All time British/Irish fantasy draft, Final: Skizzo/Pat vs MJJ

[Pat_Mustard]

it shows that he didn't just score goals because of the changes in the law() but because he was a quality striker. the best ever in britian history.

wiki describes torres as a center forward, am on mobile so can't really check if he was a right winger or not.

He started as a right-sided forward against Utd. Coluna also drifted out there occasionally. All in all it wasn't a bad attacking line up that Dunne dealt with that day. A tad better than what Sherwood was lining out against in the second division for Cardiff for the majority of his career at any rate

I've never disputed that Dean was a quality striker. You stated unequivocally that he was more clinical than Law, citing his superior goalscoring ratio, then switched your argument to longevity when it was pointed out that several other largely forgotten strikers from Dean's era achieved similar ratios.

 

[MJJ]

and because his peak lasted for an abnormally long time he maintained that ratio for 400 plus games, not just a few good years

 

[MJJ]

He started as a right-sided forward against Utd. Coluna also drifted out there occasionally. All in all it wasn't a bad attacking line up that Dunne dealt with that day. A tad better than what Sherwood was lining out against in the second division for Cardiff for the majority of his career at any rate

I've never disputed that Dean was a quality striker. You stated unequivocally that he was more clinical than Law, citing his superior goalscoring ratio, then switched your argument to longevity when it was pointed out that several other largely forgotten strikers from Dean's era achieved similar ratios.

cheapshot.

the only reason I switched to longevity was to prove that dean didn't just achieve those goals due to a change in laws but because he was thAt good.

 

[Pat_Mustard]

cheapshot.

the only reason I switched to longevity was to prove that dean didn't just achieve those goals due to a change in laws but because he was thAt good.

Maybe!

On the second point, I still maintain that it looks suspiciously like you changed to longevity because all of a sudden it was shown that several of Dean's contemporaries achieved comparable ratios.

 

[MJJ]

Maybe!

On the second point, I still maintain that it looks suspiciously like you changed to longevity because all of a sudden it was shown that several of Dean's contemporaries achieved comparable ratios.

maybe.

nah, in all honesty I actually meant his whole career. like I said I was looking to discredit Dean in the last match, there were some false rumours(Liverpool forums) of him scoring because of the no offside rule but then found that due to the changes in the offside rule in that era team scored in average four goals a game.

I didn't bring it up because I found that Dean maintained his ratio through out his career not just that period like all the others. will post the detailed anaylsis of his stats tomorrow from office as can't do anything from mobile.

 

[Annahnomoss]

maybe.

nah, in all honesty I actually meant his whole career. like I said I was looking to discredit Dean in the last match, there were some false rumours(Liverpool forums) of him scoring because of the no offside rule but then found that due to the changes in the offside rule in that era team scored in average four goals a game.

I didn't bring it up because I found that Dean maintained his ratio through out his career not just that period like all the others. will post the detailed anaylsis of his stats tomorrow from office as can't do anything from mobile.

Dean was the top scorer of the season twice in the top flight and both these times were just after the offside rule change. Like said, his record was basically tied by a rather unknown player just a year earlier and Dean edged it out with one goal. He scored just one NT goal after the age of 21 and he didn't play at all after he was 25.

There is still no doubt that Dean edges Law in terms of being a goalscorer, but in terms of a draft Law's quite short goalscoring peak holds weight.

Dean scored goals after the league got used to the offside rule change but he was never again the top scorer. In terms of a career average Dean is a different beast though keeping up his figures so consistently. But in terms of a draft where the peak is the only thing that matters it is a different, and very even story.

 

[MJJ]

so so biased.

 

[Mani]

Goals comparison form Attacking and MF

Law- 303 goals from 602 AP
Dixie-429 Goals / 425 app

Best 253 / 705 GAMES
Giggs 168 /963 GAMES

S.Matthews - 80 /783 APP
Becks - 129 /719

B. charlton- 260 /807
B.Robson- 115/ 568 apps
Souness - 92 /673

Auld -90/328
keane-57/473
Murdock- 68/386 app

 

[Skizzo]

Goals comparison form Attacking and MF

Law- 303 goals from 602 AP
Dixie-429 Goals / 425 app

Best 253 / 705 GAMES
Giggs 168 /963 GAMES

S.Matthews - 80 /783 APP
Becks - 129 /719

B. charlton- 260 /807
B.Robson- 115/ 568 apps
Souness - 92 /673

Auld -90/328
keane-57/473
Murdock- 68/386 app

So that shows that we basically have a similar goal scoring threat, while offering a much better defence.

