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All time British/Irish fantasy draft, Final: Skizzo/Pat vs MJJ

Who will win assuming all players are at their peak?


  • Total voters
    26
  • Poll closed .

Pat_Mustard

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A never-nude? I thought he just liked cut-offs.
Ahead of phil neal,cohen and viv anderson? Dont think there is a lot between all four.
Neville seems to be the most mentioned in any debate alongside Armfield, but granted that Neal and Anderson are right up there. Cohen from what I've seen was not in their league, and he seemed to specialise in really poor crosses. Sorry EAP!

But equally, there doesn't seem to be much separating Wilson from the likes of Sansom, and Cole is the standout there.
 

Gio

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Personally I think All Time XI should not be played in drafts any more. The position, player style etc are far too dependant on what we read with just few or no supporting videos. If we want to know about players, let play a pre-60's game and all other games should only be post 60's only at best. (70's and later would be preferable).
Yeah I agree. It's difficult to make a case for anyone pre-TV era and their lack of voter-friendliness means they inevitably don't feature come the business end of a draft tournament. The only exception I can think of would be Uruguay's Andrade and that was largely because of Anto's huge selling effort on him.
 

Gio

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Arguably one of the most questionable credentials of all players in the draft.
On what basis? Interesting to know given his contemporaries and other stars of that era like Meredith weren't really questioned.
 

Annahnomoss

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On what basis? Interesting to know given his contemporaries and other stars of that era like Meredith weren't really questioned.
He played in the late 1800's and we've questioned some later players with equal credentials in this draft. It has been very random, Raisbeck has been sneaking through while others has been kicked out as weaknesses regardless of being the best of their era.

Has to be some consistency in the POV that is taken and the audience has already decided how.
 

harms

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As a responsible voter, I looked up all the players yesterday :lol:

I fully agree with Sherwood being a questionable one - and in no way Matthews vs Dunne is a biggest mismatch in the game. Dunne played on the highest level most of his career, his credentials speaks for himself. He is a level below Wilson (great character he is, was there a bigger write-up about him in the main thread?) and Neville, but still a brilliant player. Sherwood played only 4 seasons in the First division for a mid/low table club (Cardiff was 12,10,20 and 17, he left them for a Third Division club in 1956 and they were relegated in the next season). And he is up against one of the best players in history, who is a much more versatile player than Matthews.

Another one in question is Raisbeck - who played as a center-half, a position more similar to a modern day midfielder rather than a defender. Incredibly fast, yet, not very tall (178 cm) and, with Rio not being monstrous in the air (pretty good, but nothing out of the ordinary like Charles/Dean, in my opinion, he had other qualities), I can see Charles creating havoc there on set-pieces. Hell, even Law and Best would stand a chance against them in the air if you take in consideration that the delivery is from David Beckham.

The midfield is an interesting one. No doubt that MJJ is better there in terms of personnel, but I like the balance in Skizzo's team better - I wouldn't call Murdoch a box-to-box ala Keane/Robson/Souness, he wasn't that mobile, but I can see him almost as a deep-lying playmaker of sorts, his game was less about running and more about positioning and playmaking. Auld will work harder than Charlton here, despite the latter being a superior player (I found an interesting quote yesterday, the question was about the secret behind his almost non-existent injury record:
Bobby Charlton said:
Errr, I was a bit of a coward. I didn't always go where angels fear to tread. No. If I was asked to tackle somebody, by the time I made my mind up it was too late
Beckham will help more than Giggs or Matthews, I think, which means that in midfield the teams are pretty even.

So, it comes to defenders/attackers and how are they suited to cope with each other. Giggs and Matthews will be a great threat to Skizzo's fullbacks - Neville always struggled against fast and agile players and Matthews are just too good, even if there is nothing wrong with Dunne personally - but what's next? Neither were really known as a constant goalthreat themselves (both capable of moments of an individual brilliance though, no doubt about that, ask Vieira&co) so they will try and find Dean with their crosses mostly. And this is where Charles comes in - he, as much as Dean himself, is well-known as one of the very best headers of the ball in the history of British football, but he is 5 cm higher - I think he is the best man to try and stop Dean from scoring here.

On the other hand we have the real mismatch of the game, Best vs Sherwood (with Best equally capable of cutting in or running down the wing he will be a tougher opponent than Matthews), and a cheating Beckham who doesn't need to beat the best fullback on the pitch to make his deadly cross. It's good that Rio is covering for Sherwood and not Raisbeck, who isn't going to be threatened from Wilson's side, but he still is the most questionable player on the pitch (a shoehorned midfielder of sorts) and he is against arguably the best striker in the draft in Law.

