Another transfer window would not solve our footballing, It's all about Mourinho's approach.

[royboy16]

Hi. I'm considered a newbie in here, although I've been reading for several years. I'll tread lightly and thank you for the opportunity to post.

With regard to the original poster, and after a number of years of reflection and literally watching every single press conference over the past 5 years, I've come to this point of view on Mourinho:

• It's not that he's 100 percent tactically inflexible. It's that he's so cautious that balance on the pitch must be perfect before he'll risk utilizing what we'll refer to as his Plan B -- a more attacking setup. Not just formation (4-2-3-1), but positioning on the pitch and nuances like whether both fullbacks are forward at the same time.
• In his second stint at Chelsea, during the 2014-2015 season, we saw just 5 months of Plan B -- Diego Costa brand new and interested and firing; Oscar still believing in himself; Cesc just having arrived and been given his preferred deep-lying playmaker position; Hazard and Matic in top form.
• Then after a thumping by Spurs, he reverted back to Plan A, his normal footballing DNA -- suffocating; let the other guy have the ball and wait for him to make a mistake; clean sheet; never commit too many men forward against anyone in the top 6.
• Let's be honest: It has often worked. Not always, but regularly throughout his history dating to Porto.
• But his success rate, as measured by league titles -- managing in the grind -- is waning. This is not an opinion; it is a fact: He has won 2 leagues of his last 7 (counting this season) after winning six of the previous seven.
• Why? Just a theory, but I think he has either aged or soured out of his prime. His time as a man manager has come and gone. He appears to have become extremely impatient/angry with players of a certain generation/type.
• Anyone watching Kevin DeBruyne for more than 10 minutes at Chelsea, even several years ago, knew he could be a worldie. Mourinho never gave him more than 10 minutes, and I'm convinced it was because DeBruyne isn't "Mourinho tough".
• After 6 months of pure grind for dull 1-0 results in his last winning season at Chelsea, the players turned on him the following preseason, lost their desire to run. Didn't want to play in his Plan A anymore, and it was so obvious. And they did him in, same as Madrid. "Palpable discord," all that.
• Not saying it was all his fault. There's so much about him I enjoy, starting with the intelligence. I think he's smarter than most, including Conte. But I think he lacks sincerity, and that ultimately wears people out, even if they are fine playing in a boring setup.
• So, as I see it, Mourinho is at approximately the median point of his time with United. He hasn't yet imploded, but there are signs that it's coming. Still, you might win the Champions League before it happens. Because knock-out football is his thing.

Well said.

 

[ValenciaRocks]

First post on this board, so I'm going to try and be diplomatic and hold back a little.

I wanted Mourinho to take over from Fergie. It would have been the ideal replacement, as Fergie really was a pragmatist towards the end, so it could have been a fairly smooth (ish) takeover, and I believe Jose would have won us at least one league title over those 3 years. I gotta say, I was distraught when we hired Moyes, could not believe what we were doing.

But what's done is done.

The trouble now though, is football has moved on rapidly in those 4 and a half years since Fergie retired with Pep, Klopp and Poch arriving. They've raised the bar. And Mourinho hasn't changed. I'm not sure if he can change. Yes, we're ahead of Klopp and Poch in the league, just about, but look at how much we've spent, and it wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if they go past us this season.

It is easy with hindsight to say now I suppose, but when we fired LVG, we should have tried to build on what LVG was trying to do, and brought in a more progressive manager and combined LVG's possession style football with a high pressing quick tempo, that would have been the smooth transition, compared to ripping up everything he did and more or less starting again with Jose.

At least under LVG, we normally put in a good performance against the big teams, granted there were some poor performances away against Arsenal & Spurs, but there were also some of our best performances in years against City and Liverpool. Of course LVG had to go, and granted, Jose is much better at putting away the dross, but there was something to build on there after LVG.

Now, and it is even more evident against the better teams, we can barely string 4 passes together when we are under the cosh, we really struggle to alleviate the pressure because of this, especially away from home, we just have no composure or confidence to hold onto the ball and take the pressure off ourselves and build something from defence. The defenders hoof the ball forward and it just comes straight back to us. And that has to be down to the coaching.

It is brutal to watch, and I don't think Jose can change. There is no way he can challenge for a title ever again playing this way. 12 years ago yes, even 3 years ago yes, today, nope. The bar has been raised considerably.