Dean could link up play also, but his peers regarded his heading ability as his greatest asset, and scored a third of his goals as such. He loses that advantage here against Charles. You argued last game that Rio Ferdinand wouldn't struggle against Dean...now you flip around and say he will trouble Moore and Charles.

This might be a case of you shooting yourself in the foot since you argued against his advantages so vehemently last game.

 

[Skizzo]

That line was aimed more at annah than you, as he was questioning the ability of sherwood. Not whether he can deal with best or not. I havent yet found any unreasonable claims from you other than saying wilson is unknown.

The Wilson comment was an oversight in my part. Not sure why I had him confused with someone else....probably why I shouldn't do write ups at 2am

That being said, the claims you have made about your wingers being superior to my fullbacks...but yours would be able to do a job on mine..quite simply...no.

You claim yourself that both of your full backs are renowned for their slide tackles. George Best would love that. More than Kevin Keegan would have loved it if he beat United. How many times do you think Best will swivel, watch your defender slide on by, then run on to goal? I reckon a fair bit. Your wingers may get a bit of the same look in...but I know I'd rather have Charles and Moore covering my fullbacks. And that's no bias.

 

[Skizzo]

I'm finding it hard to seperate these, I'm tending to side with Skizzo however the one thing that's putting me off is Auld, I don't think he's good enough to play in the final.

As a stand alone player, I understand if you would hesitate, especially with mjj throwing out how all his players are apparently better than mine. But we stuck with a tactic that not only allows a few individuals to flourish, but has actual tried and tested partnerships. The understanding Auld and Murdoch have is invaluable, just ask Inter., and the Leeds utd midfield that didn't get a look in against them.

While I appreciate the qualities of the opposition...and their appeal to the scan voters of slamming some star names into one team...we stuck with teams, partnerships, and units that proved themselves at the highest level of various competitions.

 

[Skizzo]

I don't see much difference in both teams. Like Pat's midfield duo slightly better, but Beckham without Charles takes away some thing from Pat's attack too and MJJ wings are a shade better. Let me think some more.

Notice you voted mjj, just wondering what your final determination was?

In attack, we have the greater winger in Best. An actual goal scoring winger at that. We have the greater threat from set pieces, direct and indirect.

His midfield duo may be slightly better, but our defensive pairing is far superior, which nullifies any perceived advantage his attack may have.

Last game mjj argued Dean couldn't score on his defense because of Ferdinand....but now he will against Charles AND Moore?

Edit: not to mention...Law was fantastic in the air as well. So it's not likeBeckham suddenly turns into Valencia with crosses here

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

It was a tight game. I just felt the axis of Robson-Charlton-Dean is superior to Murdoch-Auld-Law. Yes you have a far better defence, but games like this will depend on one off genius attacking moments and I think his axis has higher probability of giving that.

 

[Skizzo]

It was a tight game. I just felt the axis of Robson-Charlton-Dean is superior to Murdoch-Auld-Law. Yes you have a far better defence, but games like this will depend on one off genius attacking moments and I think his axis has higher probability of giving that.

Fair enough lol. I suppose you made your mind up... Although the axis of moore and Charles shuts him down more than raisbeck and ferdinand can stop mine.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Fair enough lol. I suppose you made your mind up... Although the axis of moore and Charles shuts him down more than raisbeck and ferdinand can stop mine.

There's no 'making up mind' here. Everytime I look at pics, I think of different plays that can be made. These tight games give me a headache

Best, definitely will be one of your main outputs, but I really don't see Beckham/Auld or Beckham Law being that deadly. Flip Side, Giggs/Charlton or Matthews/Charlton having some joy.

The easy option out would be a draw. I still hope this goes to penos.

 

[Skizzo]

There's no 'making up mind' here. Everytime I look at pics, I think of different plays that can be made. These tight games give me a headache

Best, definitely will be one of your main outputs, but I really don't see Beckham/Auld or Beckham Law being that deadly. Flip Side, Giggs/Charlton or Matthews/Charlton having some joy.

