[zaafi]

Has to go down as one of the worst signings in United history. Plenty of company, but I think he clears the rest of the list.

A bit too early for that, no? He hasn't even played a full season for us yet.

 

[santeria13]

Yes and no. It matters mostly to smaller clubs who don't have a lot of money to spend. We spend hundreds of millions every summer. Our issue is that we have been buying average players for years, the problem isn't the fee itself. This is why we need a DoF.

Well on average, that's still 1/3 of our transfer budget or so. That's a massive portion to blow. It wasn't exactly like he was lighting up the Eredivise either. To compare, Madrid spent 88m on Bellingham. I agree that it's the choice of players that's the main problem, but my point is you can't just go throwing 1/3 of your transfer budget on a 'maybe' player, regardless of how big or small you are.

 

[zaafi]

Well on average, that's still 1/3 of our transfer budget or so. That's a massive portion to blow. It wasn't exactly like he was lighting up the Eredivise either

I agree. It was way too much to pay for him, and we only have ourselves to blame as we could have gotten him for half the price if we'd just bought him earlier. The other problem is that there really aren't a lot of great available right wingers either. We could talk about the Bowens and Olise's all day, but ultimately they're not good enough either and we should be aiming for better wingers. I'd take a look at Jeremy Doku from Rennes now.

 

[united_99]

I remember very well 10-12 years ago a young 20 year old attacking academy player called Danny Welbeck broke through at United. Zero fee, low wages, SAF played him even in some big games despite having Rooney and later RvP, as that kid worked hard, pressed, followed instructions and was tactically flexible. It’s no surprise that even now he is playing for Brighton.
However a lot of our fans weren’t happy with him at all because he was an attacking player, but was good at defending/working hard/running a lot, etc.
10+ years later our two expensive attacking signings on high wages - Antony and Mount - are being praised for similar stuff Welbeck was criticised for. Difference being that fans have every right to demand more from expensive signings than from an academy kid, especially one who just broke through.

 

[iammemphis]

Was pretty evident towards the end of the season he was getting worse than better. The only way things can change are if Hojlund comes in and all of a sudden makes Antony look like the player we hoped he'd be, by always being in the right place at the right time. Antony hasn't had a proper target man striker to play off imo.

 

[iammemphis]

I remember very well 10-12 years ago a young 20 year old attacking academy player called Danny Welbeck broke through at United. Zero fee, low wages, SAF played him even in some big games despite having Rooney and later RvP, as that kid worked hard, pressed, followed instructions and was tactically flexible. It’s no surprise that even now he is playing for Brighton.
However a lot of our fans weren’t happy with him at all because he was an attacking player, but was good at defending/working hard/running a lot, etc.
10+ years later our two expensive attacking signings on high wages - Antony and Mount - are being praised for similar stuff Welbeck was criticised for. Difference being that fans have every right to demand more from expensive signings than from an academy kid, especially one who just broke through.

Oh please. Welbeck was never good enough for us and you're using him as a stick to beat our team with? He went to Arsenal and was shite for them too. Next you'll be suggesting we sign Calvert Lewin. And feck knows where you've seen any praise for Mount.

 

[Fortitude]

Wasn't this all very, very clear before we even signed him? That entire transfer thread was fecking insane. People were wanking themselves silly over one of the most underwhelming highlight reals for a winger I'd ever seen.

It was like watching a group of people masturbating to granny porn, and trying to convince everyone else how great it is. Almost dystopian.

If you're being objective, a player like this can't really be judged in absolute terms until the conditions that optimise his game are provided. What he was analysed as is in that thread was a player who had overlapping cover (something he absolutely, desperately needs and relies upon) and lots of fluid movement and options on his inside channel. In this sense, he gets to weave, bob and move his way into effective positions very easily and he really isn't bad at that, even for us. The problem is everything he had to do was attenuated at Ajax - shorter dribbling actions, shorter, easier passes, less reliance on his individualism, which is why most of his clips were very short and snazzy rather than massive runs or actions.

