Should we not be trying Bruno in a deeper position. He has on occasions played there and surprised me with the restraint he's showed and racking up high pass completion stats when he really wants to. How he plays must be a manager instruction or he'd be dropped. We surely have to make this move to try and get more control on games as it's totally unsustainable conceding 25+ shots every game. If he played in a 3 with Mainoo and Mount and we prioritised a defensive shape with players behind the ball instead of charging aimlessly after it surely we'd be in better shape. Atleast until the summer until we get the right players in the weaker positions.
Are Bruno and Rashford a problem?
- Thread starter The Oracle
- Start date
Great post.
When the whole team is not performing, people can easily pick on any specific player to bash. There are many factors that can cause a season going badly. If the manager think Bruno is not effective, he can switch it up with another player. However, Mount was not available while Eriksen is too weak to play, then ETH's option is to keep playing Bruno and luckily he did not have injury and always worked hard.
Same goes with Rashford. If ETH has a better winger than him, do we think he would keep playing Rashford in most games? No, he would drop him to play someone else. Sancho was crap so ETH kicked him out didn't he? His remaining choice was basically Antony, that is on him that is who he bought. Perhaps he should try Amad more but that is a different story.
The fact that people have been complaining that we should buy better winger and we did, Antony and Sancho, and none of them are as good as Rashford to play regularly.
Yeah I've been thinking this lately too, mostly since the crazy Liverpool Cup game where Bruno actually showed some surprisingly okay positional sense and passing range when playing deeper. More luck than judgement on Ten Hag's part as he had to replace injured defensive players for more attacking ones.
That twinned with Mount's surprisingly decent defensive work rate in recent games makes me think maybe Ten Hag wasn't completely batty when thinking they could work in a midfield together. It's just a bit ridiculous that I'm now thinking we may as well try it for the rest of season, but without the designated DM of Casemiro as I'm sure was the intention...as if Bruno and Mount both press higher up then Casemiro would be a lame duck with his completely lack of mobility nowadays.
Whereas if you went for a different shape of two DM/CMs in Bruno and Mainoo and CM/AM of Mount, then hopefully designating more defensive responsibility to Bruno would prevent him running around like a headless chicken whilst Mount wouldn't be such a loose cannon as the most advanced of the three (on paper, in theory they could interchange as a much more fluid 3 as they are all much more mobile than Casemiro and show more game intelligence on and off the ball than McTominay)
Might still be shite, but it's got to be better than watching Casemiro waddle around for the rest of the season not even bothering to chase shadows.
Only focusing on goals, though, instead of overall performance.
Both Bruno and Rashford can net goals and assists while still playing poorly.
And again, only focusing on goals, whilst completely ignoring every other phase of the game.
This is surface level analysis. And you do this quite a lot
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Rashford was excellent last season by any measure, let’s not play silly cnuts here. Would be as daft as anyone arguing he’s been good this year.
Pretty certain you didn’t watch his debut season with LvG if you think goals was all he did.
He was absolutely not excellent last season. His goal tally was really good, yes. But everything else was just as poor as it always has been. Running into dead channels, poor decision making, losing possession, misplaced passes, weak in the air except for a few moments, no effort put into duels, lacklustre pressing... Not to mention going months on end being absolutely awful. The list goes on and on.
Of course I watched him under LvG. Had already been watching United for 20 odd years then. He has not evolved or changed his playing style since his first year. Still the same player he always has been, with the same few strengths and many, many weaknesses. Mind you, it certainly was impressive back then to see a young kid running and scoring a few goals. But it was evidently clear even then that he had severe limitations to his game, most of which I've already listed above. Nothing has changed since then.
Are you going to provide a more descriptive analysis of his (or Brunos) game than just listing goal involvements? Because if not, this discussion is over before it even began.
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Look fella, you’re an absolutely astonishingly awful judge of talent, hence why this discussion was always over before it began.
I have no issues accepting how poor Rashford has been this season, he’s been awful. However, when a poster claims Rashford wasn’t excellent last season and over 50% of his posts since joining are about that same player, well it’s hard to take said poster seriously. Here’s some of your greatest hits…
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Saying Bruno and Rashford are the "problem" is an oversimplification, in my opinion. They both have talent that can significantly enhance a team's performance under the right conditions. They excel when the team is already doing well, contributing moments of brilliance that can change the outcome of games. However, the real issue, as I see it, is whether their personalities are suited to be the central figures in a team, especially one facing challenges.
