Because you stop developing at 23?
21
Season Average Rating
- Appearances
- 36
- Goals
- 3
- Assists
- 2
- Yellow cards
- 6
Very possible given the circumstances. At least Maguire for about 18 months was quite good for how we played and had a specific specialty. Antony doesn’t have a single thing he’s really good at besides defensive actions, which is hilarious considering he’s a Brazilian winger
I wouldn't say he's one of the worst signings. His first season was decent, should have got more goals and assists but solidified himself as an important part of the team, the entire right side disappeared whenever he didnt play. Was he worth the amount we paid, no, but it is what it is. Everybody is playing bad. He definitely needs to step up though, although I'm not sure how he can actually do that as he simply does not have the strength and pace to beat his man, whilst not having elite dribbling to make up for it. I do however want to see him with a proper striker like Rasmus up to as so far he has had utter crap to work with up front.
If only he scored that chance that hit the post 
AWB is no recognised threat down the right flank whatsoever; by that I mean there is zero tactical plan put in place to stop him or even engage with him, in fact, tactically, teams are happy for him to have the ball because more often than not they don't expect him to do anything dangerous or threatening with it.
There is no doubt he is improving in this aspect and even surprising his own teams' fanbase, but it'll take a concerted period of time being a definitive contributor on the overlap for him to be considered a genuine threat.
Contrast that with the best overlapping fullbacks out there who have to be planned for because their threat is certain and has to be dealt with as succinctly as possible before they breach a backline to the point any flash ball into the box induces panic.
It is in the pockets of space proper overlappers forge that players such as Sancho, Antony and other supposed playmaking types of winger get to exploit the panic such an overlapping threat guarantees.
Sancho had Hakimi and Antony had Mazaroui at their best to date - FB's who massively affect games offensively from the outset and are/were dead certainties to do so at the time they played with the aforementioned attackers.
You can't get a Hakimi, but you still try to find the player with as many of the attributes to be a consummate overlapper to better facilitate the game of the kind of wide men who thrive because they then have extra time on the ball and spaces to run or ghost into. Such subtleties are overlooked when there's a winger who doesn't need any support of this nature to be lethal. But this is about facilitating, and it is unquestionably something certain types of wide men are going to be incomplete without.
It is annoying how others are outshining him. That Enciso kid from Brighton already looks the better player.
Endrick potential = adriano
No generational talent.
If you can't use your right foot or weight a pass at 23 I'd say its highly unlikely you can improve those aspects much. If at all.
Plenty of players never use their weak foot, that's not the problem. The problem is when he is bad in the other aspects in addition.
Antony isn't the best passer of the ball, but he has shown he can pop up with a very well weighted pass, just needs to be more consistent with it. His assist to Dalot and recently his assist to Rashford against Lens.
I am happy to be wrong but guy looks like a dud.
His vision is awful. Players can have great passing technique, but if they don't have vision they won't exploit that passing technique all that well.
Me and you can weight a pass properly now and again. That doesn't mean anything. The problem is if at 23 you're consistently unable to pass properly its very unlikely to improve much.
Same goes for being one footed. When I say one footed I mean one sided. His whole balance, his whole intention and mindset is all left, left, left. It's like there's a brickwall on his right hand side following him around the pitch. He can't shift the ball between his feet. He can't use his right for those little touches that allow you to move fluidly. Don't think I've seen another player so one side dominant.
Again, highly unlikely to improve at 23.
His decision making can hopefully kick on but it's not enough.
I severely abhore giving players the shield of “everyone is playing bad” as an excuse for poor performance. But the more damning thing with Antony is it’s not like we’ve seen a ceiling that he reaches when playing well that’s elite. He isn’t “inconsistent”. I’d argue he’s actually quite standard in his performances. Presses hard, makes some tackles, keeps the ball well under pressure, but passes like shit, constantly fecks up attacks, kills counters, and shoots a ton for how inefficient of a finisher he is.