The amount of MJJ's firepower is impressive though. And all those sires :lol: But in the end I went with balance. Great team though, @MJJ, I didn't like your team in the beginning, but you changed it completely and now it really is beautiful. You just needed to get rid of KKK :lol:
 
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Jammydodger7

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I'm finding it hard to seperate these, I'm tending to side with Skizzo however the one thing that's putting me off is Auld, I don't think he's good enough to play in the final.
 

harms

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From the Lancashire Evening Post on 6 January 1900 said:
Is Raisbeck better suited as full back?
Raisbeck’s half-back play is extolled to the skies by a good many critics. On the other hand there are not a few folk fully competent to express an opinion who have anything but a high idea of his fitness for the post.

For instance, one of the leading men in the game thinks that Liverpool would be well advised in removing him from the intermediate to the back division, holding the view that Raisbeck’s style of play, particularly his powerful defence, is far better suited to the position than to the one he occupies.

Raisbeck and Dunlop, he fancies, would be well-nigh an ideal pair. His idea is that Raisbeck rambles, and by his heavy kicking runs his forwards about too much.
 

MJJ

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thanks for posting this article and your thoughts above. regarding the article the full back position in the rolder era is the same as the centre back position nowdays so this lends credence to my view that he can do a good job at cb.

regarding Dixie he was much more than a good header of the ball his movement was exceptional and you. are forgetting chartlton. with the personel around him he is .going to score a goal and assist another
 

MJJ

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I'm finding it hard to seperate these, I'm tending to side with Skizzo however the one thing that's putting me off is Auld, I don't think he's good enough to play in the final.
I think my attack is better than his, Dixie is more clinical while Charlton is miles better than auld.

as a duo I will pick mathews and giggs over Beckham and best in a draft, with weak fullbacks. while robson and souness edge keane and murdoch.
 

MJJ

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On what basis? Interesting to know given his contemporaries and other stars of that era like Meredith weren't really questioned.
the same basis which requires my side to have two lholding midfielders instead of robson and souness.
 

harms

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thanks for posting this article and your thoughts above. regarding the article the full back position in the rolder era is the same as the centre back position nowdays so this lends credence to my view that he can do a good job at cb.

regarding Dixie he was much more than a good header of the ball his movement was exceptional and you. are forgetting chartlton. with the personel around him he is .going to score a goal and assist another
I'm not sure if this article is helping your case or not tbf - he definitely had the qualities needed (if the press asked this question even in his time), but stylistically he wasn't a CB, but a player with a need to always be in action - that's why he was playing as a half-back and not full-back. I'd say that he is better suited for a DM role or a libero of sorts - but you can not afford the luxury of changing the formation for him due to all the big names of yours.

It's more of a question of him being good enough in not his natural position in the final - that's why nobody asked those questions before. You need your defence to work like clockwork - and it's fair to say that Raisbeck can be a wrong detail here.


Regarding Dixie-Charlton/Moore-Charles, they will get their chances, no matter how good the opposition is, but it is as good as it gets, that's what I was saying. I fully expect both team to score here - at the very least one goal each, but, with the attacking talent here, I'd say something like 3:2 or 4:3 (or the other way around, depends on who you are voting for) is more likely- not the modern scoreline.
 

Pat_Mustard

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A never-nude? I thought he just liked cut-offs.
I know I'm biased here, but that was legitimately an excellent analysis @harms . Cheers!

Regarding Raisbeck, I've said all along that everyone will have their own idea about how to judge eras in relation to each other. I just think its obvious that football circa-1900 was in its infancy, and that there was no global or historical benchmarks by which to assess players' quality. My opinion is that the game was surely, surely far less advanced technically and tactically than it would become. Given that there's also substantial doubt as to whether the fella is even suited to the role of modern centre back, imo there's just no body of evidence to support the idea that he comes anywhere close to Moore or Charles (or Rio for that matter).

There is a fair bit more evidence from which to assess Sherwood, and imo it seems clear he had an unremarkable career and is of a significantly lower calibre than any other full back on the pitch.

They're the two players on the pitch that can most credibly be identified as weak links. MJJ, and one or two others I think, have mentioned Auld, but he's proven on an entirely different scale to either of those two. Key player in an extremely successful side domestically and continentally, a goal every three games goalscorer from midfield, and a man of the match performance in a European Cup final against great opposition. No, he's not Bobby Charlton, but he was a fantastic player in his own right, and I'd venture, a much better player than Sherwood.
 

