Antonio Valencia... | Will wear #25 shirt from this point onwards by request

[Care_de_Bobo]

It's not an excuse, but I do think Valencia would've been better this season had Hernandez or Rooney played up front more often. Van Persie's been great obviously but he doesn't attack crosses like the other two do at their best.

Fans have constantly moaned about him not whipping it in at every opportunity and slowing down the play but I honestly don't think there would've been much point most of the time.

 

[Escobar]

It's not an excuse, but I do think Valencia would've been better this season had Hernandez or Rooney played up front more often. Van Persie's been great obviously but he doesn't attack crosses like the other two do at their best.

Fans have constantly moaned about him not whipping it in at every opportunity and slowing down the play but I honestly don't think there would've been much point most of the time.

Did you see Valencia's crosses? Not even Goliath could have attacked those crosses. Let's face it, he had a very poor season and really needs to up his game

 

[Plechazunga]

You're a bunch of fickle cnuts

Yes he's had a woeful season, painful to watch at times. And yes he was always limited. But that didn't stop him being extremely effective, and genuinely exciting, for most of the three years before this season.

 

[NotoriousISSY]

It's not an excuse, but I do think Valencia would've been better this season had Hernandez or Rooney played up front more often. Van Persie's been great obviously but he doesn't attack crosses like the other two do at their best.

Fans have constantly moaned about him not whipping it in at every opportunity and slowing down the play but I honestly don't think there would've been much point most of the time.

van Persie was getting a shitload of supply from the right wing occupied by Theo Walcott. Valencia always had a good range of crossing but this season he's just been poor. Personnel up front is no excuse seeing as he would've been feeding the deadliest forward in the league.

 

[Red Shorts]

He's been poor, no one can deny that. But let's give him next season to show this was a one off, and if that doesn't work out then go and call for his head. But for now I'm in the "one off" camp. He was excellent the past 2 seasons, and some of the comments I've seen here and the newbies have been nothing short of embarrassing.

 

[RedThaiDevils#7]

I think Valencia will be treated like Park, will be a reliable winger but he won't be United's first choice if we do sign a new replacement, not to mention Zaha does have the potential to fill in the gap.

But he'll be here for another 2 seasons then we'll see how he adapts, I doubt he'd be able to do what Giggsy did which is adapt his game but I hope Valencia proves me wrong.

 

[devilish]

All our wingers are decent at best. I dont know why Valencia is being singled out.

 

[Cina]

All our wingers are decent at best. I dont know why Valencia is being singled out.

An on form Valencia and Nani are hardly "decent".

 

[devilish]

An on form Valencia and Nani are hardly "decent".

They are good but they are hardly WC let alone unique like Ronaldo and Messi are.

When was the time they were in form btw?

 

[Cina]

They are good but they are hardly WC let alone unique like Ronaldo and Messi are.

When was the time they were in form btw?

So if you're not world class, you're decent? There's no middle ground is there?

Last season, obviously, and I knew you'd ask that question, it doesn't prove anything, just that they have both, for their own seasons, had poor seasons.

 

[devilish]

So if you're not world class, you're decent? There's no middle ground is there?

Last season, obviously, and I knew you'd ask that question, it doesn't prove anything, just that they have both, for their own seasons, had poor seasons.

In my opinion they border from good to decent. Nani has the talent to be special but he's too inconsistent and nowadays he gives the impression that he doesn't care enough. Valencia is all workrate and crosses but his form had declined drastically. When one considers all the first team wingers we had during SAF's reign they are at the worst two we had.

 

[Cina]

In my opinion they border from good to decent. Nani has the talent to be special but he's too inconsistent and nowadays he gives the impression that he doesn't care enough. Valencia is all workrate and crosses but his form had declined drastically. When one considers all the first team wingers we had during SAF's reign they are at the worst two we had.

Would you have been saying this one year ago?

 

[devilish]

Would you have been saying this one year ago?

Yes

Don't you think that Valencia/Nani were always worse then Beckham, Kanchelskis, Giggs, Sharpe and Ronaldo? I think they are. All those players were consistent good on a weekly basis.

 

[Bebe]

Serious history revision happening here. At various points in the past 2 years both Nani and Valencia have merited being included in "world's best winger (not counting THOSE two)" conversations. Yes they've both been wank for at least a year and that may be reason to doubt that they will regain form, but lets not just cancel out their previous accomplishments to suit the narrative.

 

[Ekeke]

I actually think Moyes will relish working with Valencia and any bizarre confidence issues Valencia might have somehow found this season should be blown away. Needs serious work on his crossing though

 

[devilish]

Serious history revision happening here. At various points in the past 2 years both Nani and Valencia have merited being included in "world's best winger (not counting THOSE two)" conversations. Yes they've both been wank for at least a year and that may be reason to doubt that they will regain form, but lets not just cancel out their previous accomplishments to suit the narrative.