Essentially, the more expansive a game he is asked to play, the more he will struggle because, as we see here, he isn't fast, he isn't strong, and his dribbling is not at all effective over anything but the first 5-10 yards.

My take on the player was that we'd be striving to give him those exact same conditions rather than have him play into what we do (after all, catering to your most expensive player is logical), but that hasn't happened, so he's having to do so much more than he did at Ajax with so little tools and ability to complete those tasks. Taking an overlapper away from him, is the coveted 'right leg' some want him to have; making him pass over larger distances is asking him to be better at passing than he ever had to be at Ajax, and so on and so forth. None of it is complex, and most of this should be patently obvious in assessment. The rub is, we as a fanbase don't really care for the whys and wherefores of what is wrong, and even if his conditions are suboptimal, it is not unreasonable to think the player can adapt and tolerate until what he needs is provided. Another issue is, Antony is not of the talent and ability level where you cater to him as opposed to giving someone else a go in his position - Sancho, is the kind of talent you should cater for, imo, not Antony.

As @amolbhatia50k stated in his post, he need to try and use those on inside more than he does and become a better player in combination football; he can't beat any PL FB he is isolated with, so simply pass and move; you don't have to be a 1-on-1 maestro to be a class winger, that's a very linear interpretation of the role reserved for the prototypical "flying winger" who we've been very fortunate to have had some of the very best of all time grace our club - I think that tends to lead to a railroading when it comes to expectation; if it's not a flying winger, the tolerance lessens a great deal, I feel.

I don't wish for my post to be misconstrued; Antony has been way below the required standard and we can't be expected to twiddle our thumbs whilst the detriment to the team is evident. Not only that, we have a plethora of right-sided players who deserve a chance to make that position their own if Antony is fluffing his lines. With that said, if there is a desire to see what he can do at his best, the components to enable him have to be there, without them he's always going to be limp(er) and more incomplete than the player he was bought to be. I'll reiterate, Antony's not the player I think warrants special privileges, but at the same time, if you're going to go so far in for him (price) why didn't/haven't we worked on optimising his game instead of demanding far, far more of him than he is used to (and probably capable of)?

 

[Cassidy]

If you're being objective, a player like this can't really be judged in absolute terms until the conditions that optimise his game are provided. What he was analysed as is in that thread was a player who had overlapping cover (something he absolutely, desperately needs and relies upon) and lots of fluid movement and options on his inside channel. In this sense, he gets to weave, bob and move his way into effective positions very easily and he really isn't bad at that, even for us. The problem is everything he had to do was attenuated at Ajax - shorter dribbling actions, shorter, easier passes, less reliance on his individualism, which is why most of his clips were very short and snazzy rather than massive runs or actions.

Essentially, the more expansive a game he is asked to play, the more he will struggle because, as we see here, he isn't fast, he isn't strong, and his dribbling is not at all effective over anything but the first 5-10 yards.

My take on the player was that we'd be striving to give him those exact same conditions rather than have him play into what we do (after all, catering to your most expensive player is logical), but that hasn't happened, so he's having to do so much more than he did at Ajax with so little tools and ability to complete those tasks. Taking an overlapper away from him, is the coveted 'right leg' some want him to have; making him pass over larger distances is asking him to be better at passing than he ever had to be at Ajax, and so on and so forth. None of it is complex, and most of this should be patently obvious in assessment. The rub is, we as a fanbase don't really care for the whys and wherefores of what is wrong, and even if his conditions are suboptimal, it is not unreasonable to think the player can adapt and tolerate until what he needs is provided. Another issue is, Antony is not of the talent and ability level where you cater to him as opposed to giving someone else a go in his position - Sancho, is the kind of talent you should cater for, imo, not Antony.

As @amolbhatia50k stated in his post, he need to try and use those on inside more than he does and become a better player in combination football; he can't beat any PL FB he is isolated with, so simply pass and move; you don't have to be a 1-on-1 maestro to be a class winger, that's a very linear interpretation of the role reserved for the prototypical "flying winger" who we've been very fortunate to have had some of the very best of all time grace our club - I think that tends to lead to a railroading when it comes to expectation; if it's not a flying winger, the tolerance lessens a great deal, I feel.