Both players are at their best when the team is in good form, bringing creativity and a decisive touch that can be devastating to opponents. But when the team is struggling and needs leaders to guide them, Bruno and Rashford's ability to step up comes into question. It's not about their effort or desire; it's more about the type of leadership they provide.
Ideally, a team with a strong foundation can benefit from having such talented players to add an extra dimension to their play. However, for a team lacking a strong core, relying on them as the main pillars may not meet those needs.
Both players are at their best when the team is in good form, bringing creativity and a decisive touch that can be devastating to opponents. But when the team is struggling and needs leaders to guide them, Bruno and Rashford's ability to step up comes into question. It's not about their effort or desire; it's more about the type of leadership they provide.
Ideally, a team with a strong foundation can benefit from having such talented players to add an extra dimension to their play. However, for a team lacking a strong core, relying on them as the main pillars may not meet those needs.
@Regulus Arcturus Black I'd share some of your greatest hits, but there are simply too many contenders and not enough time. You also seem to basically live your life on the forum, so the amount of posts is staggering. I'll let you carry on life, calling people c*nts, obsessing over Thunberg and whatnot.
Anyway, back to the topic at hand.
Please explain how you can say that Rashford has ever had an excellent season, beyond counting goals and assists. Because you seem awfully reluctant to do so.
Anyway, back to the topic at hand.
Please explain how you can say that Rashford has ever had an excellent season, beyond counting goals and assists. Because you seem awfully reluctant to do so.
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Madness how we compare the two players,for attitude alone rashford has to go, no successful team would tolerate the lack of interest he’s shown in either 2020-21 21-22 or 23-24 it’s just not good enough, we wouldn’t accept it in our local amateur team let alone a team aspiring for top honours,
Struggle to see how Bruno one of the best signings post sir alex if not the best has been randomly lumped in with Marcus on this thread, Bruno’s always available and always puts his all in, doesn’t cause a Fuss of-field and always liable to pop up with a contribution, take the Liverpool game for example doesn’t play his best but scores a worldie to equalise and is last man back tackling the Liverpool forward in the last few minutes, just madness how he’s spoken about on here, glad that actual fans going to the game don t seem to share the viewpoint of many in here !!!
Struggle to see how Bruno one of the best signings post sir alex if not the best has been randomly lumped in with Marcus on this thread, Bruno’s always available and always puts his all in, doesn’t cause a Fuss of-field and always liable to pop up with a contribution, take the Liverpool game for example doesn’t play his best but scores a worldie to equalise and is last man back tackling the Liverpool forward in the last few minutes, just madness how he’s spoken about on here, glad that actual fans going to the game don t seem to share the viewpoint of many in here !!!
Not a single manager has been willing to drop him no matter how poor he is, and he's largely played the same way since coming in. So I don't think that's true, as well as now you have the "team leader and captain" stigma that comes with potentially dropping him. Just sell him in the summer for a decent fee and move on. It's time to evolve.
The Mods must all be anti-Bruno otherwise you would have a like for this.
I think people have a tendency to look at footballers only through the lens of their recent form, and make sweeping generalisations about the sort of player they are. I think this does the player, and our squad building strategy a disservice.
I think this is particularly relevant to Bruno. People see him as a high risk, high reward type player, who when it doesn’t come off, is a liability to the team. Whereas I tend to think that the way he is currently playing is at least partially symptomatic of the way he’s being told to play.
Inherently, Bruno has that quality of being able to make quick, one touch incisive passes forwards. Killer balls, so to speak. But this season he has tried them with alarming regularity. It’s the type of pass that is so risky, it more often than not gets cut out. So if he is constantly trying it, he’s also constantly giving the ball away.
But anyone who has watched him over the seasons knows that, while he has that capability and proclivity, he also has a number of other qualities, including the quality of being more judicious in his final ball attempts. In my mind it’s ridiculous to think that he’s solely playing the way he is because he feels like it, and is much more likely to be following the instructions of the manager who seems to be prioritising rapid transitions rather than valuing possession. This conclusion is evident in almost everything we do, including the positioning of our midfielders which leaves us brutally exposed to the counterattack.
I’ve seen Bruno cover a lot of ground, I’ve seen him play sensibly, I’ve seen him track back; I’ve seen him do all the things a good midfielder should do. And I think it would be daft to think that under a different manager, with different instructions, he wouldn’t look a different player. A player we have seen in the past. I’d even go as far as to say that there is a player there that we haven’t even seen yet. It’s just waiting for the right manager to seek it out. Some players, like Bruno, have enough overall quality, that they are highly adaptable to multiple positions, roles, and importantly…..approaches.
