Burn him anyway!
Antoine Griezmann
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That's okay too
Yeah, I can only name about 6 probably.
I didn't see him as a 10 when he joined and I don't see him as one now. He was brought in to make us better in the middle of the park. I didn't see a lot of Serie A but I was expecting a complete midfielder with guile, discipline and goals. I can see glimmers for sure but his positional discipline isn't good enough for a midfield 2.. so it looks like we are finding a place for him as a number 10.
Back to Griezman though, I'm sure he can be devastating from a wide position or a false 9, so he'd have plenty of games and rotations with Ibra too. I don't know if Griezmann plays as a 10, so maybe they won't clash. Would need to be corrected from a La Liga specialist though.
Man that double whammy would even top last summer.
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We're after Weigl? Now if that happens then they can't accuse you of calling obvious stuff
Yes. It's going to be lovely when that story break. But it's other top teams after him as well. But we are strong, so high hopes.
I disagree.
It has been Carrick behind Herrera and Pogba, Valencia covers the right side, Micky/Mata plays more as 10 than rw.
Or Herrera and Pogba as midfield 2, with Rooney/Micky/Mata behind Zlatan.
Pogba has mainly been playing on the left side of the central midfield, as attacking midfielder, not as 10.
Think i have seen him play as 10 in just a couple matches.
Do you think it hasn't picked up any traction becaiuse he's not a big name for headlines and doesn't play in a glamour position?
Maybe it's because he just signed a new contract and isn't going to leave in the summer?
No idea. But he is kind of big in Germany or atleast on for the future I guess. I admit I have not seen him, but I would be very happy to get him.
The thing is, Pogba plays as the most attacking in a three man midfield. That position is the one that is pushed further forward into a support striker role in a 4231, which is where Greizmann is generally considered to be his best.
So they don't play in the exact same position, but 'in theory' there is only room for one of those positions to be used at a time. For Greizmann to be at his best, Pogba would have to play in a two man midfield. Or for Pogba to be at his best, Greizmann would have to be played in one of the wider positions (or as the main striker). To some extent sacrificing one to get the best out of the other.
Of course, that is the theory. A theory which does have a strong foundation (I personally do have my worries), but I wouldn't be that surprised if Mourinho can ultimately make it work.
This is what I don't understand about all of this sacrificing Pogba narrative. Pogba doesn't score 20/30 goals a season so its not as if signing Griezmann would drastically lower his output. So what if Pogba doesn't get forward enough to score his 12 odd goals per season and he's stuck on 7 or 8? Griezmann more than makes up for that.
There's the other side of it to consider as well, playing Pogba in a two puts way more defensive responsibility on him then he's capable of, look at last night, as soon as we switched to playing with a #10 and him and Herrera were left to their own devices Hull twcie ran through the middle of us with ease and almost scored.
I've always thought that people got a bit too fixated on precisely replicating Pogba's Juventus position to get the best out of him. Granted, we did see an uptick from him when we changed to 433 but recent performances have shown he's well capable of playing badly in that position too. I still think his most impressive performance for United was his debut. At home to Southampton, in a 4231. We just need to find the right partner. Hererra's probably the closest we have right now but has a fair bit to learn, defensively, and can be a bit hit and miss with his passing. I really hope Herrera can progress in this regard. He's a smart player, so it's definitely possible. We'll probably end up buying someone to compete with him regardless. Pogba himself is also a work in progress, so will hopefully get a bit smarter too. There's no reason we can't find a way to make Pogba effective as one of two deep-lying CM's with the likes of Griezmann, Mikhi, Lingard, Martial and Mata buzzing around behind Ibra or (one day, hopefully) Rashford.
Get him the correct partner though and that responsibilty diminishes. We played Scholes in a midfield two for a successful period of time and for all the talent he had his tackling was atrocious.
He was poistionally much better than Pogba though, we'd basically be trying to do the whole "You must unlearn what you have learned" thing with Pogba if we forced him into a midfield 2. Basically he needs a workhorse with him and an organizer that will just sit and distribute and cover the back 4 behind him, it's tricky, Pogba is not a regular CM by any stretch, he's a unique hybrid.