Those aren’t things that magically get better with a different striker, or with improved team play. He’s still getting the ball a ton in dangerous positions, the service to him is excellent. The bottom line is he’s one of the least threatening wingers in the league but gets the minutes and trust from the manager as if he’s Saka or Salah.
Without question will be out there on his own once this experiment reaches its conclusion and he probably moves to Fenerbahce for 10 million in three years time.
The 4 goal a season player waltzing around with a 40 goal a season haircut…..
How come there seems to be a litany of other wingers, not just our rivals, in the league that look better than him in every aspect? What prompted us to spend such ungodly $ on him?
This isn't directed at you, and I'll preface this with I am not turning my nose up at him scoring that...If only he scored that chance that hit the post
...however, this is a huge problem with the club - this mentality right here. If he had scored that, any legitimate - and it is legitimate - criticism of his performance and the player in general would've been swept under the carpet. In the long run, this is the wrong outlook, and it's cost us for over a decade now. Ignoring a players general play in favour of stats that are used to defend a player who's clearly not good enough without the proper context is - and has been - costing us from building a top team.
Those are fair comments to a certain group but I think there's a significant number (on these forums at least) that aren't like that. See Bruno and Rashford's threads i.e our most productive players that get plenty of justified and nuance criticism. Heck, it's actually true for most of our other players like De Gea, AWB and Casemiro, who have a significant claim for definitive contributions but also get ripped to shreds for their general all around play.
It's just that there are so many dissenting voices and expectations, it's hard to find what is the middle ground. For example, for every justified criticism that Casemiro gets for his loose ball possession, some people go completely the other way ignoring his contribution, impact and then compare him to an idealised Fifa 23 version of Thiago and Arthurs like they will be the solution.
The truth is, regardless of player personnel, it's all on ETH atm. For the talent in the squad, it's his job to make it better than the sum of its part and right now it's not near there.
Receive the ball in a promising position, control it badly, jostle with defender to defend the ball, finally gain control of the ball (attack has already petered out at this point), make incorrect/weak pass or shoot to the stands, hold left hand up and apologize to all players in a 360 degree turn (sometimes twice), remember to smile while doing so.
I am not saying he's not young, I am just questioning whether it's reasonable to expect him to improve on specific deficiencies that he has (no right foot and very poor passing/crossing). This isn't something that will go away easily because he plays more games. The bad decision making isn't a problem with his head, it's more Antony being aware of his limitations. He doesn't cut back to make a slow pass inside/back because he thinks this is the best thing to do, he does it because he knows he isn't going to make "that" more difficult pass/cross. There's a reason he's the least likely player to create from all our attackers.
There was a mass of people saying that he just needs to work on his weaker foot and will be good in a year or so. This isn't going well and I never expected that to happen because it rarely does once you're an established player.
Seen alot of this over the years. Rubbish and mediocre players suddenly get a goal or an assist after months of nothing performances, and you'll see certain people telling the world how useful they are and how they're good enough for the squad. Standards are in the mud
When I look at him, and then I look at Mitoma, I feel depressed.
He has to do something to turn it around, his general play, dribbling, passing, crossing and shooting are quite bad, as in, not good enough for lower level leagues, let alone the level of elite teams, nothing is coming off for him, and he has to do something to fix all that, because he was truly crap vs Wolves & Spurs.
Its clear now he is not good enough, his ability is limited and his one footedness is embarrasing. Terrible signing and its on ETH, with his obsession for players from the Dutch league that he knows. THere are far better wingers out there. We seem to have got into another Ole situation, with the manager given free reign to hire and overrule scouts. Its not going to end well for Antony or I fear ETH
I wholeheartedly agree that it is our lack of attacking quality in the right back position that is limiting our overall attacking threat. Opponents can focus on containing Shaw's overlaps. I do not understand why the club gave up improving that position.
It would also mean we could play Sancho on the right, whom we urgently must start to actually use. It would also improve the situation when Bruno is put on the right side.
We were reportedly after Leverkusen's Frimpong who would fit the bill just perfectly. The noise around that transfer has died however, instead all points to the club wanting to go forward with Dalot and Wan Bissaka.
