But that is typically why people don't answer choiceless choice questions... they're afraid of judgment.
Indeed, I understood that yet I still couldn’t make a hypothetical choice for the baby vs thousand foetuses dilemma.
I wouldn't call myself Pro Life so maybe I'm not allowed to answer your question so I won't. But I'll ask why is it that Abortion can be allowed to be such a casual response to a casual mistake? In what other walks of life do you not have to live with the consequences of such a serious mistake?
But I'm not Pro Life because I won't tell women what to do with their bodies and I'll say as someone 'religious' that religion shouldn't be involved in state law making or law enforcement because we've seen the cruelty that has resulted in religion taking that out of women's hands but rather advocate from a separated church and preach that yes, life is sacred, all life, innocent or wicked.
It’s not just a financial decision. You can use that to bolster your argument, but there is far more involved in it.
A woman needs to be allowed to make that decision apart from the delusion of religions& apart from gender politics foisted upon her by men.
That is an interestingly broad use of the word casual.
Well substitute your own word. I'm obviously not discussing rape responsible for a tiny proportion of the abortions undertaken but instead abortion being substituted for contraception in that 'casual' sense.
I don't understand why a woman should have to go through with a pregnancy if that conception happens through rape or incest.
Yes, but people don't use abortion as contraception nor consider having an abortion a causal matter. People make mistakes but, "feck it, I'll get an abortion" isn't really a common mindset. I think casual is a harsh word to use and not many people are blase about getting an abortion I can't imagine. It's not that hard to make a mistake and get pregnant.
They shouldn't. The answer appears to be because other people think they should.
I'm sorry, I can't say I know the mindset but I'm glad I have you to tell me. Maybe it is a harsh word but it's a serious matter so we do need to talk about it in serious terms. My belief is that making a mistake and getting pregnant is not the sort of mistake we should be having. Maybe we all need a different mindset.
Boom.
I have 3 questions for @Dave89
1. What about abortion where the mother's life is at serious risk if she is forced to carry to term and attempt delivery? Or if both the mother and child's lives are at serious risk?
2. What if your wife was raped (horrible scenario that I apologise for using) and she turned to you and said she wanted an abortion. Would you support her? Or try to force her to change her mind?
3. Off topic, but what about euthenasia for terminal patients who are in excruciating agony but of sound mind and wanting to end their lives?
1. What about abortion where the mother's life is at serious risk if she is forced to carry to term and attempt delivery? Or if both the mother and child's lives are at serious risk?
2. What if your wife was raped (horrible scenario that I apologise for using) and she turned to you and said she wanted an abortion. Would you support her? Or try to force her to change her mind?
3. Off topic, but what about euthenasia for terminal patients who are in excruciating agony but of sound mind and wanting to end their lives?
You are always allowed to answer any of my questions @oates
You give a good answer, by the way. I'll just say that I'm glad I'm not a woman and don't have to make or live with that kind of choice as it surely must be a difficult one in many cases.
But mistakes do happen, whether they should or shouldn't happen for all sorts of reasons. That doesn't make mistakes ok, but I don't believe the option to rectify those mistakes shouldn't be available.
I'm also not telling you about mindsets. I don't believe people take abortion lightly or see it as contraception or as casual. I may be wrong, but not in my experience. I consider it a highly serious matter too. I believe the people who get abortions also think it is serious.
I don't want to make life even more difficult for women in a difficult situation, it's not my place to put them to the torture but we realise that there are different causes and can only have sympathy for all. However the result isn't always as pleasant as the cause and I suppose I am talking about those who believe it or not - and it isn't just the woman's decision making at fault - where the cause isn't a choice of contraception. I've a wife who touched on it earlier on in this thread and when you understand that a lot of the business is repeat then we're not talking about a lot of care taken.
Personally I think anyone denying Abortion to women whose contraception has failed or is the result or coercion, or rape deserves a special hell here on Earth but Pro-Choice needs to talk about not just other options and still their right to an abortion but also counsel ignorance and laziness. In our society we should be still about fixing problems not denying they exist.
Thank you for your reply, hopefully my reply to Dwazza is also suitable to you with the content.
Totally and I get it.
Oh I understand that. It was rumoured that the one of the partners at a restaurant where I worked at did just that (it was owned by a husband and wife) because she didn't want to have kids. I'm not sure we need to be concerned about those people. We wouldn't want them having kids anyway.
My post clearly refers to the white male legislators who made this possible. What of it?