The easy option out would be a draw. I still hope this goes to penos.

A tight enough game that a Beckham set piece could be the difference?

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

A tight enough game that a Beckham set piece could be the difference?

You're making me regret my decision!

 

[Skizzo]

You're making me regret my decision!

Just mentioning some things you may have overlooked

 

[MJJ]

You're making me regret my decision!

wait till I wake up in the morning. you made the right call will explain why.

 

[BigDunc9]

Middlesbrough's George Camsell, who holds the highest goals-to-games ratio for England, had scored 59 league goals the previous season.

So the year before Dean scored his legendary 60 goals, someone who wasn't picked in this draft scored 59.

Them 59 where scored in the 2nd division though. The closest someone has got to Dean in the top flight is 49.

 

[MJJ]

Them 59 where scored in the 2nd division though. The closest someone has got to Dean in the top flight is 49.

ahh thanks for that, couldn't check from mobile. trust annah to leave that detail out

 

[Skizzo]

ahh thanks for that, couldn't check from mobile. trust annah to leave that detail out

I wouldn't call someone else out on bias after some of the things you've said in here

 

[MJJ]

I wouldn't call someone else out on bias after some of the things you've said in here

I am supposed to be biased that's why my vote is disregarded

 

[Skizzo]

I am supposed to be biased that's why my vote is disregarded

You're not supposed to be anything you can have your team and still be objective. You've made some ridiculous claims in here.

 

[Mani]

So that shows that we basically have a similar goal scoring threat, while offering a much better defence.

Dean could link up play also, but his peers regarded his heading ability as his greatest asset, and scored a third of his goals as such. He loses that advantage here against Charles. You argued last game that Rio Ferdinand wouldn't struggle against Dean...now you flip around and say he will trouble Moore and Charles.

This might be a case of you shooting yourself in the foot since you argued against his advantages so vehemently last game.

I don't see it even, goal threat from the MF comprise of Charlton,Souness and Robson is much higher compared to
Auld /keane/Murdoch.

 

[Skizzo]

I don't see it even, goal threat from the MF comprise of Charlton,Souness and Robson is much higher compared to
Auld /keane/Murdoch.

Of course you don't see it as even.

It's all relative when you look at the overall picture and tactics. Charles and Dean realistically cancel each other out aerially. Charles and Moore is the best defence in the draft, and will match any physical play you have with Dean, and will be organized to limit (not completely stop) runs in from Charlton. Who himself even said that he won't be looking to get stuck in.

Your central defender isn't even recommended to play there...and that's who's going to help stop Best and Law? I'm yet to hear what your team does after Best beats your "slide tackling" fullback and heads towards goal.

 

[MJJ]

You're not supposed to be anything you can have your team and still be objective. You've made some ridiculous claims in here.

like?

 

[MJJ]

Of course you don't see it as even.

It's all relative when you look at the overall picture and tactics. Charles and Dean realistically cancel each other out aerially. Charles and Moore is the best defence in the draft, and will match any physical play you have with Dean, and will be organized to limit (not completely stop) runs in from Charlton. Who himself even said that he won't be looking to get stuck in.

Your central defender isn't even recommended to play there...and that's who's going to help stop Best and Law? I'm yet to hear what your team does after Best beats your "slide tackling" fullback and heads towards goal.

why do you assume best will beat him? rather than your hypotheticals there is proof that Sherwood kept mathews quiet and best wasn't that much a better dribbler than mathews to the extent that my defender will constantly struggle.

but I have rio Ferdinand a defender knowned for his pace positioning and one who never fouled to cover in that scenario as well.

 

[Skizzo]

like?

Given that mathews described sherwood as his toughest opponent, I think he will be better faced to challenge best than dunne on mathews. From what I have read sherwood was very quick and tactictally astute so I wouldnt expect best to have as easy a time as mathews on the other end.

the quality of sherwood and whether he could deal with best or not, now. By all accounts he is more than capable of doing just that.

I think my attack is better than his, Dixie is more clinical while Charlton is miles better than auld.

as a duo I will pick mathews and giggs over Beckham and best in a draft, with weak fullbacks. while robson and souness edge keane and murdoch.

and in a match with loads of chances surely you back the side with more clinical strikers as the recent united Liverpool match demonstrated.

