Andre Marriner

[LDUred]

I thought he had an excellent game and got the big calls right.

He could easily have sent off Casemiro for a second yellow, but he seemed to reason that Casemiro had made a genuine attempt to play the ball, which he did. In any case, Cas was fortunate not to be given his marching orders.

The penalty was a pen all day long.

I thought he should have booked and possibly sent off Mitoma for blatant diving (two yellow card offences) and Rashford also should have been booked for the same. However, some refs just don't seem to want to enforce that rule. I suppose you could say he treated both sides equally.

He generally seemed to err on the side of leniency and letting the game flow, which is a hallmark of English refs (and can sometimes be excessive). At least he was consistent, and that was shown when he was lenient towards Antony (who basically lost the plot and was lucky to stay on the pitch). I still think Marinner got that decision spot on. Antony's foul on Mac Allister was a yellow but although he reacted he didn't raise his hands to Dunk, who was rightly booked for confronting Antony.

It was a better than decent performance and he did exceptionally well calling the Antony and Casemiro blow ups.

 

[Abraxas]

I obviously think that refs should get the respect, but wearing a black shirt shouldn't be the only prerequisite. If he were a bit more honest last night he would've avoided a bunch of the incidents that became controversial later on. Marriner and his officiating created much of the tension and directly influenced the game in Brighton's favour. Had he not allowed Mitoma to dive twice without yellow, then maybe Rashford wouldn't have thought that there was a worthwhile risk/reward ratio to attempting a dive as well. But instead, everybody's talking about Rashford's pathetic dive. And why wouldn't he take his chances when he's seen that this ref doesn't give a yellow for it when the same player on the other team's done it twice? So by booking Mitoma for either of his dives he could've avoided Rashford or anyone else attempting to con him.

Look at the foul by Estupinan on Antony that the referee ignored, and then compare that with the foul on Enciso, that he was stood two yards away from and thought was a foul. He's set the bar at one level for United and one for Brighton. Then Antony becomes frustrated with this treatment from the referees and lashes out, and now all the discussion is how Antony should/could have been sent off. But if he had just called an obvious foul that was more obvious than fouls he called for the other team, Antony wouldn't have felt unfairly treated and wouldn't have lashed out and sparked a huge melee. And instead of Estupinan being on a yellow we have Antony on a yellow, and instead of having Antony being able to challenge a booked defender for the last 20 minutes of the game, we have to sub him off for Sancho while Estupinan is free to keep fouling. And then all the discussion is how lenient Marriner was to not send Antony off when he could've avoided the entire situation by just giving the foul in the first place, which was a foul by the standard he applied for the other team (and then some, based on the Enciso foul that led to the period of pressure that ultimately won them the game).

So with a level of officiating that is that poor, how do you expect players to respect referees? Respect is earned and should be deserved, not automatically given because someone wears a black shirt.

What has honesty got to do with anything? Unless you're intimating that he is biased and has no professional integrity, I'm not sure what you mean. If we're going down that rabbit hole I don't have much to offer to that particular conversation because I think it is somewhat ridiculous and without anything to support it, it's just tedious. But maybe you mean something else by that term.

Perhaps he didn't think Mitoma dived to give a yellow in the first place during real time and without replays. There is a line between complete dive and lacking strength and balance and going down more easily than is reasonable for the average player in that situation. Either way, whatever the reason was, no it doesn't justify other players taking a decision to dive so I don't really understand that line of argument. But again, deliberate cheating is something that I think needs more attention on stamping out, and until that happens of course they're going to try their luck, but it isn't acceptable or desirable. It should be punished after the game and then it wouldn't even matter what Rashford saw or thought about, they'd both be getting punished if found to dive. We can keep bashing refs for missing them or seeing them inconsistently, but actually...until they're given the tools within the game to deal with it, the amount of cheating dictates that some of it will get by the ref. It's inevitable.

To be honest I find a lot of this about particular fouls to be microanalysis of stuff that really wasn't as important to the game as you're making out. They're just...fouls. Yellow cards. Refs make dozens of those decisions every game, some aren't going to be absolutely correct or 100% consistent. Let's get over it eh. The logic that because the ref misses some decisions it justifies childish petulance is weird. They're grown men, they own their own actions.

 

[Lost bear]

Bracing myself for all the abuse...... But I thought he was ok for us yesterday really.

Anthony could easily have seen red & so could Casemiro...... And it was a penalty.

Lets not be sore losers and blame the ref.

