Are you not ignoring how good Martial was the season after Jose left?
I think Martial has issues but I will always wonder what would have happened had Pep or Klopp got their hands on him at 19.
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I think Martial has issues but I will always wonder what would have happened had Pep or Klopp got their hands on him at 19.
good that season, but not great. Plus that was 3 years ago, he hasn’t looked the same since wouldn’t you agree?
But he has been dropped hasn't he? Regularly. Or are you not trying to argue that Martial isn't lazy? I find it pretty incredible that there are still some defending him and coming up with excuses for him.
I feel sorry for every young player who was at United in recent years and needed to develop, while being managed by Mourinho and Solskjaer. This goes for the likes of Pogba and Rashford too.
I feel the same way. Obviously these players do need to take some share of the blame as well, but Mourinho and Ole were two managers who proved absolutely terrible at developing these kids and putting the building blocks there to improve their game for the long-term. It was the main reason I wanted Ole out at the end of 20/21 even though we'd finished second. It was arguably too late for some of the players, but Greenwood in particular was the one I wanted to get proper coaching and management to develop him into the player that he could be. Unfortunately he ended up utterly fecking that up himself.
If I say that you are very harsh and lack of a little bit of humanity when you charge him for different “attitude issues”, do you think it very harsh as well?
Have you once known in your life someone who feels really down due to various reasons? He probably has the personality you don’t think any qualified manutd player should have. At least for me, I wish him resurrect his career, if not here then somewhere else. I still remember fondly the deadly Rashford- martial-Greenwood which gave so many hopes. Again, everyone is different.
We all knew that Ole wasn't the one to take us to the promised land. But we needed someone to pull the club back together from the brink after the few years of Jose. And provide us with a team that was more attacking-minded.
I'm not excusing him in any way, I'm making a general point.
Which is - if it wasn't clear - that it's impossible for random fans to know whether a player is actually "lazy" based on how he moves on a football pitch.
Many people do just that - all the time - but that doesn't make it any less illogical.
Whether Martial is genuinely "lazy", whether he has a genuinely poor attitude - I have no idea and I don't care. If that is "making excuses" for him, so be it. I've said several times in this very thread that I think he's a useless player - I don't know how much clearer I can be with regard to how I personally rate him.
Good points mostly. But,
1) I would rather have the present version because he most likely won’t be playing on the wing much anymore. If he stays he’ll likely be a striker and that’s why I said with better service we could see more impact from him.
2) It’s not just Martial who looks out of shape. But a manager like ETH who even goes so far as to monitor players’ diet regimes will most definitely have his squad in mint condition by the time the season starts.
End of the day don’t get me wrong, if someone is willing to buy him from us at a decent price I’m all for it. But if he does end up staying, I think he may prove many doubters wrong. He’s likely also gotten a good wake up call from his loan move to Sevilla who didn’t even bother keeping him any longer. Now that there’s a shortage of forward players he’ll definitely get his fair share of playing time which wasn’t the case this past season with Cavani & Lingard also around.
Ole seemed to be doing a good job coaching Mason until it all went tits up for him.
Like a new signing
And, respectfully, I think this is nonsense. If you see a player not chasing, not harrying, giving up on running players down etc would you not think them lazy? To say 'it's probably what the coach wants' seems to me more naive in that situation.
Not really. He had that one very good season, but he'd been fairly average for the next 18 months before all the shit went down. He didn't seem to really be adding to his game, he was basically still the exact same player he'd been in his break-through season just not playing as well.
we should just keep players now because “they are really down”?
he’s a professional footballer who is on £250k a week. I don’t know him personally, so I can’t speak about his mental health - but his general commitment and laziness is evident, multiple managers have brought this up as an issue.
I think it’s hard for some people to believe that certain players just want to do the bare minimum, while on enormous wages - which is why they keep making excuses for him.
Agree - this is highlighted even more now in the modern game where every player needs to press or track back.
He wasn't scoring as many goals but I thought his all round game was improving.
I think you’re applying lazy generally instead of in the context of playing football. He’s probably quite an active bloke, probably gets up early in the morning, goes for a run, gets shit done, the opposite of lazy, but you put him on a football pitch and he has no desire to put a shift in, he won’t track back, he stops making runs as soon as someone fails to find him, he’s got no graft on the pitch.
Hasn't it been revealed that Martial had been carrying some kind of injury for a while? Before he went out on laon and that it hadn't healed whilst he was on loan?