That's not how you build a team, or develop your best players, though (and in terms of potential, Pogba is the best attacking midfield/central midfield hybrid in the world - which is why we paid all that money for him). It's not as simplistic as Pogba doesn't score 20 goals right now, so let's abandon the plan that brings the best out of him, and sign another player who will likely impede him in the future in central attacking zones. Even Frank Lampard (who's the best goalscoring midfielder in Premier League history) didn't fully develop the consistency to score 15-20 goals per season until the age of 25-26. And he played in a Pogba-esque attacking midfield/central midfield position under Mourinho, too:
We must persist with Pogba as that type of player who transitions between central midfield and attacking midfield - that's the best use of his entire skillset, despite the fallacy that he's tall and powerful, ergo he must be best in a midfield two. If we wanted to sign pivots for 4-2-3-1, we shouldn't have bothered with a unique talent like Pogba. Given Griezmann's similarity to Müller, we should've signed disciplined and tactically supreme box-to-box/holding midfielders like Schweinsteiger or Martínez instead:
Pogba could meta-morph into a top box-to-box, or he could stagnate and never realize his full attacking/central midfield potential. And £89 million is too big of a price to sign a player, and then experiment with the fundamentals of his game, particularly his impact in the final third:
Scholes had Keane next to him, and at the time noone played with midfield 3.
Playing with 2 midfielders now, when all teams have 3 in the middle, won't work at all.
I have you down as Woodward pretending being from Norway.
Yeah but if you told me Scholes could be a dicliplined deep laying midfielder at 23 I would have laughed at.you.
Pogba can learn the position. Dominate the centre of the park and supplement a dynamic attack. For all the good Pogba does I still think we lack that bit of spark in midfield if Pogba (contrary to others criticise him for) reigned it in a bit and only supplemented our attacking players, not become a vital player in that aspect
Everybody keeps saying midfield 3 this and that but all of that lends itself to Pogba in and around the box, not how he controls the midfield. The actual midfield control seems to fall to Carrick and Herrera in our current formation.
He doesn't have to be that star attacking player, if we want that player we can play two defensive midfielders and sign a number 10 or support striker who would provide a more consistant goal threat than Paul provides.
Griezmann ahead of Herrera and Carrick is basically what people expect from Pogba but Paul isn't as good as Antoine in that situation.
Finding Paul a defensive partner and edging him towards a new role is an easier task than keeping Paul in the midfield 3 and working a new signing in and around Ibra / Martial etc simply because Antoine seems to want to come here. We already have a goal scoring number 9. Thats not the problem. If we had Costa in our squad we would still suffer the same problems in supplenting his goals from other areas.
That's why Griezmann makes sense. He doesn't have to be number 9 to score and there are few of his kind available.
Also when people get laser specific in their alternative targets ala Icardi it tells me theres a severe lack of options available. Just assume Jose doesn't rate Icardi and the options look sparce...
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If Chelsea wins the league this season then the last two Premier League winners will have won with a two man midfield.
I refuse to accept Leicester played 442, they were sitting with everyone in defense, and hit a long ball at Mahrez and Vardy on the counter
Not followed Chelsea closely, thought they played 352?
Atleast they have more than 2 centrally most of the time.
3 at the back and two wingbacks. Allows the front 3 freedom to go forward but it is basically a midfield 2 although Kante in midfield is basically cheating.I refuse to accept Leicester played 442, they were sitting with everyone in defense, and hit a long ball at Mahrez and Vardy on the counter
Not followed Chelsea closely, thought they played 352?
Atleast they have more than 2 centrally most of the time.
Luiz comes forward with the ball but it's still Kante and Matic v the world.
Pogba might learn to play deeper in his latter years but I just don't see it any time soon, he looks so awkward trying to chase down runners and being chained to the deeper role. If we just wanted a normal CM we should have bought one, we didn't though, we opted for this unique talent that is neither a CM or a #10, and looking at how Mkhi plays on the RW with Valencia I imagine that is where Griezmann will play as when he's attackng he's through the center leaving all the wide duties to Tony.
