Everyone were singing Jones' forays so far this season, and now with one bad result it has now become a problem. We've played an open attacking game all season. Regardless of who's been played in central defence. The end game should be we score more goals than the opposition.
Alas poor Carrick...WTF has happened?
- Thread starter Carl
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am not advocating a change in approach. its brilliant to see. but, the results have made us complacent i think. the back 4 need to be woken up. also, as i said, the midfield needs to protect them better. the approach is great but we can be better defensively without compromising on the attacking aspect.
There's a balance to be struck though. With the amount of good chances missed by the likes of Arsenal, Chelsea and Spurs it was only a matter of time before somebody punished us.
Worryingly enough, Basle were wasteful themselves!
Don't know what half of you were smokin last night if you think Carrick's performance contributed to our poor defending.
I have been a fierce critic of Carrick's unwillingness to take the initiative and go missing, but last night i thought he was outstanding. His best inidividual performance for a long time.
His forward passing was superb, quick, accurate and incisive. His workrate was also fantastic, he got up and down the pitch and even regularly covered the full back positions.
The problem last night was the gung ho approach of the full backs and everybody else bar Carrick and Ferdinand. The defence last night was absolultely shocking, all over the place. The signs have been there against Chelsea and Stoke, but this was a truly abysmal defensive display where we rode our luck yet again and could easily have conceded 3 in the first half hour.
Did we learn our lesson. No! Continuing to concede chances of that quality, it was inevitable that we were going to concede before too long. As it was we got lucky again over the whole game, we could easily have conceded twice as many with the space we gave the strikers.
We have become complacent after the quality of our start, but we quickly need to get back to basics imo. If we continue to provide the opposition with sitters time and again, we simply cannot continue to rely on wasteful strikers missing gilt edged chances. We need more discipline and leadership especially from the more experienced players to set a more responsible example to the youngsters.
I have been a fierce critic of Carrick's unwillingness to take the initiative and go missing, but last night i thought he was outstanding. His best inidividual performance for a long time.
His forward passing was superb, quick, accurate and incisive. His workrate was also fantastic, he got up and down the pitch and even regularly covered the full back positions.
The problem last night was the gung ho approach of the full backs and everybody else bar Carrick and Ferdinand. The defence last night was absolultely shocking, all over the place. The signs have been there against Chelsea and Stoke, but this was a truly abysmal defensive display where we rode our luck yet again and could easily have conceded 3 in the first half hour.
Did we learn our lesson. No! Continuing to concede chances of that quality, it was inevitable that we were going to concede before too long. As it was we got lucky again over the whole game, we could easily have conceded twice as many with the space we gave the strikers.
We have become complacent after the quality of our start, but we quickly need to get back to basics imo. If we continue to provide the opposition with sitters time and again, we simply cannot continue to rely on wasteful strikers missing gilt edged chances. We need more discipline and leadership especially from the more experienced players to set a more responsible example to the youngsters.
Thank you!
Glad I'm not going mad. Good to hear my opinion is shared by someone who's a lot less positive than me about Carrick's contributions in general. He played really really well last night. Some of the ratings/comments in the ratings thread are beyond mental.
Its not a problem. Just something to take care of. Its good, all the positive attitude and his willingness to get forward, but when he does, someone needs to cover for him. cant have just rio back there all on his own with carrick at the halfway line giving him company when all 3 of jones evra and fabio were attacking. Thats all there is to it for me.
Last night was the kick in the arse some youngsters needed and Evra. I feel sorry for De Gea more then anything given that he didn't do a whole lot wrong.
I'd have liked Carrick to sit back a bit more, especially given the first goal and the events leading up to it, but, I won't blame him for the shambolic defending.
I'd have liked Carrick to sit back a bit more, especially given the first goal and the events leading up to it, but, I won't blame him for the shambolic defending.
I thought he didn't cover as well as he usually does last night, althought most of the joy Basel got was down the wings when Fabio and Evra had gone walkies and that's not Carrick's fault!
He got forward a lot more often than usual and played some really good balls but seemed to seize up just outside the area. A couple of times he made a great run forward and somebody would play a ball to where he looked as though he was heading only for Carrick to turn around and head back to the centre of the park.
He got forward a lot more often than usual and played some really good balls but seemed to seize up just outside the area. A couple of times he made a great run forward and somebody would play a ball to where he looked as though he was heading only for Carrick to turn around and head back to the centre of the park.
Well said.
I'm wondering how the midfield can be blamed for the defence being AWOL. It was like the 4-2 home defeat to Liverpool all over again. Thankfully it didn't end in defeat.
He's a fecking defender, first and foremost.
