Why do you want to force the child to be with potentially unfit parents if it is born? So you've ruined 3 lives there instead of 0-1.
Alabama outlaws abortion
- Thread starter horsechoker
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) was joined by comedian Ali Woods to look back at the best and worst moments of a rollercoaster season with the annual United Hour Awards.
Has Ten Hag been sacked yet? We're not sure and we hope not, but it's looking more likely as the days pass.
Who should replace him and why is it taking so long to make a decision?
No clue about Penna’s post, haven’t read it. Probably wouldn’t sway me one iota.
You obviously didn’t realize that statement was a bit farcical, focused on the idiotic & unconstitutional rule passed by the Alabama state senate. Sad that it was what you cut & pasted from my post while completely ignoring the truth in my first paragraph. Says a lot (even if we are posting in an abortion thread).
I read your whole post but most of wasn’t worth a response.
This just goes to illuminate your misguided focus & beliefs. No worries, though.
You’re not illuminating anything, and you don’t know much about my beliefs.
Misguided focus? Please enlighten me.
What is happening in the states now is a form of class war(Yeah I know I'm predicable)over the access to abortion. Debates about when life begins, abortion as a form of contraception etc are about as enlighten as monkeys throwing shit at each other. The Republicans won't actually over turn Roe as that would have huge negative worldwide press and importantly have a negative effect on part of their voter base - White women(Mostly middle to upper class).
Republicans will and are instead attacking the accessibility of getting abortions which of course hurts working class women. Add to this the criminalisation of abortion which has numerous effects including taking away the right to vote and it becomes clear this is just another tool to help republicans keep power in a country that overwhelming fecking hates them.
Republicans will and are instead attacking the accessibility of getting abortions which of course hurts working class women. Add to this the criminalisation of abortion which has numerous effects including taking away the right to vote and it becomes clear this is just another tool to help republicans keep power in a country that overwhelming fecking hates them.
You wrongly accused me of wishing rape on someone, then had the nerve to tell me to get over myself, and then even lied about apologizing to me. You’re having a mare.
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If you don't want to accept my apology, then so be it. It was all the way back on page 10. Having a mare? Like I said, get over yourself.
This was the received wisdom a while ago. It is a solid material reasoning.
And it no longer works. Capital no loner fully controls the GOP. The Trump trade war hurts industry and finance. It hurts farmers, who are a core part of the GOP base. But he has gone forward with it. The party has made some attempts to stop him, but hasn't been able to.
The lunatics are in charge of that gutter party, or at least have partial control now. They may have known amongst themselves that this was a culture war issue to keep the evangelicals on side, but the line between the culture war base and the leadership has disappeared. They leaders are true believers.
For a weird analogy - it makes sense for capital, as a whole, to regulate greenhouse gases. Future profits, and the reproduction of the system, are at stake. Indeed there is a belief amongst some orthodox left-Communists that climate change is not an existential threat under capitalism since they won't let anything impact profits. But that is obviously not what is happening. That collective action by capital has't happened. The fossil fuel industry, chasing short and medium term profits, has been pushing its demands through, with the help of finance. It will hurt them all, just like the abortion ban might, but that's not stopping them.
The feck it is. Now you’re doubling down on your lie with denial.
How do you define apology?
I see you're redefining what "Florida Man" means!
Well done!A simple basic English sentence of “I’m sorry-” or “I apologize for accusing you of wishing rape on someone”. Or even a “my bad Florida Man”. But nah, you’re just doubling down and now trying to make your way into personal insults. So on top of having shit opinions, wrongful accusations, and lying, you’re now a hypocrite. One more moment of feckup and you’ll have a bingo.How do you define apology?
I see you're redefining what "Florida Man" means!
Did you not go back to page 10 and read my post where I simply stated: "I apologize to Florida Man"?? Or stay on this page and re-read post #409 where I quoted my own apology?
Let's get back on topic...
I misread it as apologized but that’s still not a real apology because it’s indirect. I’ll show you how it’s done. My bad for accusing you of lying. You’re not a liar. Just a honest guy with shit oppressive opinions.