There is a tendency in football, especially in emotional charged environments - like fan forums or debates - to throw the baby out with the bath water. This is especially acute when identifying the need for a new regime. Bruno, in the current case, would be that baby. But a good manager should always be able to make a team greater than the value of its individual parts. And a good manager should be able to take a player like Bruno, who has the workrate, goal threat, technical ability, and passion to match the best of them, and turn him into a top class, if not world class, performer. I think we all know what Bruno would look like under a manager like Klopp. He would be ferociously effective.
With FFP restrictions, and well….the realities of life, there is very much going to be a substantial case of needing to work with what we have, for the next manager. We aren’t going to be able to replace 5, 6, or 7 starters. That is financially implausible, and frankly, would also be a case of bad management. A good manager should be able to bring substantial improvements out of many of the players we have, by changing the way we play, adhering to the strengths of the key players in the squad, and coaching the team to be far more cohesive than they currently are.
While player X might not be THE optimal solution for position Y, that doesn’t mean that with the proper coaching and instructions, they can’t perform to a very high level in that position. It’s just a question of finding a way to align their qualities with the various needs of the position, and securing their buy in to the project. For example, no one could have told me that Antoine Griezmann would perform as a world class number 8 for France. But, he’s done exactly that, becoming their key performer.
Bruno, and no one can tell me otherwise, has all the qualities to be a top class 8 or 10 for this club; whether he will be, is entirely dependent on how he’s coached. This whole notion that we have to keep replacing the squad from top to bottom, is just nonsensical, wasteful thinking. We have to extract the best we can from the players we have, and augment it with 2-3 astute, well thought out additions within our financial means.
There will always be cases when a player doesn’t work. For a multitude of reasons. And moving those players on is something we have to do better. But we’ve bought some very good players over the years, who have struggled to perform consistently, and dropped off alarmingly after a spell at the club. That comes down to the environment, the coaching, the mentality, the organisational buy in. And it starts at the top. Hopefully we are addressing that with the changes being made at a top end executive and technical level, through Ratcliffe, Brailsford, Berrada, Ashworth, Wilcox, and maybe Freedman. We also need a coaching change. Whoever comes in, is likely going to need to work with players like Bruno, Mount etc., who are quality international players, not currently playing in a system that gives them the opportunity to be effective contributors to the team.
I think this is particularly relevant to Bruno. People see him as a high risk, high reward type player, who when it doesn’t come off, is a liability to the team. Whereas I tend to think that the way he is currently playing is at least partially symptomatic of the way he’s being told to play.
Inherently, Bruno has that quality of being able to make quick, one touch incisive passes forwards. Killer balls, so to speak. But this season he has tried them with alarming regularity. It’s the type of pass that is so risky, it more often than not gets cut out. So if he is constantly trying it, he’s also constantly giving the ball away.
But anyone who has watched him over the seasons knows that, while he has that capability and proclivity, he also has a number of other qualities, including the quality of being more judicious in his final ball attempts. In my mind it’s ridiculous to think that he’s solely playing the way he is because he feels like it, and is much more likely to be following the instructions of the manager who seems to be prioritising rapid transitions rather than valuing possession. This conclusion is evident in almost everything we do, including the positioning of our midfielders which leaves us brutally exposed to the counterattack.
I’ve seen Bruno cover a lot of ground, I’ve seen him play sensibly, I’ve seen him track back; I’ve seen him do all the things a good midfielder should do. And I think it would be daft to think that under a different manager, with different instructions, he wouldn’t look a different player. A player we have seen in the past. I’d even go as far as to say that there is a player there that we haven’t even seen yet. It’s just waiting for the right manager to seek it out. Some players, like Bruno, have enough overall quality, that they are highly adaptable to multiple positions, roles, and importantly…..approaches.
There is a tendency in football, especially in emotional charged environments - like fan forums or debates - to throw the baby out with the bath water. This is especially acute when identifying the need for a new regime. Bruno, in the current case, would be that baby. But a good manager should always be able to make a team greater than the value of its individual parts. And a good manager should be able to take a player like Bruno, who has the workrate, goal threat, technical ability, and passion to match the best of them, and turn him into a top class, if not world class, performer. I think we all know what Bruno would look like under a manager like Klopp. He would be ferociously effective.
With FFP restrictions, and well….the realities of life, there is very much going to be a substantial case of needing to work with what we have, for the next manager. We aren’t going to be able to replace 5, 6, or 7 starters. That is financially implausible, and frankly, would also be a case of bad management. A good manager should be able to bring substantial improvements out of many of the players we have, by changing the way we play, adhering to the strengths of the key players in the squad, and coaching the team to be far more cohesive than they currently are.