I don't wish for my post to be misconstrued; Antony has been way below the required standard and we can't be expected to twiddle our thumbs whilst the detriment to the team is evident. Not only that, we have a plethora of right-sided players who deserve a chance to make that position their own if Antony is fluffing his lines. With that said, if there is a desire to see what he can do at his best, the components to enable him have to be there, without them he's always going to be limp(er) and more incomplete than the player he was bought to be. I'll reiterate, Antony's not the player I think warrants special privileges, but at the same time, if you're going to go so far in for him (price) why didn't/haven't we worked on optimising his game instead of demanding far, far more of him than he is used to?

Basically you are saying he is a limited player who can only perform in a specific setup / optimal set of conditions. Not exactly the type of player you want at United

 

[That_Bloke]

Mahrez was about 24 when he exploded in that title season with Leicester.

Nah.

If you saw Riyad's first season when we still were in the Championship and you'd instantly know that there was something special about that 22 years old skinny guy with a horrible haircut, a diamond in the rough. Not only his flair and ability to beat his FB (something that's becoming increasingly rare in the PL), but also his decision making and passing, even if the end product was still a bit lacking. He suffered in 2014/15 in the PL at first because of the higher level of the opposition, our 3-5-2 set-up, and we were far from being a functional team, but still was key to our great escape that season. Then came Ranieri who ditched Pearson's 3-5-2 for a classic 4-4-2 and built our attack around Mahrez, basically allowing him to do whatever the feck he wanted, going forward. Mahrez also had Simpson as RB. Simpson would have died of a stroke if he crossed the halfway line which meant that Mahrez was pretty much on his own on the right flank. He did have Vardy to aim at tough.

I see none of that in Antony. The only common point Antony and Mahrez share is that they're both left footed RWs, the latter is light-years ahead in about everything else.

 

[Nani Nana]

I wonder whether Bruno's positioning and risk taking somewhat harm Antony? That's two players with a high risk, high reward game next to each other.

Would love to see Mount start a game instead of Bruno in attacking midfield and see the difference in Antony's output

 

[Nani Nana]

Nah.

If you saw Riyad's first season when we still were in the Championship and you'd instantly know that there was something special about that 22 years old skinny guy with a horrible haircut, a diamond in the rough. Not only his flair and ability to beat his FB (something that's becoming increasingly rare in the PL), but also his decision making and passing, even if the end product was still a bit lacking. He suffered in 2014/15 in the PL at first because of the higher level of the opposition, our 3-5-2 set-up, and we were far from being a functional team, but still was key to our great escape that season. Then came Ranieri who ditched Pearson's 3-5-2 for a classic 4-4-2 and built our attack around Mahrez, basically allowing him to do whatever the feck he wanted, going forward.

I see none of that in Antony. The only common point Antony and Mahrez share is that they're both left footed RWs, the latter is light-years ahead in about everything else.

Sorry but I do not think young Mahrez would do well in United's current setup. Leicester was an optimal stepping stone for him

 

[Fortitude]

Basically you are saying he is a limited player who can only perform in a specific setup / optimal set of conditions. Not exactly the type of player you want at United

Well there's an issue amongst the fanbase in and of itself - a specific setup and system was what Ten Hag was apparently striving for and Antony was but one piece of a much larger puzzle with the pieces being slotted into place as and when they could be acquired.

 

[The Irish Connection]

I agree. It was way too much to pay for him, and we only have ourselves to blame as we could have gotten him for half the price if we'd just bought him earlier. The other problem is that there really aren't a lot of great available right wingers either. We could talk about the Bowens and Olise's all day, but ultimately they're not good enough either and we should be aiming for better wingers. I'd take a look at Jeremy Doku from Rennes now.

Agree.. doesn’t seem to be many glaring names. But I think we do still need a better right winger.
Thanks for highlighting Doku. He looks like he can beat his man with pace and power which is what we need.