MJJ

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I'm not sure if this article is helping your case or not tbf - he definitely had the qualities needed (if the press asked this question even in his time), but stylistically he wasn't a CB, but a player with a need to always be in action - that's why he was playing as a half-back and not full-back. I'd say that he is better suited for a DM role or a libero of sorts - but you can not afford the luxury of changing the formation for him due to all the big names of yours.

It's more of a question of him being good enough in not his natural position in the final - that's why nobody asked those questions before. You need your defence to work like clockwork - and it's fair to say that Raisbeck can be a wrong detail here.


Regarding Dixie-Charlton/Moore-Charles, they will get their chances, no matter how good the opposition is, but it is as good as it gets, that's what I was saying. I fully expect both team to score here - at the very least one goal each, but, with the attacking talent here, I'd say something like 3:2 or 4:3 (or the other way around, depends on who you are voting for) is more likely- not the modern scoreline.
and in a match with loads of chances surely you back the side with more clinical strikers as the recent united Liverpool match demonstrated.
 

MJJ

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you don't get into Welsh all time xi and get described as the only fullback to have controlled mathews by having an unremarkable career.
 

Pat_Mustard

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A never-nude? I thought he just liked cut-offs.
you don't get into Welsh all time xi and get described as the only fullback to have controlled mathews by having an unremarkable career.
He spent all but four seasons of his career in the lower divisions. In the context of an all-time draft that's pretty damning.

Robbie Keane gets into virtually every all-time Irish XI and had the much better club career. I have no doubt that you'd be highlighting him as a weak link if we'd selected him.
 

Pat_Mustard

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A never-nude? I thought he just liked cut-offs.
and in a match with loads of chances surely you back the side with more clinical strikers as the recent united Liverpool match demonstrated.
There's not a single striker in this draft, and very few in the world ever, that can be said to be "more clinical" than Law as if its a fact.


He was brilliant, as an all-around footballer as well as a finisher. He merits that statue outside Old Trafford every bit as much as Charlton and Best. I have far more confidence in Charles and Moore's ability to limit Dean than Rio and Raisbeck's ability to limit Law.

EDIT: That video is well worth a watch for anyone, just to get a flavour of how well-rounded and unpredictable he was. That goal from 1:32 is just beautiful, and its one of many that could be picked out.
 

harms

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and in a match with loads of chances surely you back the side with more clinical strikers as the recent united Liverpool match demonstrated.
What the hell, mate :lol:


Seriously though - I'm not sure that Dean is more clinical than Law. You have Charlton, he has Best. It's pretty even for me.
 

MJJ

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Dean scored 349 goals in 399 games for everton compared to laws 171 in 309 appearances and you guys aren't sure if he is more clinical?

cmon one guy averages slightly higher than a goal every two games while the other almost a goal a game.
 

MJJ

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He spent all but four seasons of his career in the lower divisions. In the context of an all-time draft that's pretty damning.

Robbie Keane gets into virtually every all-time Irish XI and had the much better club career. I have no doubt that you'd be highlighting him as a weak link if we'd selected him.
and captained Wales over Charles, lofthouse and bryne while being cited as the toughest opponent of the best English winger.

come back to me when that applies to Robbie Keane or dunne for that matter.

still waiting for a good performance by him against a great winger btw.
 

MJJ

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not to mention Dean scoring 18 in 16 matches for England compared to laws 30 in 55.

in fact Dean career stats are 390 goals in 449 matches vs 227 in 485.

there is no question that Dean is better at taking his chances compared to law.
 

harms

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Dean scored 349 goals in 399 games for everton compared to laws 171 in 309 appearances and you guys aren't sure if he is more clinical?

cmon one guy averages slightly higher than a goal every two games while the other almost a goal a game.
249 in 449. Take a guess, who am I talking about? Looks like a pretty average finisher compared to Dean.

You can't seriously compare their records without looking at the level of competition.
 

harms

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and captained Wales over Charles, lofthouse and bryne while being cited as the toughest opponent of the best English winger.

come back to me when that applies to Robbie Keane or dunne for that matter.

still waiting for a good performance by him against a great winger btw.
Weren't Lofthouse and Byrne English? I was somehow under that impression. On the phone, so it's difficult to check myself
 

MJJ

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249 in 449. Take a guess, who am I talking about? Looks like a pretty average finisher compared to Dean.