Depends on the situation. If the opposition just make the most of the opportunities they have, then obviously the midfield can't be blamed. If however, the opposition are getting through our midfield far too easily and constantly getting 2-on-2 or 3-on-3 with our defenders, then it's only a matter of time before they put some of those chances away. Even with our best defence (let alone the injury ravaged one we see at the moment) you don't want the attackers running at them with numbers as often as what we're seeing so far this season.
But surely the midfield cannot be expected to pick up strikers unless they drop deep? This did not look the case last night to me. I saw the full backs racing up field and getting caught out of position. Carrick or one of the centre halves were then pulled wide to cover these spaces leaving more space in central areas.
Had the full backs shown more discipline, the central area would have been better covered more often. As it happens the centre halves did not play well defensively last night, but they were exposed much too often by the full backs for my liking. That for me was the cause of most of the uncertainty and lack of organisation last night.
You can't go into microscopic detail. We played 4-4-2 with Giggs, Carrick and Anderson so who was defending? Who was helping the defense? We don't know the instructions, but to me no one was bothered. I think people often swing to extremes. If Carrick is a defensive midfielder, then where was he? If he's not what is going on? They were 1 on 1 with our defenders 5+ times.....Someones not doing their job. If it's in a central position with a gap in the final third it's either Giggs/Park/Anderson or Carrick. People talk about out wide but most of their threat was central. Even if you beat a full back once or twice, most of their chances were was good play through the centre but there was no energy. Look at the second goal, people jogging back the ball comes in and we've one defender in the box (rio). It was a shambles. When you are 2-0 at home, you rely on your experience to see you through. No one came out with much credit..
I'm talking more this season as a whole, rather than just this match. I was still half-asleep while watching this one so I'm not sure who was at fault for us being so open.
Carrick has always had the brilliant ability to slow the oppositions attacks down. They'll be counter-attacking at pace, and Carrick somehow positions himself in the perfect position so the player with the ball can't run any further forward with it, and also can't play much of an attacking pass to someone else. So they'll have to slow down and more often than not play a pass sideways or backwards, and in the meantime our players have all got back in position and what was a dangerous counter-attack is now just a normal attack against our prepared defence. So while he doesn't actually win the ball back himself, he makes the team as a whole more solid.
However, all this season I've been noticing players running past him more than normal.
It's not so much the strikers that cause the problem. It's the opposition midfielders getting in behind our midfielders and then feeding the strikers.
Carrick has always had the brilliant ability to slow the oppositions attacks down. They'll be counter-attacking at pace, and Carrick somehow positions himself in the perfect position so the player with the ball can't run any further forward with it, and also can't play much of an attacking pass to someone else. So they'll have to slow down and more often than not play a pass sideways or backwards, and in the meantime our players have all got back in position and what was a dangerous counter-attack is now just a normal attack against our prepared defence. So while he doesn't actually win the ball back himself, he makes the team as a whole more solid.
However, all this season I've been noticing players running past him more than normal.
He can't win on this forum. If he plays defensively people complain about him not stamping his foot on the game. When he does show authority and push's forward people complain cause he leaves a little bit of space in behind him. He doesn't have the engine to be a box-to-box midfielder, but if he could play like he did last night for the rest of the season he will be very good for us. He was quick with the ball, sharp with his passing, forced the ball forward and rarely got caught in possession.
Actually we can, not definitively but we can surely speculate based on what we watched.
Everybody is supposed to offer some form of defensive cover. But for me the full backs did nothing to help the defence last night.
Everywhere last night, it is beyond me how he can take any criticism for last night's display.
The threat was eventually central but intially caused by space on the flanks. Fabio and Evra simply bombed forward at every opportunity and left huge gaps when they did so. The centre halves or Carrick were then forced to fill in these areas, which subsequently left the central areas exposed.
It's not that difficult to explain really, Basle were very cohesive, the manager had done his homework and their tactics paid off time and again. We were poorly organised and lacked both leadership and organisation. The defensive frailties have been getting increasingly more evident as the games have progressed this season.
I believe some of the players have started to believe their own hype and have neglected the basics in favour of all out attack. A naive approach which must soon be remedied, because if Basle had taken even half of their chances last night, we would be talking about a heavy defeat rather than simply a disappointing draw.
United/Carrick don't play zonal in midfield. He can't cover all the space in the middle on his own.
Shared burden.
Get a grip some of you. The defence that night was just garbage. Even if you had Keane and Vieira at their peak infront of them we'd have still conceded 3 goals. Sometimes a defence is simply unprotectable.
Carrick was good on the ball, and he was one of our best players. He did leave huge gaps though, and was not half as good as tracking their players or protecting the defence. Anderson didn't really help him though, nor did the defence. Some of it was still down to Carrick though. Still, he was one of our best players on the night, easily.