Accepted
And you only know of one shit opinion I hold! We might agree on everything else there is...who knows.
As for this particular "oppressive" opinion, what do you think I believe? I've stated earlier that I'm not for the full-ban Alabama decision. I've even lived for 30 years of my life as a Pro-choice voter. I believe women ultimately should be deciding this "ruling". But personally, if I'm fortunate enough to get a woman pregnant again, I would stand firmly against her if she wanted to abort. Does that make sense?
I swear I'm not on the Alabama state senate. I'd love to continue this discussion with you and everyone else. I jumped into this thread solely because I wanted to stand up for Dave. Again, I apologize to you and respect your opinions.
Alright cool, I think we’re good on that now.Accepted
And you only know of one shit opinion I hold! We might agree on everything else there is...who knows.
As for this particular "oppressive" opinion, what do you think I believe? I've stated earlier that I'm not for the full-ban Alabama decision. I've even lived for 30 years of my life as a Pro-choice voter. I believe women ultimately should be deciding this "ruling". But personally, if I'm fortunate enough to get a woman pregnant again, I would stand firmly against her if she wanted to abort. Does that make sense?
I swear I'm not on the Alabama state senate. I'd love to continue this discussion with you and everyone else. I jumped into this thread solely because I wanted to stand up for Dave. Again, I apologize to you and respect your opinions.
To answer your question, It’s oppressive to enact laws that prevent women from making that choice of their own and it’s oppressive to support that initiative. Imagine women making laws telling men they can’t have vasectomies because of some idea that sperm are life worth protecting? If you are personally against abortion, that’s completely fine. If you object to your SO having one that’s also fine as long as you don’t force the decision onto her. If you object to others having abortions, then convince them otherwise by telling your story, not supporting oppressive laws.
Apart from the principle of it being a woman’s choice, abortion laws are a way to control both women’s and men’s sexual liberties. And the conservative values folks have been at war with women’s sexual liberties since the dawn of modern time. I also have to argue about the other implications of carrying to term. There is little to no support once the baby is born especially if the mother and, if even in the picture, the father is poor. If the parents are terribly unprepared for parenthood, especially from the poor and uneducated folks, we’re gonna have another shithead for a kid in our ranks. Furthermore, it’s already bad enough our population increase is dramatically affecting our carbon footprint and killing our environment. If we could help it by providing the option to abort then I’m all for it. Lastly, abortion laws don’t actually stop abortion. They just make it way more unsafe. If you want to see less abortion, then vote for representatives who will invest in people by providing very cheap or free forms of contraception and actively moving people out of poverty.
Another lastly, this debate should have been put to bed back in the 70s and the continuous battle against abortion is eating up political capital to solve real problems in this world like climate change, the military industrial complex, the prison industrial complex, white nationalism, fresh water resources, the insane amount of plastic pollution in our oceans, dying bees, dying birds, the increasing economic gap between rich and poor, automation taking jobs away, world hunger, and so many more.
Think this is a strawman. Not sure the 2 are related. Ones an innocent child, the other likely has evidence they murdered someone else. Not relatable
Then she should change the wording. Every life is obviously false.
Possibly, but i still think comparing the two situations is a reach
You mean like comparing a clump of cells to an actual person?
I don't see how. She says that she feels every life is precious. She is lying.
She is basically this
Is it feck, life is life. One is a clump of cells with no consciousness, the other is a living breathing fully grown human being. If a 12 week “human” is “innocent” then a tree is also innocent and should never be cut down, cows, goats, pigs etc should be precious to you also. It’s cherry picking nonsense.
And for what it’s worth, not all guilty people are actually guilty. Plenty of human beings have been executed on extremely questionable convictions.
It is clearly not a strawman. Read her words. All life is sacred. Not all life we deem to be good is sacred.
And considering the non sentient collection of cells that constitutes an early stage foetus to be innocent is closer to a strawman as it's like ascribing innocence to an ovum.
Why?