On no other single position do we have such a lack of individual quality. Leverkusen just signed another excellent RB in Bayern's Stanisic so you have to assume getting Frimpong might still be possible.
What is certain though is that he would not be any cheaper than a month or two ago, after putting in a MOTM performance, scoring and assisting in the big game opener against Leipzig.
Frustrating.
We don’t have the money to upgrade that position this summer. AWB is doing a decent job so far and will hold the position until such times as we think about upgrading it.
I dont subscribe to the theory that it’s the RB position holding Antony back. Multiple times AWB has overlapped and Antony passes the ball backwards or sideways. His decision making as a winger is very frustrating
so accurateHonestly Adama Traore would’ve been a decent signing for our right, his pace alone makes him better than Antony. It’s not like Antony is any more productive than Adama .
Could ETH be restricting him abit ?
Or is it just the simple fact that he's just not good enough for this level ?
Or is it just the simple fact that he's just not good enough for this level ?
The more I watch him, the more I actually put this on ETH. Because you can see Antony is a very limited player and should not be considered a first XI player at any ambitious, top club. It's almost unfair on him (Antony).
He's absolutely awful. Tried to give him time as I thought at times last season he worked hard and at least brought balance to the side but he offers nowhere near enough, other than the odd worldie. The number of fecking times either someone makes an angled run ahead of him and no pass comes due to him having no right foot, or he has space to cross but turns back, is absolutely infuriating. Drop him.
I think the plan is to prioritise key areas of the pitch and then deal with the edges, so to speak - in base terms, we’re working by what’s the worst and weakest and therefore in the quickest need of address, which isn’t illogical, but still leaves a supposed marquee signing to make do rather than optimising a game that is otherwise very lacking. I referred to the overlapping fb being Antony’s “right foot” in a previous post because that’s what Mazraoui was. Any width into right-footed crossing action came from Antony holding up play in anticipation of the FB bombing on past him for him to then have a relatively easy lay off for a subsequently easy right-footed cross or driving run to be made - nobody then complains about no right foot or expectation because the FB is providing that incessantly.
None of our FB’s are incessantly providing penetrating actions and often Antony looks quite unsure of what to do with himself because the very easy and simple system and support network is absent where at Ajax it all moved like clockwork. Thus we are asking a player whose limitations have always been covered/masked to do more than he ever has - it is backward logic that is opposite to supporting the supposed marquee player.
It’s a tad ironic that AWB is showing growth in the overlapping aspect, still it’s night and day when compared to someone like Frimpong.
The bottom line here, however, is in evaluating player worth vis-a-vis accommodation and facilitation; you move heaven and earth for special players; you cater to good players and if the talent is so-so, they have to make do… Antony’s more the type you have make do… or subbed out for another to have a go in the same conditions that are hindrances to his game, for me… it just so happens that we have another two playmaking winger types who also would benefit massively from an overlapping FB, so essentially it’s a hodgepodge of squad assembly with one problem after another even if you look inward for solutions.
Still, back to Antony and him being bought for a marquee price; it is odd then that his game wasn’t immediately catered for so he would be performing under optimal conditions to deliver whatever it is he is supposed to as this must-have marquee player.
I'm not really sure what you're trying to say here tbh.
All the highlight reals that convinced the likes of yourself about his star quality, were just displaying how average he was. There was no standout attribute to him, that would make him a viable attacking threat for us. And they were highlight reels from Ajax - where he had the optimal conditions to succeed - but he looked about as average as a winger could be.
Going beyond that, even in the Eridivisie he gave you a mediocre return in productivity. He got 8 goals and 4 assists in his last season in the Eridivisie in 1700 minutes (a goal or an assist every 140 minutes). That's in a much weaker league than the PL and as you say with his optimal team conditions.
So we should've known exactly what we were going to get over in the PL - he was going to face more challenging defenders and a higher level of competition. And the natural toolset he had wasn't going to keep up with the level of competition he was due to face. If by some scenario we catered to his specific needs, you end up creating a team catering to the needs of a forward who (at most) gets you a goal or an assist every 140 minutes.