While player X might not be THE optimal solution for position Y, that doesn’t mean that with the proper coaching and instructions, they can’t perform to a very high level in that position. It’s just a question of finding a way to align their qualities with the various needs of the position, and securing their buy in to the project. For example, no one could have told me that Antoine Griezmann would perform as a world class number 8 for France. But, he’s done exactly that, becoming their key performer.
Bruno, and no one can tell me otherwise, has all the qualities to be a top class 8 or 10 for this club; whether he will be, is entirely dependent on how he’s coached. This whole notion that we have to keep replacing the squad from top to bottom, is just nonsensical, wasteful thinking. We have to extract the best we can from the players we have, and augment it with 2-3 astute, well thought out additions within our financial means.
There will always be cases when a player doesn’t work. For a multitude of reasons. And moving those players on is something we have to do better. But we’ve bought some very good players over the years, who have struggled to perform consistently, and dropped off alarmingly after a spell at the club. That comes down to the environment, the coaching, the mentality, the organisational buy in. And it starts at the top. Hopefully we are addressing that with the changes being made at a top end executive and technical level, through Ratcliffe, Brailsford, Berrada, Ashworth, Wilcox, and maybe Freedman. We also need a coaching change. Whoever comes in, is likely going to need to work with players like Bruno, Mount etc., who are quality international players, not currently playing in a system that gives them the opportunity to be effective contributors to the team.
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He is too risky in deeper positions he’s not disciplined enough and he will turn over balls in worse positions than what we are seeing today.
100% agreed with every word, @simonhch.
I like your analysis. Just to add, it is not easy to adapt in our club, we have seen a number of world class players that came and went away without impact, whereas Bruno has been with us through thick and thin, mostly thin. He did not create salary demand, off pitch scandal, put his head down and worked hard.
I am no fan of his football style either, I prefer more calm head midfielders like Mainoo, but atm we need Bruno to stay and help the team going through this tough period. Same as Rashford, people tend to complain about his salary but forget that he is our free youth. Had he not sign the new deal with us previously, he would have gone to a different club and get the same deal if not better anyway. He was our top scorer last season and proven that he can be great. This season is a forgetable season, we need address issues in other positions and the right thing to do is to keep both to fight in next season
People might have that tendency in general but for Bruno and Rashford these are concerns that span years and seasons. To imply that this is because of recent form is disingenuous or delusional.
Of course the coaching and tactics have an impact but we've seen Bruno under three managers now and he has displayed the same weaknesses time and time again.
The quality you claim he has of being more judicious in his passing is one he has rarely shown. The idea that because the manager wants quick transition play that is the reason he plays those balls with alarming regularity is an attempt to conflate to separate things and push the blame from Bruno and ETH onto just ETH. Bruno plays those passes because that's how he wants to play. At least you recognize that he has been constantly giving the ball away and has been a liability.
Nobody knows how Bruno would perform under Klopp and to claim he would be ferociously effective is just fantasy. Bruno has been playing this way under three managers now. To claim that there is still more to unlock from a 29 year old who has been playing the same way for years is wishful thinking.
You say he has all the qualities to be a top class 8 or 10 for this club so lets see those qualities you mention one by one:
The ability to make killer passes: You say yourself it's high risk and he gives the ball away more often than not. A top class 8 or 10 would make those passes successful more often than not
Passion: Could care less. Was Giggs passionate? Scholes? Ruud? all the city players? Talent over passhun every single time
Workrate: Bruno works hard but not smart, in fact he often runs out of position and leaves huge gaps for others to fill.
Goal threat: Maybe ETH has instructed him to shoot like a blind musketeer and that's why his shooting has been horrific for a few seasons now. Most of his goal threat comes from the early few months when we got a lot of pens and he took them all. I trust Dalot with a shot more than Bruno.
Technical ability: You're going to have to be more specific. He can't dribble, he can't hold the ball, he is weak physically and mentally, is the first to turn to crap when things aren't going well for the team. His one ability is the quick passes and quick thinking but like has already been shown he does not have the technique to pull it off more than half the time. You mention griezman who is a player that actually has technical ability. If you honestly compare the two you should see the difference.