And in case anyone hasn't noticed, there is an arms race going on right, the Premier League is becoming more and more global, so we can not be left behind with this tumescent style of football while our competitors are picking up new fans all round the world. The board are finally putting their hands in their pockets after years of under investment, but we need a new vision now on the training ground I'm afraid to say.

Jose has to go, he was once one of the best in the world, but he's now a dinosaur, he's a victim of how quickly football has moved forward, and a home win on Sunday against Chelsea will not change that (IMHO).

I agree with you on this completely. Great insight and explanation of how we have fared over the last couple of seasons.

The manager has to change his approach to our game. Sir Alex definitely changed the way we/the players approached games, he was the mastermind. He made Giggs a fantastic central midfielder, he adapted Ferdinands game, he gave us both possession based and counter attacking qualities too. He was never a one trick pony, he always had the opposition guessing and he managed to find a balance between young and old, homegrown and foreign players.

I just hope Mourinho isn’t as stubborn as he seems. If he is then we are going to fall way behind.

The only glimpse of positivity was at the beginning of this season. Then for some strange reason after the Huddlesfield loss and the Liverpool double decker draw, we have played too cautious, too pragmatic.

 

[shamans]

Yeah but how and why is this a new thread.

 

[Scarecrow]

Do you lot not get tired of coming here every day and making the same posts and threads over and over again, and reading the same responses over and over again? I can't imagine the level of passion one must have for his convictions to get past the tediousness and pointlessness of the process.

 

[Marcky411]

This definitely couldn't have gone in one of the many other threads full of people moaning.

True, very true but it just shows how the fans are starting to turn on the best manager in the world, the same way they did Moyes and LvG. A lot of the fans were all for giving him time, (given the 2 managers before him) give him a couple of transfer windows till he has got his own players in he wants. That has happened and still we are playing with the old Fergie converted players, playing the same dire football we played under LvG, slow side to side and then backwards, just to hoof it forward and give away possession - repeat.
I too am someone tired of this Mourinho style of play, he wet our appetites at the beginning of the season with attacking football and letting the horses run only to pull the rug from underneath us with this defensive whatever you want to call it football we are playing now.
Sometimes when I really get frustrated I just think to myself, I am a supporter, how must our attacking players feel, being forced to play this way otherwise they get benched.
The only thing that comforts me is that this can't and won't last, at some point he is either going to loose the dressing room or the board will kick him out. I just hope when they do look for a new manager they go for a more attack minded manager and not another LvG/Moyes/Mourinho style manager where defence comes first.

 

[Kill 'em all]

Most of our problems would be solved if we bought 2 really good fullbacks.

Look at how much Man City improved when they solved that problem.

 

[JohnLocke]

Most of our problems would be solved if we bought 2 really good fullbacks.

Look at how much Man City improved when they solved that problem.

I think we would be a lot better if we had two actual full backs as well.

Valencia is alright but he's not particularity good at anything, can't play in tight spaces, can't cross, is a bit too slow on the ball and can be backed up right onto the goal line. His running reminds me of having to play FIFA using the D-Pad.

Plays alright a lot of the time though so it doesn't break my heart seeing him starting but we would be a lot better off with proper fullbacks.

Scored a couple of screamers this year too

 

[Cassidy]

Most of our problems would be solved if we bought 2 really good fullbacks.

Look at how much Man City improved when they solved that problem.

They already looked like a good attacking unit before that.

 

[deafepl]

Most of our problems would be solved if we bought 2 really good fullbacks.

Look at how much Man City improved when they solved that problem.

Think you are missing a point, my point is no matter when he needs another transfer window and he is just throwing money at the problems, it's not going to solve our problem because he doesn't want to change his footballing approach.

You can have a look at LVG's performance against TOP 6 SIDES, it was much better than Mourinho yet his squad is much stronger than LVG's with addition of Pogba, Matic, Bailly, Lukaku, Sanchez and Lindelof, he can have world-class XI with Neymar, Messi, Ronaldo but will park bus against team like Sevilla. I'm sorry I don't think that he should get transfer window unless he willing to change his footballing approach which should be okay but he didn't.

It's reasonable for Pep Guardiola just needing fullback yet they are much braver than us in games, they will take a risk. Jose doesn't want to take a risk, that's a difference.

 

[BluesJr]

Hi. I'm considered a newbie in here, although I've been reading for several years. I'll tread lightly and thank you for the opportunity to post.