You speak as though you’re saying something forbidden, yet lots of others on here, this time and often in the past, make the same argument. Any complaint regarding the referee’s performances is just us being RAWK and distracting from the team’s terrible performance.

Obviously those of us who like and follow Utd are going to have an emotionally based tendency to see events and performances in a particular way — ‘biased’ if you like. All we can do is try to be honest. Personally, it looks to me as though there are some officials who seem determined to feck us over by making decisions that are at best inconsistent or outright favourable to our opposition. I could be wrong, but I think Mariner is a case in point , though maybe not the worst. It’s something that continues across games and even seasons- the players will pick up on it and it will affect their attitudes to games. It’s complex, and not black and white, but to say it’s ‘simple’ bias on our part is not, I believe, accurate.

 

[Revan]

People complain here more than Liverpool fans at RAWK during the time when they were shit.

The pen was a stonewall pen. The foul before that was a foul. And Casemiro was extremely lucky to not have been sent off.

Mikoma should have been booked for diving, but so should have been Rashford.

 

[Stig]

I feel sorry for refs having to manage a game where almost every single player is trying to cheat to win an advantage.

Yellows for diving and flopping anywhere on the pitch might help.

 

[Kaos]

Posters saying he had a good game and the penalty was the right decision were conveniently ignoring the BS freekick he awarded that led to the penalty. We dropped a point because of that.

 

[Stig]

I'm quite perplexed by some of the takes in here. The pen was a definite pen. He/VAR got the yellow to Antony right when other refs would have been swayed to show a red. He/VAR got the no-pen decision with AWB and Mitoma right. And he should definitely have sent off Cas for a second yellow but didn't.

Other than not booking Caicedo for his challenge on Rashford in the first half, I don't have any complaints. If anything, due to Cas being braindead, we got away lightly.

I'm not sure that such an honest analysis will be welcome here.

 

[Stig]

You can guarantee that as night follows day we will lose a game and then a refereeing thread will get bumped to divert from the situation that we lost because we weren't good enough on the day. It's just an outlet I guess, the same way the managers do it.

Constant fouls on transition tonight, and players from both sides flopping to the floor any time a 5mph breeze swept across the Amex. You ain't gonna get perfect consistency at in game speed with that amount of gamesmanship and willingness to stop counters. Some stuff will be missed but in general it was okay and he got the very obvious big decision right so I really don't see the issue.

A would like deliberate stopping of counter attacks to be a sin bin.

They stop a scoring or exciting opportunity for fans to watch. It ruins the game. Make a professional foul for the team and spend 10 minutes in the bench .

Games would be more end to end and exciting.

 

[lex talionis]

The pen was a pen. Other decisions can be quibbled over but none of them had a direct bearing on the outcome of the game.

 

[Stig]

What has honesty got to do with anything? Unless you're intimating that he is biased and has no professional integrity, I'm not sure what you mean. If we're going down that rabbit hole I don't have much to offer to that particular conversation because I think it is somewhat ridiculous and without anything to support it, it's just tedious. But maybe you mean something else by that term.

Perhaps he didn't think Mitoma dived to give a yellow in the first place during real time and without replays. There is a line between complete dive and lacking strength and balance and going down more easily than is reasonable for the average player in that situation. Either way, whatever the reason was, no it doesn't justify other players taking a decision to dive so I don't really understand that line of argument. But again, deliberate cheating is something that I think needs more attention on stamping out, and until that happens of course they're going to try their luck, but it isn't acceptable or desirable. It should be punished after the game and then it wouldn't even matter what Rashford saw or thought about, they'd both be getting punished if found to dive. We can keep bashing refs for missing them or seeing them inconsistently, but actually...until they're given the tools within the game to deal with it, the amount of cheating dictates that some of it will get by the ref. It's inevitable.

To be honest I find a lot of this about particular fouls to be microanalysis of stuff that really wasn't as important to the game as you're making out. They're just...fouls. Yellow cards. Refs make dozens of those decisions every game, some aren't going to be absolutely correct or 100% consistent. Let's get over it eh. The logic that because the ref misses some decisions it justifies childish petulance is weird. They're grown men, they own their own actions.

Good post . !

 

[padzilla]

The pen was a pen. Other decisions can be quibbled over but none of them had a direct bearing on the outcome of the game.

Well the ridiculous free-kick he gave against Shaw very much did have a direct outcome on the game.
Brighton win a penalty which only came about because of the passage of play that was created by awarding that free-kick.
Yes we definitely should have defended it better and Shaw made a ridiculously bad call but there's no reason to exonerate Mariner for also making a ridiculously bad call which led to the goal too.

