Antony under investigation by Brazilian authorities for domestic abuse | Back in the squad

[adexkola]

You're oddly insistent that taking a stand is meaningless.

I think considering the huge amounts of domestic and sexual violence, the fear to report and disproportionately small conviction stats any stand is far from meaningless and I know rape victims who agree. They feel isolated and disguarded every day of their lives because as well as the injury, they see no support in the society in which they live.

Yes man I think victims should be supported through tangible means. Such as

Reducing rape kit backlogs
Educating men on sexual assault, consent
Pushing for more cases to be prosecuted regardless of conviction rates

Anything that gets abusers (proven as such through court or through clear and convincing evidence in the public domain) in jail, and tangibly changing nasty behavior, I'm all for it, and all for society (including football clubs) investing resources in doing so.

 

[spiriticon]

Sadly we have to bow down to the media and public demands because sponsorships are the only way we make money this days. We certainly don't get prize money for winning stuff

What ever the public wants, the public gets. As long as they just keep buying the merchandise. We can't afford to have a negative public perception.

In any case, if he is charged by the police for a grave crime he must be suspended.

 

[fallengt]

Why would United fans be as concerned about an Arsenal player?

I mean media.

 

[adexkola]

Ah the aul refuge in selective nihilism. It's becoming quite common.

Utilitarian. Definitely anti-Kant

 

[Widow]

As if by magic they’ve released a statement saying nothing.

https://www.manutd.com/en/news/detail/man-utd-issue-statement-on-antony

What did you expect? It's an ongoing investigation so there isn't much to say

 

[Kostov]

Men and women don't report abuse.

What's your point?

Larger percent of male victims don't report abuse, compared to female victims, that was the point.

 

[MancunianAngels]

Yes man I think victims should be supported through tangible means. Such as

Reducing rape kit backlogs
Educating men on sexual assault, consent
Pushing for more cases to be prosecuted regardless of conviction rates

Anything that gets abusers (proven as such through court or through clear and convincing evidence in the public domain) in jail, and tangibly changing nasty behavior, I'm all for it, and all for society (including football clubs) investing resources in doing so.

This is the main one.
Encouraging young men to be respectful shouldn't be a big thing.

 

[moses]

Utilitarian. Definitely anti-Kant

A lot of Utilitarians would be shocked by association. Myself included!

 

[Kostov]

it's both. They weren't proven to be guilty or proven to be innocent. Innocent until proven guilty is not the same as proof of innocence.

Same as Greenwood. Neither were proven innocent.

You only need to be proven guilty of something for you to get the consequences, they don't need to be proven innocent.

 

[moses]

Larger percent of male victims don't report abuse, compared to female victims, that was the point.

Is that true?

Even if so it's a larger percentage of a smaller number.

None of which alters the real figures of 1.7 million women being the victims of domestic abuse.

My initial point, that you took issue with was that this number dwarfs the number of men abused and falsely accused.

The false accusations is what the discussion was about befure you took umbrage.

 

[AdamColeBebe]

What are the examples of football people being proven innocent you are thinking of?

Google it?

 

[hobbers]

At least the club arent being led around on a leash by the angry twitter mob, so far.

 

[adexkola]

And not a single comment on Arsenal who have been even more spineless than United. For what it’s worth, United absolutely did the correct thing, and didn’t bungle it, by suspending him with pay while the police were investigating and he was subsequently charged.

Once the charges were dropped, and United didn’t have access to the evidence in those original charges, it became very difficult for United - whatever their decision was, it was handled badly. But that doesn’t override the fact that they did the right thing initially.

There no credit for making the wrong decision and standing by it, like Arsenal have done.

Ok, definitely agree with the bolded.

My definition of spineless here is being unable to make a decisive decision, good or bad (if you can place labels then fine but this is more fluid IMO). You can make a good decision and still be spineless if how you make that decision is indecisive or forced.

 

[adexkola]

A lot of Utilitarians would be shocked by association. Myself included!

I had you as more of a deontologist

 

[moses]

I had you as more of a deontologist

Mill is alongside Marx for me.

 

[Rolaholic]

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I don't understand, so the club is being accused of trying to cover up the crime even though it was United doctors who helped her and the allegations still went public over the summer??

Licensed medical professionals wouldn't ever publicize any treatment or issues they work on regardless in most circumstances by law...

 

[DRJosh]

He should be shown the door regardless as we rightly did with Greenwood. There is no smoke without fire.

 

[King7Eric]

You can’t lump the Greenwood and Antony cases in together. Greenwood’s case was one of a kind because of the evidence that went public. Evidence neither the club nor the player have been able to explain away ever since. So the club is entitled to respond to the reputational damage that they would incur if Greenwood turned out to play for them every weekend.

Obviously, the Antony situation is different. And I’m sure he’d have been given the same protection that any other of the many other footballers who’ve faced similar accusations over the years. If it wasn’t for the Greenwood case creating a precedent. So it’s all a bit of a mess.