With regard to the original poster, and after a number of years of reflection and literally watching every single press conference over the past 5 years, I've come to this point of view on Mourinho:

• It's not that he's 100 percent tactically inflexible. It's that he's so cautious that balance on the pitch must be perfect before he'll risk utilizing what we'll refer to as his Plan B -- a more attacking setup. Not just formation (4-2-3-1), but positioning on the pitch and nuances like whether both fullbacks are forward at the same time.
• In his second stint at Chelsea, during the 2014-2015 season, we saw just 5 months of Plan B -- Diego Costa brand new and interested and firing; Oscar still believing in himself; Cesc just having arrived and been given his preferred deep-lying playmaker position; Hazard and Matic in top form.
• Then after a thumping by Spurs, he reverted back to Plan A, his normal footballing DNA -- suffocating; let the other guy have the ball and wait for him to make a mistake; clean sheet; never commit too many men forward against anyone in the top 6.
• Let's be honest: It has often worked. Not always, but regularly throughout his history dating to Porto.
• But his success rate, as measured by league titles -- managing in the grind -- is waning. This is not an opinion; it is a fact: He has won 2 leagues of his last 7 (counting this season) after winning six of the previous seven.
• Why? Just a theory, but I think he has either aged or soured out of his prime. His time as a man manager has come and gone. He appears to have become extremely impatient/angry with players of a certain generation/type.
• Anyone watching Kevin DeBruyne for more than 10 minutes at Chelsea, even several years ago, knew he could be a worldie. Mourinho never gave him more than 10 minutes, and I'm convinced it was because DeBruyne isn't "Mourinho tough".
• After 6 months of pure grind for dull 1-0 results in his last winning season at Chelsea, the players turned on him the following preseason, lost their desire to run. Didn't want to play in his Plan A anymore, and it was so obvious. And they did him in, same as Madrid. "Palpable discord," all that.
• Not saying it was all his fault. There's so much about him I enjoy, starting with the intelligence. I think he's smarter than most, including Conte. But I think he lacks sincerity, and that ultimately wears people out, even if they are fine playing in a boring setup.
• So, as I see it, Mourinho is at approximately the median point of his time with United. He hasn't yet imploded, but there are signs that it's coming. Still, you might win the Champions League before it happens. Because knock-out football is his thing.

This is one the best posts I’ve seen on here recently, very well said. I agree with pretty much every point.

 

[tclark2323]

This is one the best posts I’ve seen on here recently, very well said. I agree with pretty much every point.

Thank you!

 

[deafepl]

I've said it again, I'm still not happy with Jose's approach and poor management.

 

[Nori-]

I agree with this 100%. Jose can spend another £500m, but unless he changes his style of play, we will still see the same rubbish.

We have the Pogba, Martial, Rashford, Sanchez, Lukaku, Mata etc and he has them playing like mid table players.

 

[Craig Ward]

It's becoming evident that the style isn't working. We're nearly at the end of the 2nd season and we're still playing this way.

No positivity, no energy, no attacking threat.

Pogba and Sanchez look like shadows of the players they were. Martial is struggling to get a game and Fellaini is STILL starting games. Its so poor

 

[devilish]

I think Mou is partly to blame. He's defensive minded, he play players out of position and our refusal to bring some cover to Matic is anything short to criminal. However, lets not get carried away too much. We're a team who play wingers as full backs, strikers as wingers and attacking minded midfielders in a deeper role. Do you really believe that this team deserves any top honours?

 

[Varun]

I think Mou is partly to blame. He's defensive minded, he play players out of position and our refusal to bring some cover to Matic is anything short to criminal. However, lets not get carried away too much. We're a team who play wingers as full backs, strikers as wingers and attacking minded midfielders in a deeper role. Do you really believe that this team deserves any top honours?

That's how Jose decided to have it. It's his tactics that make us look this shite vs Sevilla.

 

[Jeffthered]

Mourinho is not the right fit for the club because he simply lacks class.

Petulant, arrogant and lacks respect for the club. His post-match comments have been disgraceful ('I sit in this chair before.... this is not new to Man Utd....)

I think the guy is slightly deluded.

 

[devilish]

That's how Jose decided to have it. It's his tactics that make us look this shite vs Sevilla.

I can't fully pin it on him either. Sure he should have added a deep lying playmaker and a right winger instead of Pogba and Sanchez. Having said that SAF did left a weak side behind which was further weakened by Moyes's and LVG's erratic signings. The likes of Young, Darmian, Fellaini, Blind and co should have never been allowed to come close to the red shirt.