 

[united_99]

Oh please. Welbeck was never good enough for us and you're using him as a stick to beat our team with? He went to Arsenal and was shite for them too. Next you'll be suggesting we sign Calvert Lewin. And feck knows where you've seen any praise for Mount.

He was good enough considering we weren’t relying on him and he cost us nothing. But even now I would happily take him ahead of Antony. And Mount too, if he doesn’t improve our midfield balance or makes Bruno a worse player (by playing in his position).

 

[That_Bloke]

Sorry but I do not think young Mahrez would do well in United's current setup. Leicester was an optimal stepping stone for him

And you would be absolutely right. However I'm talking in terms of ability, not tactical setup. You can't have watched the two and think that they're on par.

 

[Cassidy]

Well there's an issue amongst the fanbase in and of itself - a specific setup and system was what Ten Hag was apparently striving for and Antony was but one piece of a much larger puzzle with the pieces being slotted into place as and when they could be acquired.

5 of the players in the 11 are his. Soon to be 6 when Hojlund starts

 

[Guapa]

Time to start producing on a regular basis now or take a seat on the bench.Just not seeing it with this kid.

 

[Red Shorts]

Would drop him for Sancho at this rate, just not seeing any creativity here. All way too predictable

 

[Fortitude]

5 of the players in the 11 are his. Soon to be 6 when Hojlund starts

I'm not sure what your point is?

 

[crossy1686]

Has to go down as one of the worst signings in United history. Plenty of company, but I think he clears the rest of the list.

And I thought Sanchez was the worst but we’ve had a few after him that might actually win that award in a couple of seasons

 

[HookedOnAPhelan]

I remember him looking decent towards the end of last season. He’s definitely better than what he performed yesterday

Obviously. Most of our players are.

I haven't given up on him.

 

[united for life]

I wonder whether Bruno's positioning and risk taking somewhat harm Antony? That's two players with a high risk, high reward game next to each other.

Would love to see Mount start a game instead of Bruno in attacking midfield and see the difference in Antony's output

i think Antony would still run with the ball towards the full back, cut to the middle and either pass the ball backwards or shoots it wide/hit the woodwork.

 

[Superunknown]

I do laugh at how we seem to find the least skilful, un-Brazilian Brazilians. Kleberson, Telles, Fred, this guy. We just don't get it right.

 

[Cassidy]

I'm not sure what your point is?

Hes built half the team and he also heavily rates some of the rest, made one captain and just signed off on a massive contract for another. So its not really a great excuse to say he is only half way through constructing a team that can play his system and one that Antony can thrive in.

 

[matys]

What worries me the most is that he's been here over a year and not even one aspect of his game has improved. Still can't beat his opponent, still can't shoot, still doesn't use his right foot, still slows down our play. What does he do in the training sessions, practicing his trademark roullet spin?

 

[darko]

In the first two matches he's set up Rashford for three point blank chances with no conversion from Rashford. Why is Antony getting all the stick?

 

[darko]

5 of the players in the 11 are his. Soon to be 6 when Hojlund starts

Which of the five do you have an issue with?

 

[Cassidy]

Which of the five do you have an issue with?

I said I had an issue?
I was saying we cant say Antony is not performing because the team needs to be setup for him to do so when half the team were signed by his manager

 

[Fortitude]

Hes built half the team and he also heavily rates some of the rest, made one captain and just signed off on a massive contract for another. So its not really a great excuse to say he is only half way through constructing a team that can play his system and one that Antony can thrive in.

Half a team isn't a full team... as this is about Antony, the example of that is that there is still no overlapping FB and still no striker running the line - Hojland may or may not be the answer, but he is young, and he also hasn't featured in a team with Antony yet.

 

[Cassidy]

Half a team isn't a full team... as this is about Antony, the example of that is that there is still no overlapping FB and still no striker running the line - Hojland may or may not be the answer, but he is young, and he also hasn't featured in a team with Antony yet.

AWB actually overlaps quite often. Overlapping is also a tactical setup if the manager wants the fullback to overlap more often, he can make that happen

 

[Fortitude]

AWB actually overlaps quite often

He isn't anything like a proper modern overlapping FB.