You want to put all of Bruno's shortcomings on the coach who is about to be fired and basically absolve him of all his shortcomings. No coach will be able to get him to stop making braindead decisions or to become stronger or to be able to dribble or to start to become a player who can control tempo and understand the rhythm of a game. He thrives in chaos because he is a chaotic player by nature. The fact that in your fantasy you mention Klopp and not Pep shows even you recognize his limitations.
The rest is just waffle about FFP and how coaching affects players and how Player X might not be optimal etc. These are general points that apply to all players not just Bruno. Of course player X will be better with better players around him, of course our parasitic owners and their footballing criminals haven't helped, of course we can't sell the whole team etc.
I asked this question in the Bruno thread and might as well ask it here too since i only got one reply there. I think it's safe to assume Bruno and Mainoo will be two of our midfield starters next season. Think of a third midfielder if you can who would slot into that third midfield role and make that trio a top class cohesive midfield. For portugal they usually play two defensive midfielders and push one of Bruno or Bernardo into the attacking three to make it work. Bruno in a midfield three will always put incredible pressure on his two partners because of how often he loses the ball and how weak he is physically. Could he play better in a better system with better players ? Of course but that is true of every player ever.
Lastly you mentioned FFP. FFP is the exact reason we should be looking to move on from Bruno and Rashford. they are two of our biggest earners and they are two players who are trending downwards who we would get decent money from in the open market. Just like Arsenal sold Sanchez, Auba and Ozil to start their rebuild, we should do the same and not expect that old dogs are suddenly going to learn new tricks.
@Desert Eagle Excellent post.
He certainly wasn't.
Kin ell man.
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His teammates, our fans, (and you incidentally) picked him as our player of the year because he was clearly excellent.
We can talk about how shit Rashford has been this season without pretending he was anything other than excellent last season.
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Rashford is very inconsistent, he seems to be very bad when he is out of form and very streaky when he is inform. The other problem is we have Rashford, Bruno and Garnacho in attack, three players who can go from very good to very bad within seconds, all not very good on the ball in terms of keeping it and not great at dribbling and in tight spaces. In an ideal world you only want one of those in addition to your striker and the other two should be players capable of respecting the ball and keeping it. When you add Casemiro to that front 6, you have 5/6 of your players not good in tight spaces and not decent in keeping the ball.
We need only two of our front 6 to be those erratic risk takers not 5. We certainly have our work cut for us.
We need only two of our front 6 to be those erratic risk takers not 5. We certainly have our work cut for us.
@Regulus Arcturus Black Yet again, you're just pointing to numbers or awards without any descriptive analysis of his game that made him "excellent".
He was picked solely on the back of his goals, nothing else. Just like how these awards usually go. Who usually wins MOTM? The guy who gets the goal, not necessarily the player who actually plays the best overall.
This happens all the time in football. It's a phenomenon called outcome bias. Most people just look at who's got the goals, and that's where all the plaudits go.
And that's probably why you're over in the Jack Grealish thread, with no chance of grasping how monumentally beneficial a winger like him is to improving possession and control in a team. Grealish will never be the goal threat Rashford is, yet he is such a more pivotal and instrumental player than Rashford can ever be. Why? Because he rarely gives away the ball, and constantly creates space and positional superiority for his team. Pep didn't sign Grealish to score goals or entertain. He signed him to keep control in matches, because that's what ultimately brings you trophies. Control (Possession and positional superiority) is by far the number one metric that most consistently correlates to a lot of goals, and not many conceded. And you will never truly understand how or why, until you learn to look beyond just surface level stats like goals.
Football is a team sport. Just because Rashford got about 18 Premier League goals last season, it didn't make us any better as a team.. We still scored almost exact same amount of goals we had the year before with Ronaldo, and we are right on track to score just as many goals this season (avg. of 1.5 goals per match, to be precise).
We need players who make sure we keep possession. That's the only way we can consistently create more and better chances, whilst also reduce shots against. You can still be good on the counter if you like, but possession needs to improve or it is impossible to actually control games. Look at Liverpool. They blend high possession with counterattacking football. It's not as effective or sustainable as Pep's more controlled approach. But it's a lot better than letting Bruno and Rashford kick and run. And that's exactly why a player like Grealish is so much better and more important to success than Rashford. He will improve the team by providing control, thus leading to more goals for the team, regardless of who actually happens to score them. In the end, it doesn't matter who scores a goal. It's the team that needs goals to climb the table, not individual players.
You seem completely incapable of understanding his. And just keep spouting out non-arguments like lists of goals or awards. Instead of pointing to yet another list of goals or awards, tell us exactly how Rashford improves us tactically. What skills does he have that makes us play better as a team, with more possession and control? You know, the type of football that actually is necessary to win the Premier League on a consistent basis.