Fecking hell I missed that. I'm sorry Florida man got caught up in that, but can I ask the mods, if they won't name the poster, can they tell me if the poster still has posting privileges here?
It's a bit mad that someone's sitting here posting rape threats in the name of liberalism, and probably congratulating themselves for it.
PM them rather than continuing to pursue your justice in a discussion thread?
No, I think the behaviour of both sides of this argument belongs on the record. Don't whitewash the rape threats and abuse.
Ok Dave.
How do the likes of @Dave89 see IVF if all life is to be considered sacred by the way?
If a couple goes through IVF and ends up with 10 fertilized eggs, does that mean they need to have 10 babies as all of those are human life?
If a couple goes through IVF and ends up with 10 fertilized eggs, does that mean they need to have 10 babies as all of those are human life?
I understand the tragic situation you've shared with us and the terrible effect it's had on you and your wife, and that that it's almost certain you and her are on the same page in your case, but that bolded sentence is a terrible one.Accepted
And you only know of one shit opinion I hold! We might agree on everything else there is...who knows.
As for this particular "oppressive" opinion, what do you think I believe? I've stated earlier that I'm not for the full-ban Alabama decision. I've even lived for 30 years of my life as a Pro-choice voter. I believe women ultimately should be deciding this "ruling". But personally, if I'm fortunate enough to get a woman pregnant again, I would stand firmly against her if she wanted to abort. Does that make sense?
I swear I'm not on the Alabama state senate. I'd love to continue this discussion with you and everyone else. I jumped into this thread solely because I wanted to stand up for Dave. Again, I apologize to you and respect your opinions.
To be honest if you genuinely believe that then every woman who has had an abortion has committed murder in your eyes and you have to be completely pro-life with almost zero exceptions.
That's an odd one alright. I'm not opposed to it, despite the fact I believe the church is, but those who think I'm a religious zealot won't care.
Technically there's a conception there, but it's artificial and clinical at that stage. If I understand properly, it's not in the process of actively becoming a grown adult like me or you, further active clinical work is still required for viability. The difference with an abortion is that we are actively intervening to stop human growth, with ivf we are just not actively intervening to further it.
Not entirely to do with the point you make, but I think the Church should have no influence whatsoever on legislation about anything.
They shouldn't directly set laws, but in a representative democracy, if a majority of voters are aligned with their beliefs then it will logically follow that laws reflect that.
That's fair enough. That's also the weak point of democracy. Most people are too daft to know what's good for them. Given enough time, we might eventually evolve past religion though, so who knows.
Afraid me, my kids and their kids will be long dead by then.
It’s a fine response, cheers. While I strongly disagree, one of the reasons why this is a great forum is that it gives the possibility to discuss things like this with people who see the world completely different than myself, or anyone I know for that matter. I come from one of the most liberal countries in the world and I’ve never met anyone in real life that was against abortion. They’d probably be considered a bit mad, so perhaps they exist but just choose not to say it out loud.
I understand that in theory life begins at conception, but I just don’t see an unborn, 12 week-old fetus as a person with the right to live at all costs. Imo, what a child should be entitled to is a set of parents that actually want it instead of say, an 18-year old high school student who only met the father the same night in a bar and was too drunk to remember to use a condom.
I’ve mentioned it before in here, but there already so many people on Earth, so many that we are well on our way to destroying it. No need to force children on people who don’t want them.
I don't want to force anyone to do anything other than act more responsibly, there is another option of Adoption, but how are we to know that lives are going to be ruined? We're not clairvoyant and just because the pregnancy was thoughtless why can't we offer support and education over bringing up a child? What's so terrible about changing?
I was born illegitimate so I guess I feel strongly that although I wasn't planned my mother took on raising a child without any support from a father. It can't have been easy but I know my mother and I never regretted that I was born.
I think you'll find that one way or another through life that mistakes cost us something.
I agree that is an entirely reasonable and appropriate approach and that is how I feel society should attempt to educate and support in these situations, with the caveat however that it is the women's choice to decide to abort if she thinks that is best.