He is like a player that once watched someone play Fifa 94, and did the guaranteed goal from cutting in from the left and curling one in across the keeper, and then just stuck with it forever.
I liken him to Arjen Robben in a way, but without the end product. Everyone knew Robben was going to cut in and lash one at goal, but the difference was he would score more regularly and also go outside on occasion as well.
I liken him to Arjen Robben in a way, but without the end product. Everyone knew Robben was going to cut in and lash one at goal, but the difference was he would score more regularly and also go outside on occasion as well.
Learning football would probably be a better start.
He’s nowhere near it at this level. Mental from the club to pander to the manager so hard for a player who wasn’t even putting up good numbers for Ajax. Will potentially go down as one of the worst €100m signings, and that’s saying something.
Dunno, but at Ajax he was a different player with loads of tricks and he was taking people on left right and center.(albeit the Dutch league is pretty trash when it comes to defending)
It looks mental with him, maybe he's not adapted yet to the country/league/lifestyle, maybe the situation with his girlfriend affects him, have no clue but he looks like he forgot how to play football.
Young players are supposed to grow and improve when they hone their craft, which is why purchases are also based on potential and likelihood of upward trajectory. This obviously means someone like Antony getting sharper, smarter and more decisive in thought and execution, particularly so under optimal conditions which provide no impedance to growth. Whatever we might think of Antony, those conditions for growth have not only not been met; they (here) are conditions for a serious stumbling block or crisis of identity as all the foundation for growth up until that point in his career have been ripped from underneath him. In that sense, almost the exact same thing has happened to Sancho, and it also happened to Pogba here. They all played with better players who facilitated and complemented their game, making it very clear and easy for them to remain on course with their development without impingement. Antony isn’t the special talent the other two are, but the same applies nonetheless.
Your numbers don’t carry much relevance as any but the true young prodigies will have low output at the ages Antony was before absolutely exploding into life. That is as old as football and the number of truly great players that back that will dwarf the prodigies who are anomalous.
With regard to his game, that would depend upon what you thought he could improve upon or hone, but to me, it mostly comes down to intelligence and the ability to understand and manipulate. We know under these (our) conditions, Antony absolutely wilts and looks lost; what we won’t know is how he would approach the game in optimal conditions with a supposed maturer brain and understanding of his position i.e. with an equivalent Mazraoui talent flanking him and the aggression and smarts he was accustomed to at Ajax on his inside channels. Whatever I or anyone else thinks of the player, we bought him as a marquee talent and haven’t facilitated his game or provided the conditions that he was bought off the back of. You should never buy a marquee talent for those massive outlays if you’re not going to cater to their game. I don’t care who it is; you can even say the same for Maguire; once you front that kind of money, you have etched your position in stone and should support it, otherwise not buy the player.
As it stands, it’s more moot for an Antony or a Maguire because their talent doesn’t warrant changing a team or system for, but that doesn’t betray the underlying point, and whichever manager is responsible for bringing in really expensive players is responsible for their growth, development and facilitation. I’m not sure a single manager has got that right since Fergie left, and to further drive this point home, Van Persie is an example of what this refers to; the manager brought him in as a marquee talent and then made the team play to his game and strengths.
Lastly, this point about lower leagues doesn’t have much carryover - more talent come from, or make their name from lesser leagues than don’t.
This is objective posting. My personal, subjective position on the player is still that his talent is not great enough to pander to, but then I didn’t buy him for an obscene amount of money and he wouldn’t be my idea of what a marquee purchase is.
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Do you think he has what is takes to be a top RW at a club like United?
Or even better a key player at RW in a PL side trying to win the PL?
it seems only ETH likes him - he needs to be dropped
I'd honestly throw his name into the Saudi transfer melee - he isnt going to make it at Old Trafford - sell him and limit the losses
I'd honestly throw his name into the Saudi transfer melee - he isnt going to make it at Old Trafford - sell him and limit the losses