He's off form but he'd still improve that Wigan team.
Antonio Valencia... | Will wear #25 shirt from this point onwards by request
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik @Rood and Imran @Annihilate Now! start with the good news by celebrating Manchester United Women's emphatic FA Cup win over Spurs at Wembley and the future of manager Marc Skinner.
Then it's the bad news and the ever worsening form of our Men with losses to Arsenal and Palace.
Finally the main debate - ETH Out now or keep him until the end of the season - if not longer. Are you Team Nik or Team Imran?
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How long do you give a player whos form has completely deserted him, and seems to just lack the technique needed at a top side.
I doubt he'll want to leave as he has tremendous character, hopefully Zaha and signing another wide player or giving our youth more chances will either spur him on or lead to his departure.
I really think he's been figured out/ surpassed and will never again devastate like he did last season, though I'd be delighted to be wrong.
I doubt he'll want to leave as he has tremendous character, hopefully Zaha and signing another wide player or giving our youth more chances will either spur him on or lead to his departure.
I really think he's been figured out/ surpassed and will never again devastate like he did last season, though I'd be delighted to be wrong.
He has seemed to have invented a new position 'defensive winger'.
I don't get this figured out stuff ?
So according to some folks he has been figured out 4/5 seasons into his prem career. Bloody hell some managers and players need sacking for that.
He's just short on confidence and just not taking on his man enough. Plus his crossing has gone bad for some reason. He showed improvement against Villa and in the first half today created a chance for Jones but on the whole his biggest problem this season has been his refusal to take on and just doesn't bulldoze past his man as he used too.
So according to some folks he has been figured out 4/5 seasons into his prem career. Bloody hell some managers and players need sacking for that.
He's just short on confidence and just not taking on his man enough. Plus his crossing has gone bad for some reason. He showed improvement against Villa and in the first half today created a chance for Jones but on the whole his biggest problem this season has been his refusal to take on and just doesn't bulldoze past his man as he used too.
Some posters on here wouldn't even register that. He only had one player to hit, he could have atleast had a look.
Nothing has been "found out" about him.It's not like he's some sort highly technical player anyway, he has just been playing badly this season in general
He's had a woeful season and I can't for the life of me understand how he keeps on starting. He's become a liability going forward
It doesn't look to me like defenders are playing him differently than before, though. He's making unforced errors.
He'll be here next season because he serves a good purpose even when offering very little offensively, he is very disciplined defensively and allows a good balance to the side. the important thing when he is off is for the left hand side of the attack to compensate going forward and they did in the second half.
We will have at least pre season and the beginning of the next season to see whether the old Valencia can return till then he will start because he add balance to the side no matter how bad he is going forward.
We will have at least pre season and the beginning of the next season to see whether the old Valencia can return till then he will start because he add balance to the side no matter how bad he is going forward.
If we were looking to sign a winger, and it was a choice between Valencia and Nani, and we got Valencia - this place would go into meltdown
At the start of the season, when Valencia had been our best winger 2 of the 3 seasons he has been here. Don't think so.
And as for right now after this season, don't think the place would be overly happy signing either tbh.
Couldn't disagree more.
In terms of being figured out I mean that they know what to expect, he achieved a status or profile as a devastating winger that made teams pay more attention to stopping him - double marking Etc.
With Valencia it's easier - it's classic, people did it to Ronaldo, Bale's getting it now but those players have the technique and skill to overcome it which IMO Valencia lacks.
He's a tryer and a form player for sure but when he beats a man how does he do it? He knocks it and runs or dummys to cross and then runs, always down the line. Defenders now just step off a yard and show him down the line, ready to go with him and stand him rather than diving in. Most of the time they win the ball, ergo Valenca now just faces up and enivitably goes backwards to Raf or inside to Rooney or others.
He relies on his physical attributes far more than the technical ones and is great at crossing when in behind drilling or whipping it with pace but as witnessed when tasked with picking out a player with men in front of him - a more Beckham-style cross if you will - he usually fails, often spectacularly.
The fact that defenders have figured him out, changed the way they play him or simply paid him more attention as a threat (whatever you want to call it) has affected his confidence and form, but that's the result not the symptom. Form and a level of performance doesn't disappear for a whole year without reason.
He was poor today.
Nani put in a higher amount of decent crosses today than Valencia has all season.