To me we commited a lot to Pogba with the fee we paid for him because he can do things that regular CM's can't, so to then try and make him change all the things he does best makes no sense to me, we need to continue building as we are IMO otherwise we'll just create new defensive problems in an attempt to solve the goal scoring one.
http://www.marca.com/en/football/spanish-football/2017/02/02/58936e88468aeb691d8b465b.html
For what it's worth Marca saying our club directors want to sign him but Mourinho is unsure where he would fit him even if he thinks Griezmann is a talented player. Marca can be very biased but I remember them getting some international transfers right.
For what it's worth Marca saying our club directors want to sign him but Mourinho is unsure where he would fit him even if he thinks Griezmann is a talented player. Marca can be very biased but I remember them getting some international transfers right.
I really doubt that Mourinho doesn't want him given he's been linked to Mourinho teams for years and Mourinho's been ostracising Martial of late which'd give a space for Griezmann in starting XI.
If anything, it would make sense if it was the other way around.
The board would need convincing to shell out another 85 million on one player.
Apparently @Acquire Me isn't a credible source. What a fraud!
Which part is confusing: the source part or the fraud part?
The source part is because the Weigl thread on the transfer forum was shut down and the fraud part was because everyone is called a fraud in football nowadays (I meant it as a joke).
Meh.
Oh, right, I'd forgotten about the Weigl thread as it died so quick.
Why would it mean losing Martial? They play in different positions you said so yourself he's a second striker or 10.
Yeah.. bored and griez-dreaming at work
That just gets BVB more money when he goes.
New contracts in today's game means nothing tbf. Just means the team has more of a say in how much money they receive when they sell the player.
Yeah I was just thinking something similar. I pictured him chuckling to himself while typing that because he's Woodward's butler, or something.
I don't know how Jose is unsure where Griezmann will fit in his system. Clearly at the start of the season we played 4231 with Rooney behind Zlatan. Griezmann will replace Rooney to fullfil the 4231 system that Jose wants. Attacking mid with world class technical ability, pace and good goal scoring record to support Zlatan will be Jose's idealism of attacking midfield.
I believe the real issue is if Griezmann plays the Rooney position in a 4231 that means Pogba plays in a midfield 2....which he hasn't shown to be especially good at.
I believe Pogba can plays in midfield two. He just needs to adapt with it. Give him a proper no 6 as his partner and he will do well in midfield two. It worked when he played alongside Carrick in midfield two against Feyenoord, Swansea and Zorya. If we face a big club with strong midfield we can always switch the formation to 433.
Ignoring Pogba for just a minute. With Ibra as the number 9, do you think Griezmann would work well in tandem with him? I think they have the potential to be a devastating combination.Ditto, mate - since we signed Pogba for a world record fee, it's imperative that we get the best out of him. Unless we transition to a Diamond or even Christmas Tree, spending a comparable world record amount on Griezmann and then hoping that they work things out among themselves is asking for trouble when Pogba plays his best football in a midfield 3 and Griezmann plays his best football as a forward off the shoulder of the 9 - which are kind of mutually exclusive concepts in a 4-3-3 or a 4-2-3-1.
Considering that, Icardi would be great as the prototype #9 in a standard 4-3-3, and then we could buy someone like O Dembélé in 2018 (after the World Cup) to complete the attack in wider areas instead of Griezmann. If we wanted to sign Griezmann with a view to transition into 4-2-3-1, we should've signed proper midfield pivots like Kanté or Koke, not a unique midfielder/attacker hybrid like Pogba who shouldn't be asked to devolve into reductive roles.
This would be much better, but even as a big believer in the manager, I dunno if Mourinho has the balls to to implement it given his reluctance to use it against English teams or in big European games against teams with wingers even at Porto and Internazionale:
That way, Griezmann will be in his best role as the support striker, and we'll keep Pogba in something close to his best LCM/AM role instead of disrupting the fundamentals of his game:
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