In my opinion what this midfield lacks is consistency. When on form all our midfielders can show shades of Scholes, Giggs and Keane, however what made these legends great was the fact that they performed fantastically well for nearly all 90 minutes, season in season out.

We overrate our players too much these days. The white pele, the one who shits on Fabregas, the one whom you cant believe he's not Scholes. A good run is enough for today's fan to start saying that this or that player is world class.

Now if you want me to rate Nani and Valencia. Well the former has the talent but not the attitude. The latter used to have the attitude but he lacks the talent. Being a United flank man is a rare honour. Some fantastic talent had played there and you don't become great by just bullying the fully back and then loop a good cross.

 

[Care_de_Bobo]

van Persie was getting a shitload of supply from the right wing occupied by Theo Walcott. Valencia always had a good range of crossing but this season he's just been poor. Personnel up front is no excuse seeing as he would've been feeding the deadliest forward in the league.

Yeah but clearly Van Persie isn't as good as Rooney or Hernandez in the air, there are obviously other reasons for his poor form. Just because he's supplying a better player it doesn't mean it makes it easier for him, sure he might find it easier, or at least his crosses would look better, putting balls in for say Andy Carroll as opposed to Lionel Messi as ridiculous as that sounds(though obviously he'd rarely need to cross the ball if he was playing with Messi) . More to do with style rather than quality.

Did you see Valencia's crosses? Not even Goliath could have attacked those crosses. Let's face it, he had a very poor season and really needs to up his game

Yeah I wasn't using it as an excuse just a possible reason he was so poor, the injury probaby didn't help. It's not exactly productive to say he was shit and leave it at that, things don't happen without a reason.

 

[Cina]

Yes

Don't you think that Valencia/Nani were always worse then Beckham, Kanchelskis, Giggs, Sharpe and Ronaldo? I think they are. All those players were consistent good on a weekly basis.

Don't lie.

And you're sort of ... twisting everything around here. Your argument has gone from "they've only at their best been decent" to "they were never world class" to "they're not as good and consistent as some of the best wingers of the last twenty years."

 

[Mainoldo]

Yeah but clearly Van Persie isn't as good as Rooney or Hernandez in the air, there are obviously other reasons for his poor form. Just because he's supplying a better player it doesn't mean it makes it easier for him, sure he might find it easier, or at least his crosses would look better, putting balls in for say Andy Carroll as opposed to Lionel Messi as ridiculous as that sounds(though obviously he'd rarely need to cross the ball if he was playing with Messi) . More to do with style rather than quality.

I don't care whether it was for Paul Dickov or Duncan Ferguson.. His crossing has been Kieron Dyer this season.

 

[Plechazunga]

Unless you define 'world class' as 'at least as good as Cristiano Ronaldo', which is what Devilish appears to be doing, there's no way Nani's not world class.

 

[jojojo]

Unless you define 'world class' as 'at least as good as Cristiano Ronaldo', which is what Devilish appears to be doing, there's no way Nani's not world class.

What if you define world class as getting into the 25 man earth squad for the intergalactic cup? I think we've seen Nani there or thereabouts for a couple of seasons (not this one obviously) I don't think Valencia has ever been there.

That doesn't mean that Valencia hasn't been a good player for us, nor that he can't be again. There's more than one kind of winger and more than one kind of job that needs doing.

 

[devilish]

Unless you define 'world class' as 'at least as good as Cristiano Ronaldo', which is what Devilish appears to be doing, there's no way Nani's not world class.

I think that world class means playing top level football on a week in week out basis for a long period of time. For example Beckham was not as good as Ronaldo, but he was world class. Rio, Stam and Vidic were/are world class despite not being Baresi, Maldini or Beckenbauer

In few words

Rio, Vidic, Beckham, were world class
Baresi, Maldini, Beckenbauer, Ronaldo, Messi, Maradona, Best, Scholes, Giggs, Zidane - were exceptional talent

I cant see Nani or Valencia even close to that list

 

[Cina]

I hate the term world class, always have, ask 100 different people what it means and they'll all give you a totally different answer.

Whether Nani was/is world class is extremely debatable, but what devilish originally said is that he was "decent", which is ridiculous.

 

[devilish]

Don't lie.

And you're sort of ... twisting everything around here. Your argument has gone from "they've only at their best been decent" to "they were never world class" to "they're not as good and consistent as some of the best wingers of the last twenty years."

And I insist they were never world class.

Bullying the fullback and loop a good cross does not make you world class.
Doing something great once every 5 games doesn't make you world class.

On form Valencia/Nani are good players and some the things they may do is top class indeed. Out of form/normal conditions they are decent. However form is temporary while class is permanent. A truly world class player does exceptionally well on a nearly week in week out basis.

 

[Cina]

And I insist they were never world class.

Bullying the fullback and loop a good cross does not make you world class.
Doing something great once every 5 games doesn't make you world class.

On form Valencia/Nani are good players and some the things they may do is top class indeed. However form is temporary while class is permanent. A truly world class player does exceptionally well on a nearly week in week out basis.

