did I say you mention all of those things? there is a reason I was laughing at annahs comments earlier but none of yours or pat.
gotta get ready for office now, respond in a bit.
gotta get ready for office now, respond in a bit.
All time British/Irish fantasy draft, Final: Skizzo/Pat vs MJJ
- Thread starter crappycraperson
- Start date
-
In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik @Rood and Imran @Annihilate Now! start with the good news by celebrating Manchester United Women's emphatic FA Cup win over Spurs at Wembley and the future of manager Marc Skinner.
Then it's the bad news and the ever worsening form of our Men with losses to Arsenal and Palace.
Finally the main debate - ETH Out now or keep him until the end of the season - if not longer. Are you Team Nik or Team Imran?
even those three didn't play in a 4 3 3. Keane partnered with Veron and svholes was a relative disaster.
No worries, take your time
I should be around for a while unless the little one wakes up screaming 
@Barney you tease
What did he do?@Barney you tease
Voted me to 8-6...then I came back a couple of minutes later to 7-7. I'm guessing a mistake...the sly devil
Lets compare both teams for a bit.
Skizzo left flank consists of Best and Dunne who are up against Mathews and Sherwood. Both the wingers are considered the best in their position in the UK and will cause similar problems for the opposite fullbacks.
Skizzo right flank consists of Beckham and Neville who are up against Giggs and Wilson. All four of them are hard working players and proven at the highest level, while giggs and wilson have the pace and dribbling advantage. Beckham in particular is the best crosser on either team. The danger of beckhams crosses will be negated a bit by not having charles upfront but given law's excellence in the air I wouldnt call it a weakness per se. Giggs cutting inside or crossing it in works just as well for me with dean being one of the greatest header of the ball and charlton and him both waiting inside.
On the other hand, both mathews and giggs will stretch the pitch more than their opposite numbers which should allow room for dean and charlton to operate into.
The major difference between the team occurs in the middle. While I have the Ballon D'or Winner and Manchester United Legend Sir Bobby Charlton, skizzo has bertie auld. Charlton was known for his long range passing,shooting, dribbling and acceleration. Having room to operate here with the opposition not playing a specific DM and two wingers to stretch the pitch, he will be in his element. Scoring 249 goals in 758 matches, he is united's leading goal scorer and no doubt assisting loads as well.
His opposite number is a celtic midfielder bertie auld who scored only 90 goals through out his career and wasnt known as the most creative player either. In terms of AM, there is no comparison between which side will contribute to the attack more. Charlton is also better at roaming from his position and will cause havoc by moving wide and overloading a flank before slippin a through ball to dean as well.
In midfield, I have two of the greatest british box to box, Robson and Souness compared to Keane and Murdoch. In terms of the greatest box to box player out of the four, pool fans will argue Souness's case while united fans will be confused between who was actually better, robson or keane? The fact remains that all three were around the same level with not much between the three. Robson was more of an offensive box to box(best goal scoring ratio out of the four) while souness was a defensive lynchpin. Regardless of who you feel is better, there is no doubt that murdoch is the least qualified out of the four.
With regards to strikers, I have already said my piece so will say both are more or less at the same level. With Dean being imo more deadlier.
So in conclusion, my midfield trio is clearly better than his while his left flank dominates my left and my right dominates his left. While beckham might work harder, giggs superior pace and dribbling ability cancels that out.
Fullbacks I would put at the same level. Wilson was better than neville while dunne and sherwood seem at the same level but there isnt a lot into it so I wont spend time arguing.
In central defense, he has a clear advantage with moore and charles vs ferdinand and raisbeck. Raisbeck played in the centre half position which was equivalent to the modern anchor man but was an excellent man marker and destroyer of the opposition attack so had all the attributes to player as a center back.
My superior midfield and attack is negated a bit by him having a stronger CB duo. The question remains if those two will be enough to counter the shortfall in the rest of his side?
Personally feel my guys will edge the match 2-1 as my players are better goal scorers and wont let their chances go to waste.