You can't seriously compare their records without looking at the level of the competition.
ruud van nisteerooy? and yes he does. that's why Dean is an all time great.

trust me on this as I spent the last round looking for evidence to discredit Dean. no other striker of his era or anyother comes close to matching his scoring record.
 

MJJ

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Weren't Lofthouse and Byrne English? I was somehow under that impression. On the phone, so it's difficult to check myself
Weren't Lofthouse and Byrne English? I was somehow under that impression. On the phone, so it's difficult to check myself
:lol: lofthouse was, got confused there.

okay he captained them over Charles and whoever they had upfront.
 

Annahnomoss

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not to mention Dean scoring 18 in 16 matches for England compared to laws 30 in 55.

in fact Dean career stats are 390 goals in 449 matches vs 227 in 485.

there is no question that Dean is better at taking his chances compared to law.
That is just pointless. Dean's record came in a time just after an offside rule change and players scored an abnormal amount of goals then which is why a majority of "highest goals blalba" was set in that era.

Can't compare it as simplistic as that. Dean also scored something like one goal after the age of 21 for the NT. Wasn't picked for the national team after 25 anymore.
 
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MJJ

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That is just pointless. Dean's record came in a time just after an offside rule change and players scored an abnormal amount of goals then which is why a majority of "highest goals blalba" was set in that era.

Can't compare it as simplistic as that.
who from that era comes close to matching his record?
 

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That is just pointless. Dean's record came in a time just after an offside rule change and players scored an abnormal amount of goals then which is why a majority of "highest goals blalba" was set in that era.

Can't compare it as simplistic as that.
who from that era comes close to matching his record?

also since you are here, thoughts on united barca 84 match since you think my midfield isn't balanced.
 

Pat_Mustard

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A never-nude? I thought he just liked cut-offs.
Dean scored 349 goals in 399 games for everton compared to laws 171 in 309 appearances and you guys aren't sure if he is more clinical?

cmon one guy averages slightly higher than a goal every two games while the other almost a goal a game.
A different, higher-scoring era for one thing. Or would you have Hughie Gallacher, Ted Drake, Tom Waring and Dave Halliday above Denis Law as well?
 

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:lol: he joined everton at the age of 18, scoring 349 goals for them. and you are saying he scored one goal after the age of 21.
.what are you smoking :lol:

there is being biased and there is this.
 

Annahnomoss

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who from that era comes close to matching his record?

also since you are here, thoughts on united barca 84 match since you think my midfield isn't balanced.
Middlesbrough's George Camsell, who holds the highest goals-to-games ratio for England, had scored 59 league goals the previous season.

So the year before Dean scored his legendary 60 goals, someone who wasn't picked in this draft scored 59.
 

Annahnomoss

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:lol: he joined everton at the age of 18, scoring 349 goals for them. and you are saying he scored one goal after the age of 21.
.what are you smoking :lol:

there is being biased and there is this.
For England that is. Sadly true too.
 

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Dave Halliday (156 goals in 166 games for Sunderland)
Hughie Gallacher (133 in 160 for Newcastle)
Jack Bowers (167 in 203 for Derby)
other than bower none of them sustained that record over a longer period even bower played half the game that Dean did.

its not two three seasons immediately after when everyone was scoring goals but 400 games at nearly a goal a game!
 

Pat_Mustard

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A never-nude? I thought he just liked cut-offs.
other than bower none of them sustained that record over a longer period even bower played half the game that Dean did.

its not two three seasons immediately after when everyone was scoring goals but 400 games at nearly a goal a game!
You asked

who from that era comes close to matching his record?
There's 3 that I could list within a few minutes, and 160-203 games is hardly a small sample size.
 

Pat_Mustard

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A never-nude? I thought he just liked cut-offs.
by his record I didn't mean his goal scoring ratio but rather sustained goals over his entire career.
Why? Every draft that's been run here judges on peak. While we're at it we don't we just write Best off as he wasn't around as long as Giggs. The fact is there were several strikers around then that were scoring at a similar rate to Dean. That Dean sustained it longer than they did may make him better than them. It doesn't make him better than Denis Law.
 

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Why? Every draft that's been run here judges on peak. While we're at it we don't we just write Best off as he wasn't around as long as Giggs. The fact is there were several strikers around then that were scoring at a similar rate to Dean. That Dean sustained it longer than they did may make him better than them. It doesn't make him better than Denis Law.
it shows that he didn't just score goals because of the changes in the law(:p) but because he was a quality striker. the best ever in britian history.

wiki describes torres as a center forward, am on mobile so can't really check if he was a right winger or not.