Good for you.

So if they're not world class then in your eyes ... they're decent, right? That's what you said first, that they're decent. I don't care about the world class thing, i've no idea why you even brought it up.

 

[devilish]

Good for you.

So if they're not world class then in your eyes ... they're decent, right? That's what you said first, that they're decent. I don't care about the world class thing, i've no idea why you even brought it up.

Please do read the rest of the post.

 

[Cina]

I did.

You haven't denied them just being "decent" though, are they only decent, or better than decent?

 

[Adebesi]

I remember when I got in trouble with you Cina in the Nani thread it was (partly) over an ill advised use of the word decent.

 

[Cina]

I remember when I got in trouble with you Cina in the Nani thread it was (partly) over an ill advised use of the word decent.

Yeah but decent is a pretty easy word to understand, a decent player generally means "better than average, but not particularly good, just ... decent", most people would agree on that. World class however is pretty impossible to define. So I've no interest in debating world class with people cause we all have different opinions on what it means, but calling Nani and Valencia "decent" footballers just sparks a lightbulb above my head that can't ignore it.

 

[devilish]

I did.

You haven't denied them just being "decent" though, are they only decent, or better than decent?

I told you they shift from decent to good, definately not world class. You need to be consistent to be the latter. Now if you're comparing them to players playing in lower divisions/small EPL sides, then wow they are great players indeed. But the last time I've checked, this forum is about Manchester United and United tend to have high standards.

 

[Cina]

I told you they shift from decent to good, definately not world class. You need to be consistent to be the latter. Now if you're comparing them to players playing in lower divisions/small EPL sides, then wow they are great players indeed. But the last time I've checked, this forum is about Manchester United and United tend to have high standards.

No you didn't, you said they're decent. It was only later on that you decided to bring world class into it (again, I still have no idea why, it had nothing to do with what we were talking about), and then bring up some of our best ever wingers, when I was still only trying to argue the idea that they're not just "decent" players.

They're clearly better than decent, and on form are both excellent players, you know that, the original statement you made was outrageously harsh on them as footballers.

 

[acnumber9]

I told you they shift from decent to good, definately not world class. You need to be consistent to be the latter. Now if you're comparing them to players playing in lower divisions/small EPL sides, then wow they are great players indeed. But the last time I've checked, this forum is about Manchester United and United tend to have high standards.

If you need to be consistent to be world class then that rules out Ryan Giggs and more notably Zinedine Zidane. Wingers are notoriously inconsistent. Can you name a consistent one?

 

[Cina]

If you need to be consistent to be world class then that rules out Ryan Giggs and more notably Zinedine Zidane. Wingers are notoriously inconsistent. Can you name a consistent one?

Ronaldo.

Only world class winger ever, obviously.

 

[Red Shorts]

Saying Nani and Valencia have always been decent at best is just plain wrong. Valencia was brilliant last season, and Nani was brilliant the season before. To say they've never been more than that is because of false assumptions made based on this season's performance, which is completely inaccurate.

 

[acnumber9]

Ronaldo.

Only world class winger ever, obviously.

By the rules applied above it would seem so.

 

[shaggy]

Devilish talking rubbish in this thread. Nani and Valencia were definitely world class for a period and among the best wingers in the world.

 

[devilish]

If you need to be consistent to be world class then that rules out Ryan Giggs and more notably Zinedine Zidane. Wingers are notoriously inconsistent. Can you name a consistent one?

Both Giggs and Zinedine Zidane flirted between very good to virtually unstoppable. When Giggs was on fire, not even an on form Ronaldo would do the damage he did. I remember the way he literally humilated Juventus defense. It was one of the most organized defenses I ever seen + Lippi made sure he placed double marking on him (Di Livio) and still that defense fell like a sand castle.

 

[Mainoldo]

If you need to be consistent to be world class then that rules out Ryan Giggs and more notably Zinedine Zidane. Wingers are notoriously inconsistent. Can you name a consistent one?

To put it politely then Valencia is too limited of a player to be world class.

 

[Cina]

Both Giggs and Zinedine Zidane flirted between very good to virtually unstoppable. When Giggs was on fire, not even an on form Ronaldo would do the damage he did. I remember the way he literally humilated Juventus defense. It was one of the most organized defenses I ever seen + Lippi made sure he placed double marking on him (Di Livio) and still that defense fell like a sand castle.

I remember Nani humiliating Bayern, he must've been super consistent too.

 

[acnumber9]

Both Giggs and Zinedine Zidane flirted between very good to virtually unstoppable. When Giggs was on fire, not even an on form Ronaldo would do the damage he did. I remember the way he literally humilated Juventus defense. It was one of the most organized defenses I ever seen + Lippi made sure he placed double marking on him (Di Livio) and still that defense fell like a sand castle.

They were inconsistent and as per your rules they were not world class. Shame because I thought they were quite good.