Skizzo left flank consists of Best and Dunne who are up against Mathews and Sherwood. Both the wingers are considered the best in their position in the UK and will cause similar problems for the opposite fullbacks.
Skizzo right flank consists of Beckham and Neville who are up against Giggs and Wilson. All four of them are hard working players and proven at the highest level, while giggs and wilson have the pace and dribbling advantage. Beckham in particular is the best crosser on either team. The danger of beckhams crosses will be negated a bit by not having charles upfront but given law's excellence in the air I wouldnt call it a weakness per se. Giggs cutting inside or crossing it in works just as well for me with dean being one of the greatest header of the ball and charlton and him both waiting inside.
On the other hand, both mathews and giggs will stretch the pitch more than their opposite numbers which should allow room for dean and charlton to operate into.
The major difference between the team occurs in the middle. While I have the Ballon D'or Winner and Manchester United Legend Sir Bobby Charlton, skizzo has bertie auld. Charlton was known for his long range passing,shooting, dribbling and acceleration. Having room to operate here with the opposition not playing a specific DM and two wingers to stretch the pitch, he will be in his element. Scoring 249 goals in 758 matches, he is united's leading goal scorer and no doubt assisting loads as well.
His opposite number is a celtic midfielder bertie auld who scored only 90 goals through out his career and wasnt known as the most creative player either. In terms of AM, there is no comparison between which side will contribute to the attack more. Charlton is also better at roaming from his position and will cause havoc by moving wide and overloading a flank before slippin a through ball to dean as well.
In midfield, I have two of the greatest british box to box, Robson and Souness compared to Keane and Murdoch. In terms of the greatest box to box player out of the four, pool fans will argue Souness's case while united fans will be confused between who was actually better, robson or keane? The fact remains that all three were around the same level with not much between the three. Robson was more of an offensive box to box(best goal scoring ratio out of the four) while souness was a defensive lynchpin. Regardless of who you feel is better, there is no doubt that murdoch is the least qualified out of the four.
With regards to strikers, I have already said my piece so will say both are more or less at the same level. With Dean being imo more deadlier.
So in conclusion, my midfield trio is clearly better than his while his left flank dominates my left and my right dominates his left. While beckham might work harder, giggs superior pace and dribbling ability cancels that out.
Fullbacks I would put at the same level. Wilson was better than neville while dunne and sherwood seem at the same level but there isnt a lot into it so I wont spend time arguing.
In central defense, he has a clear advantage with moore and charles vs ferdinand and raisbeck. Raisbeck played in the centre half position which was equivalent to the modern anchor man but was an excellent man marker and destroyer of the opposition attack so had all the attributes to player as a center back.
My superior midfield and attack is negated a bit by him having a stronger CB duo. The question remains if those two will be enough to counter the shortfall in the rest of his side?
Personally feel my guys will edge the match 2-1 as my players are better goal scorers and wont let their chances go to waste.
Voted me to 8-6...then I came back a couple of minutes later to 7-7. I'm guessing a mistake...the sly devil
Lets hope he sticks to his vote this time.(Want to vote for our sides? Hate clicking on check results each time).
In addition to that wall of text, I will argue that my attack is strongest down the left flank with giggs,robson and charlton while best wont track back. This could prove to be key here with dunne isolated against the finest players of the british isles at times.
Having read through four pages here I can't say I'm too impressed. It's been mainly handbags, as far as I'm concerned, very few interesting points have been raised.
Bit to do with the nature of the reinforcements, in fairness. Both teams made the inevitable pick and in terms of overall strength it's very close and stalemate-ish.
Bit to do with the nature of the reinforcements, in fairness. Both teams made the inevitable pick and in terms of overall strength it's very close and stalemate-ish.
Best is on the same side as matthews...Giggs will be contending with Beckham and Neville.
Yeah we can vote for ourselves..I hate doing it too.
I have some family issues that just came up. Not sure if I'll be back.
If @Pat_Mustard is around, hopefully he can jump in. Otherwise take the win. Good game.
Voted. Ahh ignore that then, got confused after my wall of text
It's 7-9 as it stands. Still more than 7 hours to go.
Took my time on this one as it was difficult but went with MJJ in the end.