The contract situation with our players has been ridiculous imo, as in huge wages for youngsters etc which is going to be problematic when trying to sell players with years on their contract, even 1-2 years. However I am sure the injury situation and how we have been dealing with them has been raised a few times.
The contract situation with our players has been ridiculous imo, as in huge wages for youngsters etc which is going to be problematic when trying to sell players with years on their contract, even 1-2 years. However I am sure the injury situation and how we have been dealing with them has been raised a few times.
I don't know about this. If it looks like a duck etc.
All we can judge him on is what we see, and what we see is a lazy, disinterested looking footballer on the pitch.
Then you look at how he hasn't improved at all on the footballer he was when he joined, and it's not too much of a jump to conclude he probably isn't putting in a whole lot of effort off the field either.
Martial was never great. He was good for one possibly two seasons, but like you say, that was a long time ago now.
No one will buy him. He's that ****. We are stuck with him and Jones £300k a week....for NOTHING.
What a joke of club we are. These owners are killing us
So many players have failed in one way or another in the last 7-8 years it’s hard to direct my anger at anyone other than the owners and those that pick and then get the best out of the manager. Martial and Pogba in a team challenging, with competition to be the first team picking up trophies, motivated in a way it’s hard to replicate when you are fighting for 4th…every single player to some extend has struggled due to matters largely out of their control. Yes a player should worry about himself and his form first as Roy would say…but 2/3 seasons of doing that and still seeing nothing…and motivation to stay at the top can drop.
At Greenwood's talent levels, crediting the coach is nonsensical. Ole's track record at developing youth is abysmal, so why credit him for an anomaly.
You could have any one us coach Xavi Iniesta Messi when they were 17-19 and it wouldnt have made a difference in the slightest.
Feel like it's too late for him to kick on anymore, but I guess we won't be left with an option other than hoping one last time that ETH can get something from him! Such a shame how he panned out. Martial, like other players have to take a share of the blame, but for me the biggest reason has been the coaching and management. We've had a crazy amount of failed prospects, and that's not due to a lack of talent. It's due to how they were developed, the lack of structure or calmness in the teams they were part of which meant they couldn't develop properly, the mental side of things and feeling like a key player before they're good enough to be that plays a big part too.
We've had 3 prospects who for me, were can't fail prospects since Sir Alex retired... Januzaj, Martial, Greenwood. The fact that none have developed past a promising start for one reason or another is shocking, and that's down to the club management (obviously greenwoods situation is different... But it's not like he was stepping up under Ole or really moving on? He didn't have a position, his underlying stats weren't improving from when he first broke through, and he was developing bad traits).
Anyway, Martial will stay because there is no market for him, and we have to hope that Ten Hag can get a tune out of him. Martial needs to sort his fitness out of course. Him turning 27 in a few months is wild.
We've had 3 prospects who for me, were can't fail prospects since Sir Alex retired... Januzaj, Martial, Greenwood. The fact that none have developed past a promising start for one reason or another is shocking, and that's down to the club management (obviously greenwoods situation is different... But it's not like he was stepping up under Ole or really moving on? He didn't have a position, his underlying stats weren't improving from when he first broke through, and he was developing bad traits).
Anyway, Martial will stay because there is no market for him, and we have to hope that Ten Hag can get a tune out of him. Martial needs to sort his fitness out of course. Him turning 27 in a few months is wild.
Sorry, what gives Martial the divine right to be in a team challenging for the title or CL?
I'm sorry but the season before, we reached the EL final, 2nd in the PL and semi final of the league cup, which in my mind is challenging for trophies.
Remind me, how many goals did Martial score that season, because you seem to think he can motivate himself if we challenge for trophies?
It could be several things: he could be out of sorts, he could - to some degree - actually be following instructions, yes. He could be playing a less defined role (as in - he hasn't been given precise instructions/hasn't been coached very well).
(And - obviously, yes - he could also be a bit lazy, as in: not giving 100% because...he doesn't fancy giving 100%)
To believe - as some people clearly do - that the player just can't be arsed at all (and is blatantly demonstrating this) seems equally naive to me.
ETA A player who has completely checked out and doesn't want to put a shift in would show this in training - and shouldn't be playing, simple as. If he nevertheless gets selected, that's 100% on the management, I'd say. It would be absolutely idiotic to keep picking such a player for the match squad, nevermind the starting XI.
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I feel for a lot of our players who were signed or came through young. What kind of coaching have they had at United? Why would they have made that next leap with the constant changing of managers and approaches, the lack of real personal care in them?