I'd actually back the team with the better defence.

trust me on this as I spent the last round looking for evidence to discredit Dean. no other striker of his era or anyother comes close to matching his scoring record.

Yet you still said he wouldn't score on your defence...but he's banked on to score 1 and assist 1 against the best CB pair in the draft?

ahh thanks for that, couldn't check from mobile. trust annah to leave that detail out

You conveniently point out someone doesn't match up to Dean's scoring exploits because they did it in a lower league...but conveniently ignore the fact that your starting defender played the majority of his career in that lower division?

 

[Skizzo]

why do you assume best will beat him? rather than your hypotheticals there is proof that Sherwood kept mathews quiet and best wasn't that much a better dribbler than mathews to the extent that my defender will constantly struggle.

but I have rio Ferdinand a defender knowned for his pace positioning and one who never fouled to cover in that scenario as well.

Rather than your hypotheticals about how your team will run rings around mine...let's look at my team..which has players proven to play together at the highest level and win things together...not just thrown together and telling everyone how they'll rip me to shreds.

Or do we only ignore hypotheticals when I make a (somehow unreasonable?) claim that George Best will beat your full back who was renowned for his slide tackles. Quite the claim to fame there, will definitely be able to stop George Best.

 

[MJJ]

I'd actually back the team with the better defence.



Yet you still said he wouldn't score on your defence...but he's banked on to score 1 and assist 1 against the best CB pair in the draft?



You conveniently point out someone doesn't match up to Dean's scoring exploits because they did it in a lower league...but conveniently ignore the fact that your starting defender played the majority of his career in that lower division?

erm bigdunc and I aren't the same person? I didn't poing that out he did.


backing the team with a better defense is wrong if you are admitting they were be loads of chances for both side I. e. the defense has already failed to do their job. then it'd all about who can take their chances.

I expect best to beat Sherwood but like I said it won't be a regular thing that you are saying it will be. you keep stressing the third division point but he was Wales captain as well, part of the all time Wales xi and proven against mathews.

on the other hand have heard that Robson and souness aren't defensively sound, my wc winning fullback is an unknown, one of the best players of the 19 century is one of the arguable pick of the draft, dixie only scored due to the offside rule and never scored past the age of 21(before I laughed at this and annah added the NT bit)

oh yeah and my midfield isn't balanced.

 

[MJJ]

Rather than your hypotheticals about how your team will run rings around mine...let's look at my team..which has players proven to play together at the highest level and win things together...not just thrown together and telling everyone how they'll rip me to shreds.

Or do we only ignore hypotheticals when I make a (somehow unreasonable?) claim that George Best will beat your full back who was renowned for his slide tackles. Quite the claim to fame there, will definitely be able to stop George Best.

auld and Murdoch played together in a very different setup than the one you are employing here so you can't just keep talking about that as an advantage.

 

[Skizzo]

erm bigdunc and I aren't the same person? I didn't poing that out he did.


backing the team with a better defense is wrong if you are admitting they were be loads of chances for both side I. e. the defense has already failed to do their job. then it'd all about who can take their chances.

I expect best to beat Sherwood but like I said it won't be a regular thing that you are saying it will be. you keep stressing the third division point but he was Wales captain as well, part of the all time Wales xi and proven against mathews.

I know bigdunc pointed it out...and you laughed and commented how it was convenient that @Annahnomoss forgot to mention that. You didn't agree?

I never admitted there would be "loads of chances" for both sides. I just said in a game where both teams have equal chances, I'd back the team that is able to do the better job limiting the clearer chances.

When he does beat Sherwood, your central pairing doesn't instill as much confidence in stopping the threat. Glad we finally managed to agree that Sherwood wouldn't "deal" with Best.

 

[MJJ]

Rather than your hypotheticals about how your team will run rings around mine...let's look at my team..which has players proven to play together at the highest level and win things together...not just thrown together and telling everyone how they'll rip me to shreds.

Or do we only ignore hypotheticals when I make a (somehow unreasonable?) claim that George Best will beat your full back who was renowned for his slide tackles. Quite the claim to fame there, will definitely be able to stop George Best.

auld and Murdoch played together in a very different setup than the one you are employing here so you can't just keep talking about that as an advantage.

its a draft, if the players playing together was such a key point you wouldn't have dropped Lennox for best. bit hypocritical saying my players are thrown together when you gave up on your proven partnership the first chance you got.