 

[Varun]

I can't fully pin it on him either. Sure he should have added a deep lying playmaker and a right winger instead of Pogba and Sanchez. Having said that SAF did left a weak side behind which was further weakened by Moyes's and LVG's erratic signings. The likes of Young, Darmian, Fellaini, Blind and co should have never been allowed to come close to the red shirt.

I'm in no way shortchanging him on the job at hand. But, adding a Sanchez when he wanted him for the left flank when mahrez was available and would have made us so much better is his call. The way we play is entirely on him too, these players are capable of a lot more. Sevilla are the definition of average, you don't need a team of stars to beat them. Not only did we fail to beat them, we never really looked like scoring. Thats on him.

 

[devilish]

I'm in no way shortchanging him on the job at hand. But, adding a Sanchez when he wanted him for the left flank when mahrez was available and would have made us so much better is his call. The way we play is entirely on him too, these players are capable of a lot more. Sevilla are the definition of average, you don't need a team of stars to beat them. Not only did we fail to beat them, we never really looked like scoring. Thats on him.

I agree. His arrogance post match doesn't help either.

 

[Quizierda]

It is all down to Mou and as long as this club sticks to this small team tactics coach nothing will change!

He will never question himself or his tactics and he's still living in the footballing world from 5-10 years ago. He's not adapted and never will, thus, we are poised with a style of coaching and playing only small teams play.

So congrats to the great 0-0 in Sevilla guys!

 

[Bubz27]

I don't have a huge issue playing like that against teams who have earnt it. Liverpool are one of those teams, unfortunately. They have a genuine attacking threat, one of the best in Europe. So yes, you do adapt to nulify them, whilst trying to be a threat yourself.

Yesterday Jose played the occasion, he didn't play the team. Sevilla are not a team that deserved that respect. They concede a lot. They have European know how, but that shouldn't be enough.

Jose played a champions league knockouts tie, instead of the team in front of him.

He did it often in the Europa League too. Anderlecht and Celts Vigo were much harder games than they probably should have been.

 

[ValenciaRocks]

The only thing that gives me some hope for Mourinho is how we started the season.

The way we played was much more positive. The players seemed to have much more sharpness about them. Not in energy but in thinking (match sharpness). We were much more balanced in our play. We attacked in numbers but steadied the ship when it was essential to do so.

Ive just watched the following video and, although its highlights, its easy to see that when we go at teams, we can punish them.


Rashford was absolutely brilliant in this game in particular. The likes of Matic and Pogba were higher up the pitch. Our wing backs were constantly getting forward and we were getting numbers into the box and making more runs to disrupt their defence.

We played like this for the majority of the first 8/9 weeks until we played Liverpool (away). Then we all know what happened there. After that game our performances were much more dire with exception of a few games.

Last night against Sevilla was another level though. Why on earth would you start with Sanchez if the aim of the game is to hoof the ball up field and hope something will come of Lukaku? It seems that Mourinho doesn’t know how to set us up against high pressing teams. We needed players who are comfortable on the ball, who can change direction quickly and think quickly. Mata should of started last night, no doubt about that.

One more season of this dull football and thats enough, regardless of what we win.

 

[Yorkeontop]

Much as I hate it at times, I have to say that's Jose's slow poison, bottom line football is still capable of winning trophies and always will be if you ask me. It's not sexy but its the poison we chose.

 

[Footyislife]

You simply can't play Matic and Pogba in a midfield 2. As we saw yesterday with that first goal, Matic is too slow, and Pogba has terrible positioning.

Play TFM, or Scotty as the DM or BWM at all times.

 

[Minimalist]

This is painfully obvious at this stage. Sanchez was the final litmus test.

It's how we're trained and coached off the pitch. When it comes to match-day it's all about whether certain individuals click and that's just not sustainable for long-term success.

 

[AR87]

Rashford was absolutely brilliant in this game in particular. The likes of Matic and Pogba were higher up the pitch. Our wing backs were constantly getting forward and we were getting numbers into the box and making more runs to disrupt their defence.

Alot of this IMO has to do with how much more active and fresh Valencia and Young were going forward. Valencia especially has been shocking with his lack of verve and effort to get forward on the overlap and provide width over the last couple of months and with how often whomever our RW is likes to drift infield that's a major problem for us. You cannot challenge at the top for leagues or CLs with the FBs we have at our disposal unless you just sit in a low block the entire time and try to hit on the counter and even that would require major luck.