 

[Anustart89]

What has honesty got to do with anything? Unless you're intimating that he is biased and has no professional integrity, I'm not sure what you mean. If we're going down that rabbit hole I don't have much to offer to that particular conversation because I think it is somewhat ridiculous and without anything to support it, it's just tedious. But maybe you mean something else by that term.

Perhaps he didn't think Mitoma dived to give a yellow in the first place during real time and without replays. There is a line between complete dive and lacking strength and balance and going down more easily than is reasonable for the average player in that situation. Either way, whatever the reason was, no it doesn't justify other players taking a decision to dive so I don't really understand that line of argument. But again, deliberate cheating is something that I think needs more attention on stamping out, and until that happens of course they're going to try their luck, but it isn't acceptable or desirable. It should be punished after the game and then it wouldn't even matter what Rashford saw or thought about, they'd both be getting punished if found to dive. We can keep bashing refs for missing them or seeing them inconsistently, but actually...until they're given the tools within the game to deal with it, the amount of cheating dictates that some of it will get by the ref. It's inevitable.

To be honest I find a lot of this about particular fouls to be microanalysis of stuff that really wasn't as important to the game as you're making out. They're just...fouls. Yellow cards. Refs make dozens of those decisions every game, some aren't going to be absolutely correct or 100% consistent. Let's get over it eh. The logic that because the ref misses some decisions it justifies childish petulance is weird. They're grown men, they own their own actions.

There's nothing wrong with your reading comprehension. I do believe and I am suggesting that it was a dishonest and biased refereeing performance, and the ref made a rod for his own back with many of the incidents that happened during the game. However, due to Brighton being media darlings and United being the very opposite of it, as has been obvious by Sky's coverage on the night and by the uproar over one missed penalty for Brighton (while nobody's said a thing about numerous incidents going against us), nobody's going to scrutinise that refereeing performance. And that is probably a bigger reason for him being biased against us than something else like Man City being his favourite team, a United supporter shagging his mum or anything like that. But he was biased on the night and it did influence the game in many small ways, like Antony being booked instead of Estupiñan, which forced us to take him off and replace him with the ineffective Sancho.

Like I've said, there were many instances where he had to book Brighton players or penalise fouls by Brighton where he chose not to do so, giving them relative impunity on the night, while not giving the same leniency towards United. Over a game of 90 minutes, that frustration adds up and had he simply given an obvious foul against Estupiñan on Antony (and it's obvious that the contact was enough to give a foul considering the game-changing foul he then blew for on Enciso) there wouldn't be a kick-out by Antony and there would be no brawl. Caicedo lunged in on Shaw on the touchline with studs showing and being out of control, and then stamped on Rashford's foot, both incidents passed without yellow cards, Mitoma dived twice without a yellow, and grabbed the ball with his hands to stop us going on the attack without being booked for any of those incidents, but all the discussion is how poor United's discipline was because they got frustrated by biased refereeing and Rashford attempted a dive because the referee showed that he allowed it. And the prevailing discussion, even on here, is how Casemiro should've been sent off for a sliding tackle that resulted in an advantage played that ended with them having a shot from the 18 yard line, which the rules are very clear about shouldn't be penalised since he hasn't stopped a promising attack at all.

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

But as we've seen with us, a decision doesn't have to be incorrect for everyone to whip themselves into a frenzy over United and refereeing calls, like the Bruno goal v City which was technically correct under the law, but somehow became our fault and needed to be compensated for by not giving us a favourable decision for the rest of the season. Imagine one of our players had won that free kick that Enciso dived to win, which then led to us putting pressure on the opposing team leading to a game-winning penalty in the 99th minute. Do you think it would've been mentioned a) less, b) as much as, or c) more than the Enciso dive's been mentioned? Here's a hint: Compare how much Brighton's "penalty after the final whistle" has been mentioned compared to how much United's "penalty after the final whistle" has been mentioned by pundits and online.

And let's keep in mind that this is the very same ref who broke the VAR protocol that they've been using all season to get Casemiro sent off for a second time this season, and who was the first referee to send him off as well, even if I'd mainly put the blame on the VAR in that game who showed him intentionally misleading footage.

On a weekly basis we see similar tackles, where a player is stepping into a challenge, gets the timing slightly wrong and catches the opponent above the boot. It has been consistent throughout the season that these haven't been VAR red cards. To cross the threshold for intervention, the VAR is looking for a player coming in with force, leaving the ground or making contact from behind high above the boot.