Sure Greenwood was an exceptional case, but I'm talking more in general. And it's not just about criminal offenses. People expecting football clubs or footballers to do the "right thing" ( Henderson going to Saudi after expressing support for homosexual rights as an example) is not something I understand. These people are in it for the profit and money. If you believe there is anything more to it then it's your fault.

No reasonable person should expect any morality from football clubs or footballers. Support them for their on pitch skills but that's about it.

The Greenwood case has created a precedent by which an inherently immoral entity is now trying to follow a moral path, but they will have to pick and choose where to apply those morals. It will lead to only one thing, as you put it- a mess.

 

[rooneyberbatov]

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I don't understand, so the club is being accused of trying to cover up the crime even though it was United doctors who helped her and the allegations still went public over the summer??

Medical professionals wouldn't ever publicize any treatment or issues regardless in any circumstances

Allegedly it was a club’s employee who was called to the scene. If true then this doesn’t look good for the club as it’s not on the club’s employee to treat players’ significant others. They should’ve called an ambulance.

 

[Mr Pigeon]

What is a domestic abuse expert?

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I don't understand, so the club is being accused of trying to cover up the crime even though it was United doctors who helped her and the allegations still went public over the summer??

Medical professionals wouldn't ever publicize any treatment or issues regardless in any circumstances

That's potentially part of the problem though isn't it? United doctors were aware that something had happened (at the very least they knew about the injuries) months ago, and you'd imagine that they'd report it to their superiors. The club are very close and connected to these incidents, one way or the other.

 

[Adisa]

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I don't understand, so the club is being accused of trying to cover up the crime even though it was United doctors who helped her and the allegations still went public over the summer??

Licensed medical professionals wouldn't ever publicize any treatment or issues they work on regardless in most circumstances by law...

They are duty-bound to report suspicions if someone is abused.
This case like Mason's is a mess.

 

[cyberman]

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I don't understand, so the club is being accused of trying to cover up the crime even though it was United doctors who helped her and the allegations still went public over the summer??

Licensed medical professionals wouldn't ever publicize any treatment or issues they work on regardless in most circumstances by law...

Yeah this is the bit that puts doubt in my mind. The club aren’t covering up fecking domestic abuse as if they’re mafia doctors.
Maybe it is and we are dickheads

 

[JuriM]

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I don't understand, so the club is being accused of trying to cover up the crime even though it was United doctors who helped her and the allegations still went public over the summer??

Licensed medical professionals wouldn't ever publicize any treatment or issues they work on regardless in most circumstances by law...

Seems like fishing by the lawyer to get a payday. Nobody can't be that stupid to cover anything up.

 

[obesouro]

Could a club really try to cover this up? I mean, if all we care about is money, it would certainly be tempting – reading that Sports Witness post – it's certainly quite detailed and names people who would be key witnesses – therefore, I'm concerned that there could be something in it.

I mean, we've just signed him for 95 million euros not 5 months ago, and now we potentially have exactly the same issue which caused us to sign him in the first place. For me, that could be a motive to do something as stupid as trying to hush this up or willfully ignore the situation.

Also, "covering up" could mean not going to the authorities to report what happened and turning a blind eye. All speculation of course but not entirely out there to be dismissed out of hand.

Another thing that I thought of just now: Ste Howson, yesterday in one of his videos, alluded to the fact that; stuff gets covered up all the time. He specifically mentioned a case where a United player drove through someone's living room whilst under the influence and that got covered up.

 

[King7Eric]

Take, for example, this comment of yours:



The lunatic you're talking about here is Leon McCaskre. What you're claiming is that he was trying to kill his ex, Yasmin Chkaifi. This is, in my opinion, an extremely reasonable thing to believe. There were tons of witnesses, after all, and Chkaifi unfortunately ended up dying. Attempting to kill someone is a very serious crime, though, and if you want to consistently apply "innocent until proven guilty" outside of the courtroom then you cannot say that he was trying to kill anyone, or that he stabbed anyone, even though he clearly did. McCaskre was never convicted of anything, and because he is dead he never will be. He is, in the eyes of the law, an innocent man. He is also a murderer.

This is a very clear-cut case, of course. Other cases are less so, or the evidence might not be publicly available, so there's less certainty about guilt or innocence than in McCaskre's case, but that's not because of any legal principle. People are perhaps more likely to believe women in rape and domestic violence cases specifically, but that is a specific change in how people weigh up evidence. It is not a change in people going from "innocent until proven guilty" to not.

I lose sense of the point you are trying to make.

 

[moses]

Yeah this is the bit that puts doubt in my mind. The club aren’t covering up fecking domestic abuse as if they’re mafia doctors.
Maybe it is and we are dickheads

If there are suspicions of certain crimes I think they are obliged to report it. I'm not positive.

 

[Beachryan]

Really?

You really think "Now we seem to have swung to the point where the twitter mob are the judge, jury and executioner"


That's part of the best take in your opinion?