Nani put in a higher amount of decent crosses today than Valencia has all season.
This whole defenders figuring out Valencia makes no sense at all. Why has it taken 3 years for them to figure him out when most knew what he was about after his very first game for us? He just hasn't played well for whatever reason and needs to be dropped for a while
Yeah, simultaneously by every single full back and team in the league...remarkable.
Today was hugely disappointing for Valencia. I thought he'd finish the season more positively after that game last week but that was more of the same unfortunately.
I thought he was alright today. Obviously not great. His passing was good, had a couple good runs. His crossing was off again, though he did whip in a brilliant one to whacky Phiw. Defensively firm as usual. Very entertaining match the second half that Antonio seemed to be a big part of. I think Ferguson sticks with him so much because he probably sees more into him than the footballing geniuses.
Before last season he was regarded as a good winger, nothing special - check his stats. 2011/2012 was his best ever season by a stretch, second in the league for assists with 13 and career high of 6 goals. Such a good season had him being spoken of with the best wingers in the world (a bit of a stretch IMO) that kind of acclaim guarantees that every other team in the league will be paying you extra attention.
If you don't agree with that then I don't think there's much to talk about here. If you don't think the staff of every professional team single out strong opposition players and target a way to nullify them then you are raving. With Valencia it's a simpler job than most.
Ask yourself how does he beat a man? Takes him down the line with pace.
Ask yourself how best to defend that? Advise LB to give him a yard, stand off him, show him down the flank and be on your toes to go with him. Don't commit just stay with him and make him play the hard ball.
result: Shit form!
I think he does it because he likes him, and he wants him to play through it. He has a great attitude and personality no doubt and he's always very solid defensively which is itself a huge asset to us.
But he wouldn't be signing Zaha if he was was convinced Valencia would come back from a very poor season.
VERY risky management playing an off form player constantly instead of others who are much better. It is very easy for players to lose form/moral from such management. When they don't start they are told "perform better than the rest and you will start." - When they perform better than Valencia they still don't start.
I would be very pissed off having became better than the starter, then still not getting any time.
The point is you could've told your defenders to do that from the moment we signed him. Even when he wasn't one of the best wingers in the world he was still an important outlet for us in attack so the opposition fullback had to have some plan to deal with him. If he was being double teamed every game and struggling because of it then that'd be an argument but he's hitting crosses straight into the crowd despite being in acres of space in practically every game. That's got nothing to do with defending.
Agreed, one day we'll retire the number 7 in his honour.. patience is needed.
After years trying to crack such a complex riddle, you can't blame whoever solved the conundrum for bragging about it to all the other teams in the league.Yeah, simultaneously by every single full back and team in the league...remarkable.
Today was hugely disappointing for Valencia. I thought he'd finish the season more positively after that game last week but that was more of the same unfortunately.
He's a bit rubbish I reckon. Needs to shift his entire body to move the ball. Never seen someone so stiff.
Anyway, great attitude and all that, and of course we support our own players - but I don't think it's good. The things/problems that I see are not 'form' issues, they are as a result of a lack of tools.
Anyway, great attitude and all that, and of course we support our own players - but I don't think it's good. The things/problems that I see are not 'form' issues, they are as a result of a lack of tools.
Ask yourself did every man and his dog know how Valencia beat his man?
Ask yourself did every full back not know before before coming to a game how Valencia beat his man?
If you are suggesting full backs only decided to 'figure' him after last season then I think you're well of the mark. Did Ashley Cole not know how to stop Valencia? Of course he did but time and again Valencia roasted because he was that good with what limited ability he had
Would you? Bless. Probably not cut out for professional sports so.
Out of interest, why would Fergie deliberately not play someone who has "become better" than Valencia? Perhaps it's not quite as black and white as you think?
So many short memories on here. Never ceases to amaze.
I blame the government for putting flouride in the water.
Something about him makes me want to keep supporting him. Now as for Young........
Whilst I agree that it's a multitude of factors and we're seeing Valencia at the lowest ebb of his confidence - which is why almost every cross is so poor now. The reason for his dip in form and loss of confidence is due(along with other things, warranted) to an increased awareness of what he is going to do to you.
Whilst it was always obvious what his trick was, it wasn't always so effective, which is the point you're ignoring. When he had such a good season devastating LB's with pace it became more of an issue or topic for other teams to combat when playing us.