 

[Red-17]

Half a team isn't a full team... as this is about Antony, the example of that is that there is still no overlapping FB and still no striker running the line - Hojland may or may not be the answer, but he is young, and he also hasn't featured in a team with Antony yet.

Wan Bissaka has probably been our biggest threat from wide areas this season out of Antony, Garnacho, and Shaw. He has overlapped plenty of times as well.

 

[Cassidy]

He isn't anything like a proper modern overlapping FB.

But Ben White is? Its down to the manager

 

[Fortitude]

Wan Bissaka has probably been our biggest threat from wide areas this season out of Antony, Garnacho, and Shaw. He has overlapped plenty of times as well.

That hasn't been refuted, but you still cannot compare his output (or game) to a proper overlapping FB.

 

[Cassidy]

That hasn't been refuted, but you still cannot compare his output (or game) to a proper overlapping FB.

Enlighten us all with an explanation because the output is irrelevant when it comes to how it impacts Antonys ability to be effective.

The fact AWB always looks more dangerous down the right wing than Antony is a bit worrying no?

 

[Ash_G]

He isn't "a project". He is playing every game the same way. What he brings to the table is very clear, just as his deficiencies. He's been here one full season and has not improved on any aspect of the game.

Garnacho is a project, because the things he's not very good at can be improved with coaching and game time. This isn't the case with Antony.

I think he is a project in the sense that he is someone who ETH clearly thinks must be able to take his game up a level (I too have my doubts on this). My wider point though is that whether it's Anthony or Garnacho, both are players who aren't at the level we need them to be in terms of playing at the top level and in our current team that is an issue. Normally that would be fine, e.g. you can accommodate a player with potential so in time they can realise that, but to do that you need to be confident that they senior players are reliable and will get the job done and I don't think we can rely on that in our team which is part of the problem. All of our attacking players are erratic and will frequently make bad decisions and that is an issue.

 

[Borys]

I think he is a project in the sense that he is someone who ETH clearly thinks must be able to take his game up a level (I too have my doubts on this). My wider point though is that whether it's Anthony or Garnacho, both are players who aren't at the level we need them to be in terms of playing at the top level and in our current team that is an issue. Normally that would be fine, e.g. you can accommodate a player with potential so in time they can realise that, but to do that you need to be confident that they senior players are reliable and will get the job done and I don't think we can rely on that in our team which is part of the problem. All of our attacking players are erratic and will frequently make bad decisions and that is an issue.

But you still talk about Antony like he's just a kid who recently broke through to serious football. He is a senior player.
With Garnacho it's clearly different, he is a guy with "all the tools", just needs to add more to his game and basically become a part of a functional team so that his decision making improves with playing time. Antony is much different, like I said in previous post, we know what he brings to the table and imo it's unfair to expect him to become a different player. We got what we paid for.

 

[zaafi]

What worries me the most is that he's been here over a year and not even one aspect of his game has improved. Still can't beat his opponent, still can't shoot, still doesn't use his right foot, still slows down our play. What does he do in the training sessions, practicing his trademark roullet spin?

He hasn't even been here a year, let alone over a year as you said.

Not that I disagree with you, but saying he can't beat his opponent when he literally showed it in both games is a bit weird. He isn't doing it regularly, but I can't see him improving that aspect much.

 

[Valencia Shin Crosses]

Antony only turned 23 in February. Are we thinking he’s got no chance of improving any aspects of his game?

23 isn’t 17. So no

 

[zaafi]

But you still talk about Antony like he's just a kid who recently broke through to serious football. He is a senior player.
With Garnacho it's clearly different, he is a guy with "all the tools", just needs to add more to his game and basically become a part of a functional team so that his decision making improves with playing time. Antony is much different, like I said in previous post, we know what he brings to the table and imo it's unfair to expect him to become a different player. We got what we paid for.

23 is relatively young for an attacker. Mahrez was playing in Ligue 2 for Le Havre at the same age.