Why I said that and what I meant:
- all wingers are superior to their fullbacks, with only Wilson having a real chance to hold his own against Becks, mostly because Becks isn't going to try and beat him in the first place most of the time
- there are no specialized DM's in the game, even if every midfielder here can and will contribute to defensive play massively
- absolutely enormous attacking quality in both teams
- there would be a lot of chances and no defence can be expected to keep a clean sheet against Dean and Charlton with the service of Giggs and Matthews, same as against Best and Law with the service of Beckham, Auld and Murdoch
Why I backed Skizzo/Pat:
As I said, no defence here can be realistically expected to shut down their opponents completely. Even if centerbacks are stylistically suited to mark their opponents (pace of Raisbeck and Rio against fast and agile Law/Best, physicality of Charles on Dean), and they are. But here we can start to talk about quality - and the monstrous pairing of Charles and Moore will hold their own more often than not - yet, I can't say that about your backline. You are comparing forwards to forwards and wingers to wingers, but what you have to do is compare the gap between the attacking and defensive units. And that gap is bigger between Skizzo's attack and your defence.
Dean>Law is a wrong statement in the first place and it's pointless to compare them anyway. They were completely different players - but both are all-time British greats. If anything, I would expect a neutral fan to rate Law higher, with Ballon D'Or and everything, though it can very well be a wrong assumption too.
Roy Race is better than both of them anyway, I don't know why he wasn't picked
Last edited:
Sorry.@Barney you tease
On the Law/Dean debate, not seeing much to separate them. They are both clearly in the top tier of centre-forwards in the draft alongside Greaves and Charles. You can probably create mini-lists within that four to rank them in different elements of attacking play, but they are essentially all in the same group.
Agreed. It's very hard to contextualise the first generation of superstars - effectively from 1890 to 1920. No footage and very limited newspaper accounts. The next from after the first world war through to the advent of the TV age (1920-1955) is easier because of the development of international competition and better availability of supporting literature. Huge crowds now show the game has become mainstreamed with the rules, from 1930 onwards, pretty much settling down permanently.
Last edited:
I agree completely. We really need to establish some sort of stricter rules on these matter. Some voters has changed their own opinion on this from match to match. In one match you'll see someone argue for a 1930's player or not mention them, in the next you see them arguing against a 1950's player for lack of photage and what not.
The line or Sir's
Aye Annah, it's either as EAP says and we abandon all-time drafts or set out some sort of parameters to introduce a level playing field. The decades draft was good in that sense as we all had to have a spread of players across different eras.
Yeah, I've barely ever been involved in these and thought I'd look in out if interest hoping to learn something
But from what I see, two very even teams. I guess I like the power of MJJ's attack and midfield a little more, I'm not sold on skizzo's fullbacks there.
Its looking like this has ran away from us here. Nonetheless...
No issues with preferring MJJ's midfield or attack, but the full backs thing I genuinely can't fathom. Neville and Dunne are two of Utd's longest-serving players in our two most successful eras. One of the Caf's most knowledgable posters says that Dunne is the fastest Utd player he has ever seen, a serious asset against a top class winger. On the other side, we have a right back who spent the vast majority of his career in the lower divisions, and most of the rest battling relegation, against arguably the best player in the whole draft in Best.Yeah, I've barely ever been involved in these and thought I'd look in out if interest hoping to learn something
But from what I see, two very even teams. I guess I like the power of MJJ's attack and midfield a little more, I'm not sold on skizzo's fullbacks there.
I don't think your fullbacks are inferior, let me just state that first: Dunne and Neville are very good choices in this context, there shouldn't be any doubt about that. In fact, I'd say Neville is probably the pick of the four - which would make your pair edge it slightly.
But the fact that Sherwood played the majority of his career outside the first division isn't nearly as damning as it sounds: He was a top player in his position in his prime - it just happens that he played for a less successful side for well over a decade, which is unthinkable today (but it wasn't back then). It's very much one of them things where the historical context is absolutely crucial.