Players like Shaw (when fit), Martinez (also when fit, sadly) and Mainoo... Those are the types of players we need. That's the sort of players with attributes that improve our control and possession, and actually make us a better team. Or in other words, the direct antithesis to the type of players Rashford and Bruno are.
It's quite absurd how you (and some others) can't seem to grasp this, no matter what. Yet you still manage to see that Mainoo is a fantastic player... That's baffling. Maybe try thinking about exactly how and why Mainoo is so good? What is it exactly about him that makes him so special in our team? You know, besides the obvious: He is a young academy graduate. It's his attributes. And what are his attributes? His press resistance, his ability to dictate tempo, and his ability to keep it simple and recycle possession. Just the very opposite of Bruno and Rashford. And not coincidentally, the exact same attributes that makes players like Jack Grealish and Declan Rice so damn good as well.
I swear, there are 12 year olds who can grasp this. Yet there are so many grown men who can't seem to analyse football beyond counting numbers of goals. Staggering.
He was picked solely on the back of his goals, nothing else. Just like how these awards usually go. Who usually wins MOTM? The guy who gets the goal, not necessarily the player who actually plays the best overall.
This happens all the time in football. It's a phenomenon called outcome bias. Most people just look at who's got the goals, and that's where all the plaudits go.
And that's probably why you're over in the Jack Grealish thread, with no chance of grasping how monumentally beneficial a winger like him is to improving possession and control in a team. Grealish will never be the goal threat Rashford is, yet he is such a more pivotal and instrumental player than Rashford can ever be. Why? Because he rarely gives away the ball, and constantly creates space and positional superiority for his team. Pep didn't sign Grealish to score goals or entertain. He signed him to keep control in matches, because that's what ultimately brings you trophies. Control (Possession and positional superiority) is by far the number one metric that most consistently correlates to a lot of goals, and not many conceded. And you will never truly understand how or why, until you learn to look beyond just surface level stats like goals.
Football is a team sport. Just because Rashford got about 18 Premier League goals last season, it didn't make us any better as a team.. We still scored almost exact same amount of goals we had the year before with Ronaldo, and we are right on track to score just as many goals this season (avg. of 1.5 goals per match, to be precise).
We need players who make sure we keep possession. That's the only way we can consistently create more and better chances, whilst also reduce shots against. You can still be good on the counter if you like, but possession needs to improve or it is impossible to actually control games. Look at Liverpool. They blend high possession with counterattacking football. It's not as effective or sustainable as Pep's more controlled approach. But it's a lot better than letting Bruno and Rashford kick and run. And that's exactly why a player like Grealish is so much better and more important to success than Rashford. He will improve the team by providing control, thus leading to more goals for the team, regardless of who actually happens to score them. In the end, it doesn't matter who scores a goal. It's the team that needs goals to climb the table, not individual players.
You seem completely incapable of understanding his. And just keep spouting out non-arguments like lists of goals or awards. Instead of pointing to yet another list of goals or awards, tell us exactly how Rashford improves us tactically. What skills does he have that makes us play better as a team, with more possession and control? You know, the type of football that actually is necessary to win the Premier League on a consistent basis.
Players like Shaw (when fit), Martinez (also when fit, sadly) and Mainoo... Those are the types of players we need. That's the sort of players with attributes that improve our control and possession, and actually make us a better team. Or in other words, the direct antithesis to the type of players Rashford and Bruno are.
It's quite absurd how you (and some others) can't seem to grasp this, no matter what. Yet you still manage to see that Mainoo is a fantastic player... That's baffling. Maybe try thinking about exactly how and why Mainoo is so good? What is it exactly about him that makes him so special in our team? You know, besides the obvious: He is a young academy graduate. It's his attributes. And what are his attributes? His press resistance, his ability to dictate tempo, and his ability to keep it simple and recycle possession. Just the very opposite of Bruno and Rashford. And not coincidentally, the exact same attributes that makes players like Jack Grealish and Declan Rice so damn good as well.
I swear, there are 12 year olds who can grasp this. Yet there are so many grown men who can't seem to analyse football beyond counting numbers of goals. Staggering.
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Fernandes works hard, you have to give him that. If Rashford had his work-rate he'd be close to a useful player. But despite being industrious he's too careless with the ball, positionally ill-disciplined and tries to be the player he needs to be a much better player to be. Both are examples of where stats often don't give a true reflection on their value to a team. You can score a goal in a 3-1 defeat, but it's your sloppiness in possession, failing to do the ground work defensively or the fact you decided to waste three other great chances in the game by running the ball into the legs of a defender rather than looking up to play in a team mate that's a big contributory factor in the defeat. Yet according to some/most you've had a great game. Because you've scored.