If Antony is proven innocent this will have been a painful experience no doubt. Certainly not executed.

If it was me falsely accused. I'd sue whoever did it and hammer them in the press.

It rarely happens.

Obviously executioner is meant metaphorically, no one is saying Antony will die. But. If this investigation goes on, say, another year, over in Brazil, before charges are eventually dropped (obviously hypothetical). What percentage of football fans do you think will be of the view: Oh yes, Antony had that mess with the accusation, but that was all cleared up, now we'll just forget that ever happened. Because currently these charges stick at the point of allegation, and are rarely cleared up in the public discource.

For the best example, see Amanda Knox. Her name is still associated with a horrific murder she had no part in, because the media narrative sticks.

For the justice system to truly be the arbiter here, the allegations, evidence and all should not be aired in the media. We should really be hearing about it once the verdict is passed down by officials, at which point it's fine for the public to form an opinion.

Instead, the media is forming an opinion right now. The club and the player are both receiving massive negative coverage in the media before a single official process has even started investigating anything. And I believe that's wrong, and potentially dangerous precedent. Because make no mistake, the club will be forced to take one of two actions here:

1. Respond to public scrutiny by saying there's an official investigation and any footballing decision will be made after that concludes. This will result in the twitter mob continuing to demand Antony is banned until such conclusion.
2. Bench Antony for unknowable period of time pending the outcome of the official investigation. Which will obviously damage his career, the club's chances of success and still won't be enough for many in the public sphere, certainly those most vocal in the media.

Because the victim has decided to do this in public, the club and player are damned either way.

 

[MackRobinson]

What are the examples of football people being proven innocent you are thinking of?

As far as I'm concerned Mendy was innocent. Degenerate yes, but rapist no.

 

[maniak]

As far as I'm concerned Mendy was innocent. Degenerate yes, but rapist no.

is OJ innocent?

 

[sullydnl]

As soon as it was reported that United's club doctors had treated her after an alleged attack, it was fairly clear that there was a risk United would be accused of helping Antony keep things "in-house" by having their employees treat her.

And something that would help the club ballast itself from such allegation would be not having been roundly criticised for a botched and tone-deaf mishandling of another abuse allegation weeks prior. As well as being (to a lesser extent) criticised for their approach to some allegations surrounding Ronaldo/Giggs.

There are consequences to that sort of self-inflicted reputational damage and one of them is that people are not inclined to give you the benefit of the doubt when it comes to your handling of these situations.

 

[Rolaholic]

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[MackRobinson]

is OJ innocent?

Not sure why that matters

 

[maniak]

Not sure why that matters

I'm not referring to Mendy's case specifically, but a lot of people are being absolutist about the justice system. We know guilty people walk free all the time, so why should the justice system be the sole metric by which someone forms their opinion about someone's guilt or innocence?

"I don't care about the images, video or audio, he was not convicted so for me he's innocent" is a silly position to have.

Again, not referring to any case specific, but in general.

 

[Vault Dweller]

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I don't understand, so the club is being accused of trying to cover up the crime even though it was United doctors who helped her and the allegations still went public over the summer??

Licensed medical professionals wouldn't ever publicize any treatment or issues they work on regardless in most circumstances by law...

Fecking hell, that's quite an allegation.

 

[Big Ben Foster]

He should be shown the door regardless as we rightly did with Greenwood. There is no smoke without fire.

There is, as of now, zero direct evidence that we know of. This is not at all equivalent to the Greenwood situation.

 

[The holy trinity 68]

How come United have to bow down to media and public scrutiny?

Chelsea had Alonso in their team for years. Partey was still being selected for Arsenal, whilst under rape allegations less than a year ago.

 

[Hugh Jass]

Seems like fishing by the lawyer to get a payday. Nobody can't be that stupid to cover anything up.

This.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

For the best example, see Amanda Knox. Her name is still associated with a horrific murder she had no part in, because the media narrative sticks.

Isn't she mainly known for being wrongfully accused?

 

[King7Eric]

I'm not referring to Mendy's case specifically, but a lot of people are being absolutist about the justice system. We know guilty people walk free all the time, so why should the justice system be the sole metric by which someone forms their opinion about someone's guilt or innocence?

"I don't care about the images, video or audio, he was not convicted so for me he's innocent" is a silly position to have.

Again, not referring to any case specific, but in general.

How do you apply this non-absolutist policy though? It then becomes arbitrary. Laws or the justice system are by no means perfect. But they are the least worse of the available options. In an age where pretty much anything can be doctored, if there is nothing that needs to be proven in the court of law, then how do we decide who to believe?

 

[cyberman]

If there are suspicions of certain crimes I think they are obliged to report it. I'm not positive.

If it’s a lie or exaggerated then it could be a way to cover up the fact she didn’t get medical attention and doesn’t have a doctor to back her claims up. Oh United club doctors saw me and now they’re lying to cover for their their player.
I’d say we will know pretty soon since it’s a grave accusation for the club