Time to roll the dice here. We change the formation and press for the equaliser:
Key Points:
We switch to a 3 man defence, with Charles pushing up to centre forward alongside Law. Lennox comes on for Auld. Lennox scored 44 goals in 44 games during his peak season, and is by far the most prolific winger on the pitch.
Lawrenson replaces Dunne. Neville has played well in a 3 man defence for England, and Lawrenson is a great fit for the left-sided centre back role. He has played extensively as a full back, he's exceptionally fast and he's an excellent tackler. Moore is comfortably the best defender in the draft for this impromptu sweeper role. He'll organise the defence, push them forward when he can, and pass the ball out of defence with his customary poise and class.
Beckham drops deep on the right wing. The attacking strategy is two-pronged and simple:
1) Get the ball to Beckham on the right. He crosses, with the inviting target of Charles in the centre. If he doesn't score himself he has Lennox, Best and Law waiting to pounce on any knockdowns, with Law well capable of meeting Beckham's crosses directly himself.
2) Work the ball through the middle to Best, who is in a free role and can go wherever he wants, and Law, whose underrated dribbling and creativity will create openings.
Positives? We bombard MJJ's highly suspect defence. Robson and Souness are forced onto the back foot. I've outlined why I feel Sherwood is the weakest full back on the pitch, and noone has the slightest idea if Raisbeck was 1) suited to play as a centre back 2) anywhere near the required standard here. What we do know is that he was short, and that while Rio was decent in the air, we can surmise that Charles will win the majority of the battles in the air. We now have 3 attackers who averaged a goal a game or better in their prime seasons. I see no way that this late-match bombardment won't bag us a goal or two.
Downsides? An obvious vulnerability on the counter - no sense denying that.
Key Points:
We switch to a 3 man defence, with Charles pushing up to centre forward alongside Law. Lennox comes on for Auld. Lennox scored 44 goals in 44 games during his peak season, and is by far the most prolific winger on the pitch.
Lawrenson replaces Dunne. Neville has played well in a 3 man defence for England, and Lawrenson is a great fit for the left-sided centre back role. He has played extensively as a full back, he's exceptionally fast and he's an excellent tackler. Moore is comfortably the best defender in the draft for this impromptu sweeper role. He'll organise the defence, push them forward when he can, and pass the ball out of defence with his customary poise and class.
Beckham drops deep on the right wing. The attacking strategy is two-pronged and simple:
1) Get the ball to Beckham on the right. He crosses, with the inviting target of Charles in the centre. If he doesn't score himself he has Lennox, Best and Law waiting to pounce on any knockdowns, with Law well capable of meeting Beckham's crosses directly himself.
2) Work the ball through the middle to Best, who is in a free role and can go wherever he wants, and Law, whose underrated dribbling and creativity will create openings.
Positives? We bombard MJJ's highly suspect defence. Robson and Souness are forced onto the back foot. I've outlined why I feel Sherwood is the weakest full back on the pitch, and noone has the slightest idea if Raisbeck was 1) suited to play as a centre back 2) anywhere near the required standard here. What we do know is that he was short, and that while Rio was decent in the air, we can surmise that Charles will win the majority of the battles in the air. We now have 3 attackers who averaged a goal a game or better in their prime seasons. I see no way that this late-match bombardment won't bag us a goal or two.
Downsides? An obvious vulnerability on the counter - no sense denying that.
@crappycraperson . If you're online could you update the OP with our new formation? Cheers!
that formation is crazy, you are going to get murdered down the flanks and throught the middle. Charlton giggs mathews and dean vs neville lawrenson and mathews? and you didn't even write the name of your goalie.That's a fair point and I accept it to an extent. In the absence of much evidence to the contrary however, barring a few quotes from Matthews and some Welsh author, I absolutely maintain that his record of only 4 largely unsuccessful seasons in the top flight is applicable in assessing his level. If anyone here had watched him extensively (or even at all) then of course their opinion carries more weight if they view him as being an outstanding player, but that doesn't seem to be the case. The evidence, such as it exists, suggests that he isn't a strong pick at this stage, and given that MJJ felt it was fair game to highlight the far better credentialled Dunne as the weakest player on the pitch it was reasonable for us to point that out.