I wonder how good Martial could have been. He's not good enough for United. But there's a nagging feeling that with a different set up to nurture and develop him, he could have been.
I wonder how good Martial could have been. He's not good enough for United. But there's a nagging feeling that with a different set up to nurture and develop him, he could have been.
Can’t see anyone buying him, so I’m hoping he can come into the team and prove a point. We’ve seen in the past the player he could be, so maybe we might see that? If he’s injury free during the pre season and gets fit, then he has every chance to impress. I think it will be blindingly obvious to him what he’s required to do to get a place in the side, and maybe he realises he needs to take this opportunity.
I can’t be arsed to Google it but did he not have some form of affair or marriage break up last year? Maybe he’s fully focused now?
Basically, I’m putting a lot of faith in our Tony to pull it round because if he does, what a player we will have on our hands maybe
I can’t be arsed to Google it but did he not have some form of affair or marriage break up last year? Maybe he’s fully focused now?
Basically, I’m putting a lot of faith in our Tony to pull it round because if he does, what a player we will have on our hands maybe
Being an introvert myself, I can sympathize. Martial came here in 2016 full of pep, and playing well. We were all excited by his performances. Van Gaal left, Jose turned up, Zlatan snagged his shirt number, and his home life was in a turmoil. Comes Ole and he's scoring again, but then there was more turmoil at the club. He's still only 26 or 27. ETH might like him and will give him a chance. The ability is there all right so maybe it's time for him to come good again, that is if he isn't fed up with United and wants a move.
So no coach gets any credit for bringing through the likes of Rooney, Ronnie etc .??????
On the plus side, it's unlikely we'll have to pay out on that Ballon d'Or clause.
Doesn't sound like an anomaly when you're naming a whole slew of players (filling in the etc here)
Well, yes, I believe its on the management as well. But so you believe that Martial has been performing the way he has because he's been out of sorts (for two and a half seasons); because he's been flowing instructions; or because he's lazy and/or not a PL player?
Sure, it's too late for him to kick on in terms of fulfilling his talent, but he can definitely turn it around in terms of application. I'm not expecting it in the slightest, but that would make him good enough to be a valuable player for us.
Are there any good examples of players who were lazy (or however benevolently people want to describe his lack of work ethic) changing tack and becoming professional in their mid-late 20s?
Are there any good examples of players who were lazy (or however benevolently people want to describe his lack of work ethic) changing tack and becoming professional in their mid-late 20s?
It means players of the same quality
A combination of all, to varying degrees?
Bottom line:
A) He's clearly not been good enough for whatever reason.
B) He has never shown enough to convince anyone that there's a genuine top class player there who has been - for whatever reason - held back by...something.
So - like I keep saying, at the moment he's a useless player on huge wages.
It would be a pure (and entirely unexpected) bonus if ETH can get something out of him.
You've changed the conversation from developing to "bringing through".
There's nothing specific in Greenwood's game I can point to and say he's improved on that through good coaching. There's definitely things I could point to when it comes to Ronaldo (likes his hunger for goals or his professionalism) or Van Persie (such as his concentration and off the ball movement) when I look back on their careers.
Greenwood got better because he's genetic freak/generational talent that got game time, grew older and gained experience. Crediting whoever is the manager at the time is like crediting a parent for a child's growth spurt.
I thought it was rather evident that Greenwood started going in the wrong direction in terms of his development. The season we finished second, both him and Rashford were greedy as feck and kept going for it rather than passing to players in better positions, gone downhill ever since. Thought his attitude on the pitch was awful at the start of the season when he was placed out wide, complete passenger.
In terms of Martial, i'll say the same as i said after the covid season where he was great for the vast majority of the season. He either builds on it or he doesn't and we should try to get rid. His injuries are becoming a serious problem, would surprise me if he'll last long under Ten Hag as the football we will aim to play will be a lot more demanding. Best we can hope for is that he gets a long and proper pre-season, stays injury free and can come off the bench and add something to the team, and that we can play him in the europa league matches.
We're stretched enough as it is
In terms of Martial, i'll say the same as i said after the covid season where he was great for the vast majority of the season. He either builds on it or he doesn't and we should try to get rid. His injuries are becoming a serious problem, would surprise me if he'll last long under Ten Hag as the football we will aim to play will be a lot more demanding. Best we can hope for is that he gets a long and proper pre-season, stays injury free and can come off the bench and add something to the team, and that we can play him in the europa league matches.
We're stretched enough as it is
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