The next match it's the same, a 1-1 draw, you wasted possession a lot and ran repeatedly into blind alleys wasting almost every chance we had at creating something but you got an assist for the goal we did score. Next game you score a penalty in a 2-1 defeat but otherwise contribute little else and at least one of the goals was your fault because you left the man you were supposed to be tracking go.
"He's playing really well, two goals and an assist in three matches" - will be the analysis. Both Fernandes and Rashford are that player. Stats mask the fact their overall contribution is atrocious. They're the '1' in a 3-1 defeat. And we'll never progress until we stop putting players like that on a pedestal and centring the club around them.
The next match it's the same, a 1-1 draw, you wasted possession a lot and ran repeatedly into blind alleys wasting almost every chance we had at creating something but you got an assist for the goal we did score. Next game you score a penalty in a 2-1 defeat but otherwise contribute little else and at least one of the goals was your fault because you left the man you were supposed to be tracking go.
"He's playing really well, two goals and an assist in three matches" - will be the analysis. Both Fernandes and Rashford are that player. Stats mask the fact their overall contribution is atrocious. They're the '1' in a 3-1 defeat. And we'll never progress until we stop putting players like that on a pedestal and centring the club around them.
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feck me someone has an inflated opinion of himself
Here’s @ifightdragons from redcafe, who knows better than professional footballers playing for Manchester United what makes an excellent season for a player.
Weird rant about Grealish too, who I think is an excellent player and I’ve been nowhere near his thread except to agree that Pep often makes football joyless as Grealish kept possession and won fouls equally as well at Villa but has been forced to forgo some of his more exciting qualities to fit a Pep system. That’s simply because I prefer Klopp-esque football with control but risk over Pep’s super low risk, just a matter of taste.
I’ve actually defended Antony’s inclusion many times last season due to the exact important reason you mention, whilst Rashford provided the goals, he provided the outball and the ability to maintain possession. Something I think we dearly miss with Garnacho and Rashford on the wings.
Think you need to take a minute and calm yourself. Myself, the Manchester United squad (Players player), tonnes of pundits, the fan award (Sir Matt player) thought Rashford had an excellent season last year. Most, including myself think he’s having a shit one this season.
You simply have your own opinion, and just because you have a massively inflated opinion of yourself, doesn’t mean that yours is the one true correct opinion that causes you to go off on rants like this.
I preferred you better when you were constantly in the Dean Henderson thread telling everyone how he was certain to be a superstar. We can all have differing opinions, it’s o….. k.
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Hopefully sold this summer.
@Regulus Arcturus Black Okay, I get it. You're actually just incapable of providing any argument besides listing awards. Third time in a row you've done so, while failing to actually highlight what made his season so excellent.
"He must have had an excellent season, because them awards there say so. Oh, and there were goals"
How can you basically have spent most of your 10 last years on here, and still not be able to actually form a cohesive argument beyond that? Like seriously, you basically live your life on this website... But all you really do is constantly call people "feckin c*nts".
Won't bother trying to extract any meaningful discussion out of you. I'll let you get back to the Greta Thunberg (what the hell...) thread and be weird.
"He must have had an excellent season, because them awards there say so. Oh, and there were goals"
How can you basically have spent most of your 10 last years on here, and still not be able to actually form a cohesive argument beyond that? Like seriously, you basically live your life on this website... But all you really do is constantly call people "feckin c*nts".
Won't bother trying to extract any meaningful discussion out of you. I'll let you get back to the Greta Thunberg (what the hell...) thread and be weird.
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Your argument is basically that his own teammates, professional footballers all of them, don’t know what an excellent season is because you have your own criteria for that in which he didn’t fulfil.
Do you understand how daft that argument is?
He was excellent because he was a constant threat, helped us to our second best points tally since Fergie, and with Antony providing the balance and possession on the other wing (without a threat), he gave us the ability to win games whilst having more possession as he took the burden of threat from Antony so that we could have that possession and balance on the other wing.
That incredible threat from one wing made us a much better team, with much more control in matches. This season you see exactly the issue, neither Garnacho or Rashford give the secure possession option, nor the defensive ability of Antony, but both have to play as we have so few goals in the side. We're playing almost anyone who has a goal threat now and forfeiting possession due to it. McTominay's another getting far too many minutes because we don't carry enough threat in the team.