Goalie's name is Southall. We're chasing a game with about 5 minutes left, 'secure in defence' isnt particularly high our priority list as far as formations go. And a dodgy defence doesn't seem to have done you much harm so far
.Goalie's name is Southall. We're chasing a game with about 5 minutes left, 'secure in defence' isnt particularly high our priority list as far as formations go. And a dodgy defence doesn't seem to have done you much harm so far
formation though. still might as well try something crazy. Ferdinand to giggs who is in acres of space, runs past lawrenson and passes to Charlton. Charlton with the ball slips it through to dean and gooooallll.
That's the risk of course. Potential upside is Charles murdering your centre backs in the air, and the likes of Sherwood and Raisbeck having to somehow try to keep out Charles, Law, Best and Lennox.
Ferdinand to giggs who is in acres of space, runs past lawrenson and passes to Charlton. Charlton with the ball slips it through to dean and gooooallll.
true don't envy my defenders at all. having to deal with that attacking lineup.
So that kamikaze formation change resulted in zero votes in either direction...so much for going out in a blaze of glory
Well done @MJJ and @manikandan nair . Good game (handbags or not!) and I'm glad it got a good turnout from the voters. Ultimately our midfield probably came up a bit short against the brilliant Robson/Souness/Charlton axis, but I'm glad we more or less stuck with our Lisbon Lions core who got us this far. I've had a great time researching and trying to sell them.
Well done @MJJ and @manikandan nair . Good game (handbags or not!) and I'm glad it got a good turnout from the voters. Ultimately our midfield probably came up a bit short against the brilliant Robson/Souness/Charlton axis, but I'm glad we more or less stuck with our Lisbon Lions core who got us this far. I've had a great time researching and trying to sell them.
Well played Skizzo and Pat.
Well played both teams and congrats Mani and MJJ for the win.
Well played Pat, in regards to Lisbon lions core, you guys should have picked jimmy johnstone instead of Best for the finals. No disrespect to Best here but by adding JJ along with Auld and Murdoch would have be even brilliant.So that kamikaze formation change resulted in zero votes in either direction...so much for going out in a blaze of glory
Well done @MJJ and @manikandan nair . Good game (handbags or not!) and I'm glad it got a good turnout from the voters. Ultimately our midfield probably came up a bit short against the brilliant Robson/Souness/Charlton axis, but I'm glad we more or less stuck with our Lisbon Lions core who got us this far. I've had a great time researching and trying to sell them.
You too Mani, same to @MJJ No shame in losing to that team!
Thanks @Pat_Mustard for covering me so often!
This was one of the more fun drafts I've had with the different player pool to narrow down from.
When's the next one?
Congrats @MJJ
Good game, @Pat_Mustard @Skizzo . I may be harsh, but a 'fancier' name than Auld might have tipped the scales. I can understand the reasons on proven combos, but then draft games votes rarely makes sense. Hard luck.
PS: I still kick myself for not starting with Scholes
Good game, @Pat_Mustard @Skizzo . I may be harsh, but a 'fancier' name than Auld might have tipped the scales. I can understand the reasons on proven combos, but then draft games votes rarely makes sense. Hard luck.
PS: I still kick myself for not starting with Scholes
Yeah, left with a few "what if..." scenarios. Drafting Hansen in for defence and leaving Charles, going with Johnstone for a total Lions midfield etc. Ah well..been a lot of fun!Congrats @MJJ
Good game, @Pat_Mustard @Skizzo . I may be harsh, but a 'fancier' name than Auld might have tipped the scales. I can understand the reasons on proven combos, but then draft games votes rarely makes sense. Hard luck.
PS: I still kick myself for not starting with Scholes
I'm trying to come up with some ideas for a draft. Who's doing the next one? I don't mind getting in line to host one.
You are doing the next one!
Cheers mate! I really wanted Johnstone even before we went with the Lisbon Lions core, and we would have bid for him in the previous reinforcement round if we were allowed to sign more than two players. We just couldn't pass up on Best though, especially with Law in the team.