 

[Skizzo]

auld and Murdoch played together in a very different setup than the one you are employing here so you can't just keep talking about that as an advantage.

They played in a 2 man midfield with 2 wingers, and 2 forwards.

I have 2 wingers, one of which is more defensive than Johnstone, giving them more cover. And also with Roy Keane, who eases the workload on Murdoch and Auld, giving them more chance to influence the game like they did when there was only 2 of them there.

 

[Skizzo]

auld and Murdoch played together in a very different setup than the one you are employing here so you can't just keep talking about that as an advantage.

its a draft, if the players playing together was such a key point you wouldn't have dropped Lennox for best. bit hypocritical saying my players are thrown together when you gave up on your proven partnership the first chance you got.

If I put Best in for Beckham, "I lose that partnership too"...it's a matter of balancing the team, rather than throwing the most attacking players in there.

And by putting Best in, I now have a partnership with Law, so if you want to use your idea of me losing partnerships..it's not really true since I actually added an extra one

And it was hardly the first opportunity since I only added Best after the last game

 

[MJJ]

I know bigdunc pointed it out...and you laughed and commented how it was convenient that @Annahnomoss forgot to mention that. You didn't agree?

I never admitted there would be "loads of chances" for both sides. I just said in a game where both teams have equal chances, I'd back the team that is able to do the better job limiting the clearer chances.

When he does beat Sherwood, your central pairing doesn't instill as much confidence in stopping the threat. Glad we finally managed to agree that Sherwood wouldn't "deal" with Best.

agreeing with someone and bringing it up yourself is different. you accused me of doing the latter not the former.

and? harms said there will be loads of chances and I told him in that case he should back the more clinical side.

we do? best isn't going to make a complete mockery of sherwood just like Sherwood isn't going to nullify best. your central defenders might be better but they are also dealing with Charlton not auld.

Beckham Is playing deep, you basically have best and law against my defense vs giggs mathews Charlton and dean vs yours.

not to mention who is stretching the pitch for your side? defending a crowded middle is easier than having giggs mathews racing past you on the outside.

 

[MJJ]

They played in a 2 man midfield with 2 wingers, and 2 forwards.

I have 2 wingers, one of which is more defensive than Johnstone, giving them more cover. And also with Roy Keane, who eases the workload on Murdoch and Auld, giving them more chance to influence the game like they did when there was only 2 of them there.

so completely different setup yeah? glad we agree..

and how do you lose the Lennox auld Murdoch partnership by putting best for Beckham? didn't get that.

why not get johnstone instead of best/Keane if partnerships matter that much.

 

[Skizzo]

agreeing with someone and bringing it up yourself is different. you accused me of doing the latter not the former.

and? harms said there will be loads of chances and I told him in that case he should back the more clinical side.

we do? best isn't going to make a complete mockery of sherwood just like Sherwood isn't going to nullify best. your central defenders might be better but they are also dealing with Charlton not auld.

Beckham Is playing deep, you basically have best and law against my defense vs giggs mathews Charlton and dean vs yours.

not to mention who is stretching the pitch for your side? defending a crowded middle is easier than having giggs mathews racing past you on the outside.

Yet you come back with this?

on the other hand have heard that Robson and souness aren't defensively sound, my wc winning fullback is an unknown, one of the best players of the 19 century is one of the arguable pick of the draft, dixie only scored due to the offside rule and never scored past the age of 21(before I laughed at this and annah added the NT bit)

oh yeah and my midfield isn't balanced.

One of those things I said, and I even retracted it and admitted the mistake I made. No problem pointing those out though do you?

Beckham is playing deep, doesn't mean he won't push up. Did he never push up for United or England? Plus you make it sound like my midfield is all sitting deep enough to not trouble your defence...but they aren't deep enough to trouble your attackers either? Are they just standing in the middle of the field watching you?

How come Giggs and Matthews are suddenly "racing past" my defence? But Best is still having a hard time with Sherwood?

 

[Skizzo]

so completely different setup yeah? glad we agree..

and how do you lose the Lennox auld Murdoch partnership by putting best for Beckham? didn't get that.

why not get johnstone instead of best/Keane if partnerships matter that much.

Beckham, Neville, Keane....like from the picture I posted up in the draft thread, and mentioned in the write up?