Take Virgil van Dijk's challenge on Amadou Onana in September, when the Liverpool defender caught Onana higher on the shin after stepping into a challenge. Referee Anthony Taylor issued a yellow card, which wasn't upgraded after a VAR check.

If the referee gives a red card in these situations it won't be overturned, but they haven't been awarded through VAR.

(Dale Johnson's ESPN column)

 

[Stig]

I don't totally agree with you, but it's well written, passionate and makes some good points.

Quality post.

 

[Anustart89]

I don't totally agree with you, but it's well written, passionate and makes some good points.

Quality post.

Cheers mate, appreciate it. Disagreeing's fine, and I accept that me and the poster I replied to might not have the same view of things in the end, but it's nice to be able to discuss and write a long post without the response automatically being "what a moronic take", without addressing any of the points attempted to be made in the midst of that rant, as is often the case on here

 

[Anustart89]

Just to add to my previous posts, @GifLord was kind enough to compile a couple of incidents that highlight Marriner's officiating


In the first clip, he doesn't blow for Caicedo's initial push, doesn't blow for Caicedo's wild lunge on Shaw, but only blows his whistle when Shaw pushes their player. As you can see, he just stands there and doesn't know in which direction to give the free kick until his linesman tells him to give the foul to us for Caicedo's lunge, but that's not the moment when he blows the whistle at all.

Second is the second Caicedo incident that he doesn't deem a foul.

Third is a blatant pull on Rashford where Estupinan clearly pulls Rashford by the arm, and Marriner deems it fair game. Looking at it again, I actually think it's inside the penalty area, so why there wasn't a VAR check for that is weird

And then 15 seconds after he's ignored the blatant pull on Rashford, Antony dribbles between two players and Estupinan (again) just goes across him and blocks him without even looking at where the ball goes. Again no foul, and then Antony lashes out and everyone goes "oh Marriner was very kind to United to not send Antony off".

And then there's the horrific foul by Shaw on Enciso that apparently was more of a foul than the previous incidents in the video.

 

[MikeKing]

I'm not talking about Man Utd or a specific club going out on their own and playing like saints. That would be pure stupidity for the reason you allude to. My only point is its ridiculous to blame refs for the players acting like fecking idiots. If you are surrounded by people attempting to con you, at some point you're going to get conned.

But something has to come from the very top of the game. The referees and refereeing associations are under too much pressure to deliver what is needed to stamp cheating out by themselves, even though ultimately they have to be the ones to action it. It would be easy to say "give them all red cards" but that ain't going to happen because of the backlash they'd get for doing that unless it is preapproved within the game. They already get flack for mundane decisions such as yellow cards. The governing bodies of the game have to be the ones to say "this is not how we want to play football" and there needs to be a cohesive approach across the game towards it and then the exact mechanisms can flow from there. There's no good just one league having an approach either, because then when it comes to Europe there will be completely different standards.

I completely agree it has to come from the top. It's one of the reasons I like the concept of VAR. It really could be used as a tool to fix a lot of issues in football. They just need to make a blueprint of what they want, how to do it, and what constitutes it and stick to the god damn script. In European handball there have been a lot of changes the last few years and certain situations they've been wanting to cut out from the game, so they worked out a very clear guide for the refs to follow and the refs are very professional so it actually works. They get a lot of respect because of the consistency and VAR gives them the help to be consistent.

 

[ShinjiNinja26]

Not fit to referee, just like every other official in the PL. The standard is absolutely pathetic, a disgrace for the so called best league in the world.

 

[Hughes35]

You speak as though you’re saying something forbidden, yet lots of others on here, this time and often in the past, make the same argument. Any complaint regarding the referee’s performances is just us being RAWK and distracting from the team’s terrible performance.

Obviously those of us who like and follow Utd are going to have an emotionally based tendency to see events and performances in a particular way — ‘biased’ if you like. All we can do is try to be honest. Personally, it looks to me as though there are some officials who seem determined to feck us over by making decisions that are at best inconsistent or outright favourable to our opposition. I could be wrong, but I think Mariner is a case in point , though maybe not the worst. It’s something that continues across games and even seasons- the players will pick up on it and it will affect their attitudes to games. It’s complex, and not black and white, but to say it’s ‘simple’ bias on our part is not, I believe, accurate.

If Mariner was biased he could have sent players off and given Brighton a penalty..... he did none of these things.