Some of the balls he plays are just superb.
Sure it's shared but Carrick wasn't not even in the right position and I wouldn't consider Giggs/Anderson that sort of player. Carricks not the most mobile at the best of times. It was a strange performance
The defense were exposed. Even if they're sluggish you have to give Basle credit. Their attacking movement was very good. There was very little tracking back - especially for the second goal. If you watch that again, that really summed up the night.
Not sure I agree with this, despite it not being only Carrick's fault personally. For us to concede 7 or 8 good chances against such a poor team cannot be merely 2 or 3 defenders playing crap. It has to be almost everyone with a defensive duty being inept, Carrick included.
If we conceded only three chances and they converted them all I could agree.
Thats not true. You simply cannot allow the opposition to run at your defence time and again. Our midfield gave them not protection at all. And its been the case even in the chelsea game. Yes, the defence was poor on the night but to say that it was unprotectable and the game would have been the same with keane and vieira in midfield is bollox.
The Chelsea game was weird it was littered with errors and general poor play.
Carrick is not a Makele or Ramirez who can scoot around a pitch for 90 mins at full pelt. He's like Busquets.
Carrick is not a Makele or Ramirez who can scoot around a pitch for 90 mins at full pelt. He's like Busquets.
Interesting that when Carrick plays the safe game and solidifies the defense, he's criticized for not playing an adventurous game and for playing sideways passes. In the last game against Basle he did the opposite i.e his passing was good and he was more mobile than usual, but he is still getting the blame.
Whole defense especially Rio and Fabio plus Anderson should be blamed more for this horror performance.
Whole defense especially Rio and Fabio plus Anderson should be blamed more for this horror performance.
Only not nearly as good, of course.
You missed Evra.
One man can create a chance and score out of nothing but 1 man cannot prop up a team defending badly.
The 'midfield sweeper' role that he played against Basel looks best suited to him.
I think everyone knows there is a happy medium. Obviously all 4 defenders have to take a massive chunk of the blame, as do Carrick, Young, Valencia and Anderson. The only thing I would say is that out of those four most would have expected Carrick to be the most defensive/protective.
He is bound to be criticised if his passing is adventurous and effective but he is inept defensively, likewise he'll be criticised if he just acts like a centre back and is very regressive (Evra/Fabio/Rafael have the same curse, they play in a position where they have to find a good balance between their offensive and defensive games).
Well that isthe point finneh, he was! It is impossible to protect the centre halves, when he had to keep on covering the full back areas. Time and again, Carrick or one of the centre halves had to cover the full back areas leaving us light in the middle.
Carrick can't be in 2 places at once, had he not covered the full back areas, the centre halves would have had to do it, again leaving us light in the middle.
I accept that the whole team defended poorly, but Carrick actually did as much as he could do on the night imo. Any specific criticism should go to the full backs, who time after time completely abandoned their defensive duties in favour of attacking.
Have Carrick and Cleverley played together yet? I think they could form a good partnership.
I disagree, I thought he had a good offensive game but was anonymous (like Anderson/Fabio/Evra/Jones) defensively. It was almost as if everyone had been told "we'll be fine with just Rio at the back, everyone else has licence to go forward at any opportunity". If Fergie did say that (which I doubt) then Carrick/Anderson both had good games, otherwise our defensive midfielder will take joint and several liability like the others. The whole team had a shocker defensively, I am certainly not singling out Carrick and would lambast anyone who did.
It actually works the other way also. There are a (large) group of people that say he plays decent-well irrespective. If he does nothing progressive, gifts a few passes to the opposition 30 yards out and generally looks like a scared schoolboy, the stats come out saying he had 95% pass success rate and his ability to read the game and shield the defence get spouted ad verbatim. Then when he plays offensively and disregards his defensive duties everyone else has had a nightmare and Carrick can't do it all on his "own".
Carrick was Cleverley's partner for his first came for United in central midfield, against the Chicago Fire in pre-season. I was there
Diouf and Obertan didn't do a good job of making themselves available, neither did Berbatov or Welbeck till about the 30th minute, so there was really nowhere to go but back, or try a hollywood ball.
We were beat that half 1-0, from a set piece Jones was beaten to the header in his first game as well, I believe.
They both looked poor, not much to go by.
This thread / argument boils my blood.
Michael Carrick was signed 5 years ago to "replace" the most influential player I have ever seen in Roy Keane. Throughout these 5 years we have also seen Paul Scholes gradually take a step back further and further each season. Durinng these 5 years Micheal Carrick has played more games than any other midfielder at the club.
I think most would agree that Scholesy and Keano are two of the greatest players to ever play for United.