Take for example Bale at spurs, the focus on him allows Lennon more freedom on the other flank because in some ways he's seen as less likely to hurt you... which kind of makes it easier for him to hurt you.. if you get me. Up until his recent injury Lennon has been surprisingly good for spurs, in part to this. To apply it to us; when Ronaldo, Rooney, Nani (in form) are on the park they may draw the focus of the opponents defensive efforts, allowing Valencia more freedom on the other side. When he has a great season and is the one being more keenly defended, he is found lacking.
I agree now it's probably more a confidence thing than how defenders are playing him, but it was the reason why he became ineffective in the first place. I very much doubt full backs fear him this season.
Think Primary and Secondary.
He was playing with more freedom, less defensive attention and more confidence.
Now he has none of those things and his technical deficiencies are painfully apparent.
I'd love him to come good, I think through his whole career he has been competent, occasionally brilliant and thoroughly likeable. I just don't think he will unfortunately.
ffs so it took them a fecking long while to "get" Valencia's game.Either what you say is implying that a lot of pro players are absolute Ihni binni dimi diniwiny anitaime and their managers included or you're completely wrong.
Watch videos of Valencia of last season to see that he is another universe to the current one.
I think you're completely wrong about him
His confidence is the main issue more than anything else. He barely even takes his man on anymore, the aggressiveness is missing from last season
I've never particularly rated him, and did not want us to sign him either. Not everyone who doesn't rate Valencia is short-sighted or whatever. In fact, in my view - he's actually quite obviously not a very good player. Like, just watch him.
Even if your point was valid, which it isn't, then one whole year is not 'short memory'. Especially when his 'brilliance' that is so often referred to was also just about a year long, not like he's been a top player for years. Anyway, assuming he was, then perhaps he just used to be good but isn't.
I fully understand that generally, United fans will put a positive spin on any bad performance. 'Maybe he's injured?', 'Ah, he was played in the wrong role' etc - but with Valencia, his limitations appear more obvious than that to me. he simply can't do that much, and denying that almost equals blindness to me. He shouldn't be a Manchester United regular in my view, simple as.
agree to disagree bud, though I don't think you've thoroughly understood my point.
I don't think they ignored Valencia altogether, allowing him to sneak past them. I think when you play a team you rank their threats and set your team up accordingly. You identify key battles and areas that will result in a win or loss. After having such a good season, Valencia drew more attention. Don't you think people would be especially concerned about stopping "one of the best wingers in the world" rather than "that ecuadorian chap from bottom half wigan"?
Of course it's as simple to say he played well last season and hasn't remotely this season.
You can remember back "a whole year"?
Maybe I was harsh to criticise your memory.
Maybe I was harsh to criticise your memory.
Because they stand off him and invite him to, knowing what he will do and being ready to defend it. Any fear is gone and they know him as a one trick pony.
I agree though his attitude is different, he looks defeated and resigned to always going backwards or sideways which is the main reason he won't regain his form.
In his first season he was probably our second best attacker. Certainly in the first half of the season before Nani turned things around. I obviously agree that he was more dangerous last season than he was in his first but he was still a danger. If the solution to that danger was as simple as telling the LB to stand off him and show him down the flank then they would've done that, surely? Why would they choose not to?
I agree in a way but at the same time a lot of his game defencies have nothing to do with the defending played against him.His crossing for instance, it's a lot less accurate than in previous seasons, his confidence isn't on the same level.Also he wasn't great just last season so that the defenders adjusted their game in this one, he was also good before that.I find it hard for them to take this long to figure him out.
I didn't see the game but I assume he's now shit again cause of it, going by reactions?
This argument happened a while ago in here as well, I really can't believe people think his poor form is down to defenders/managers figuring Valencia out. It would involve literally every single left back/manager he's faced this season suddenly figuring out a perfect plan and execution of that plan to stop him despite them not being able to do so his previous 6 seasons or so.
Again, are you suggesting it's taken 3 years for them to figure something as simple as that out? Something most United fans have always known.
Managers and coaches work on every single single player before a game and are you suggesting that it's taken them 3 years to figure out what Valencia does on the field? If so most of them need firing asap.
And in his very first season a lot was made about his link up play with Rooney and how he was the main provider of goals for Rooney. It's not as if his form came out of nowhere last season.
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