I can’t however make any argument as to why he was excellent when he didn’t live up to your own made up criteria can I?
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But thats based on the assumption that Bruno isnt following ETH's instructions and just does as he pleases. Based on how we have played this season, and based on the fact that our whole midfield seems like headless chickens, isnt it far more likely that the problems stems from the coaching and the set up?
Comparing Bruno to Bernardo and Odegaard is apples and oranges. The latter two play in well oiled posession machines and not in a chaotic, disjointed mess of a set up
Are you having a strange morning? I made one post in the Greta thread earlier this week and it was to question Plant0x84 who appears to believe Greta isn't helping anything as humans eventually do the right thing without civil disobedience or protest.
Have you confused yourself in both the Grealish and Greta threads now? is this because of Dean Henderson, did it really touch such nerve, surely not? I mean, I've made equally awful predictions about players myself*, we all have, so you don't have to desperately go crawling through thread to thread to find something odd I've said, there's plenty of it. Or are you so irrational just due to your feelings about Rashford?
(* convinced Adnan would be an absolute superstar for example, thought Anderson was gonna be incredible).
Are you ok?
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Jesus, this got personal. I wonder what the real big Caf hitters think of this.
My average of 7 posts a day is pretty low in the grand scheme.Obsessing over Greta = 4 posts in 1.5 years (https://www.redcafe.net/search/517497/)
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Come on now. During our good period(s) with Ole he was phenomenal. 15 G/A in 17 matches in 19/20, 29 G/A the season after, and that was under a manager most of the Caf thought to be utterly unqualified for the job
We've all seen what hes capable of when we play well as a team. We could have prime Iniesta in there and he would look like shit in the current set up
We as fans all have our blind spots whether it comes to managers or the players but eventually reality dawns on everybody , for Rashford and Bruno most are there some who are still burying their head in the sand its just matter of time .
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Sure but Bruno was also terrible for Ole the season he got sacked and people blamed it on Ronaldo. I think there is enough of a sample size to show its a player issue more than a manager issue. Not to say the manager doesn't have his own problems.
We've seen plenty of players have good periods but over the long run show that they are not consistent enough to be top performers.
Ps. Mods promote ifightdragons already
Hmmmm is that true?
5 assists in 4 CL games before the sacking.
7 goals contributions in the league in 12 games before the sacking.
Obviously that aint the full story but to say he was terrible that season? For what it’s worth I don’t think it was all Ronaldo’s fault either. Many other players were much worse than those two.
He was a good goal scorer that masked the lackadaisical play we've seen this season.
This.
S/he has an inflated opinion of themselves. Not compared to yoursfeck me someone has an inflated opinion of himself
Here’s @ifightdragons from redcafe, who knows better than professional footballers playing for Manchester United what makes an excellent season for a player.
Weird rant about Grealish too, who I think is an excellent player and I’ve been nowhere near his thread except to agree that Pep often makes football joyless as Grealish kept possession and won fouls equally as well at Villa but has been forced to forgo some of his more exciting qualities to fit a Pep system. That’s simply because I prefer Klopp-esque football with control but risk over Pep’s super low risk, just a matter of taste.
I’ve actually defended Antony’s inclusion many times last season due to the exact important reason you mention, whilst Rashford provided the goals, he provided the outball and the ability to maintain possession. Something I think we dearly miss with Garnacho and Rashford on the wings.
Think you need to take a minute and calm yourself. Myself, the Manchester United squad (Players player), tonnes of pundits, the fan award (Sir Matt player) thought Rashford had an excellent season last year. Most, including myself think he’s having a shit one this season.
You simply have your own opinion, and just because you have a massively inflated opinion of yourself, doesn’t mean that yours is the one true correct opinion that causes you to go off on rants like this.
I preferred you better when you were constantly in the Dean Henderson thread telling everyone how he was certain to be a superstar. We can all have differing opinions, it’s o….. k.
I’m agreeing with you, ifightdragons & a tonne of other people that Rashford has been shit this season.S/he has an inflated opinion of themselves. Not compared to yours
I agreed with his peers, the pundits, his fans & his manger that he was excellent last season. (Considering you had him and Bruno in your top 3 players of the year I’d say I agreed with you also?).
My opinion isn’t arguing the masses are incorrect and that I’m fact right, if anything I’m the sheep here; so not sure how that equates to me having an inflated opinion of myself?
Meanwhile ifightdragons is claiming his peers, pundits, fans etc were all incorrect last year & that he knows better.
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