Now I like Carrick but I wouldn’t dream of compairing him as an individual player to either of those two. However, lets look at the facts. In Carricks 5 years we have won 4 premiership titles, missed out on the other by a point. We have won the champions league and reached the final on two other occaisions (being beaten by reputably the best football team ever). Despite the cup being low priority these days we've been finalists and got to the semi's.
Therefore in term of league titles and champions league accomplishments the last 5 years have been the most successful 5 years in the clubs history. We have performed consistently at the very top for 5 years on the bounce.
Now don’t get me wrong, I am not claiming Carrick has dragged us there ala keane. I also appreciate that in rio and vida we have had the best defensive partnership I have seen. At the other end we have head rooney, ronaldo, tevez etc etc. But Micheal Carrick has played in the vast majority of games in that 5 year period. Top coaches tell us time and time again how winning games at the top level ishighly dependant on controlling the midfield.
Carrick has his faults. He doesn’t "charge around" nor does he smash half a dozen 25 yarders into the top corner per season. But surley to god he deserves a litle bit of credit for being our "first choice" midfielder in the most successful 5 years of our clubs history.
Michael Carrick was signed 5 years ago to "replace" the most influential player I have ever seen in Roy Keane. Throughout these 5 years we have also seen Paul Scholes gradually take a step back further and further each season. Durinng these 5 years Micheal Carrick has played more games than any other midfielder at the club.
I think most would agree that Scholesy and Keano are two of the greatest players to ever play for United.
Now I like Carrick but I wouldn’t dream of compairing him as an individual player to either of those two. However, lets look at the facts. In Carricks 5 years we have won 4 premiership titles, missed out on the other by a point. We have won the champions league and reached the final on two other occaisions (being beaten by reputably the best football team ever). Despite the cup being low priority these days we've been finalists and got to the semi's.
Therefore in term of league titles and champions league accomplishments the last 5 years have been the most successful 5 years in the clubs history. We have performed consistently at the very top for 5 years on the bounce.
Now don’t get me wrong, I am not claiming Carrick has dragged us there ala keane. I also appreciate that in rio and vida we have had the best defensive partnership I have seen. At the other end we have head rooney, ronaldo, tevez etc etc. But Micheal Carrick has played in the vast majority of games in that 5 year period. Top coaches tell us time and time again how winning games at the top level ishighly dependant on controlling the midfield.
Carrick has his faults. He doesn’t "charge around" nor does he smash half a dozen 25 yarders into the top corner per season. But surley to god he deserves a litle bit of credit for being our "first choice" midfielder in the most successful 5 years of our clubs history.
Awaits 'he's still shit' comments.
As you said BF, when it comes to Carrick's contribution over the past 5 years, his detractors will always cite our success over this period has been in spite of him being there and other players carrying the team.
It matters not that we've seen how Carrick or combinations of our CM have been poor even against so called lesser sides, that our famed players that have carried us to glory over the last 5 years have not been able to overcome that in certain games. That it is that consistency in CM where maybe we haven't been the shining light but, has been solid and stable enough to provide not only the platform for our attacking displays but, in many cases also been integral to our defensive solidity.
He may not be world class but, no one is going to play as many games in CM for United if they aren't a class above the rest, which he certainly is.
It matters not that we've seen how Carrick or combinations of our CM have been poor even against so called lesser sides, that our famed players that have carried us to glory over the last 5 years have not been able to overcome that in certain games. That it is that consistency in CM where maybe we haven't been the shining light but, has been solid and stable enough to provide not only the platform for our attacking displays but, in many cases also been integral to our defensive solidity.
He may not be world class but, no one is going to play as many games in CM for United if they aren't a class above the rest, which he certainly is.
I have to agree with this (watched the match again yesterday night)
Carrick was immense against Basle. I couldn't find fault with his performance (if we're nitpicking, maybe he ballwatched for the ball that led to their penalty). This was the most adventurous I've seen him since the Chelsea game last season. He was everywhere. Covering for Evra and Fabio whenever they charged forward (someone needs to have a word with them), making runs, played a few through balls, his passes were always the right decision. Whenever necessary, he passed back or sideways, when he saw a chance, he passed forward
. Defensively he did as much as he could. Can't fault his performance at all. If Anderson pulled his weight more defensively, and the full backs weren't so careless, I don't think Basle would have carved us up as they did. The number of times they got through on goal was shocking, and like Apothesis alluded to, if a better finisher then Frei was on the end of those balls, we would have left with a crushing loss. The marking for the first goal was atrocious, Evra ballwatching and failing to cover the man coming at the back post. Second goal, were was everyone? We need to iron these mistakes out, before we meet teams in Europe who will punish us ruthlessly
I'm just assuming there's something I don't get about how Evra never stays in a defensive position.